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ggtyler

Joined: 05 Mar 2016
Posts: 29

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:01 am Post subject: Yak52TW stranded, anyone have Air near Winslow, AZ?

Any fellow Red Star Pilots near Winslow AZ have air? The fellow that purchased my Yak 52TW is out of air in Winslow, and in need. It's your chance to be a hero of this story!  If you can help, please drop Jim a call at (469) 491-9068.

saber369(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:06 am Post subject: Yak52TW stranded, anyone have Air near Winslow, AZ?

Ask the local fire department.  



Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Nov 15, 2020, at 09:04, ggtyler <ggtyler(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Any fellow Red Star Pilots near Winslow AZ have air? The fellow that purchased my Yak 52TW is out of air in Winslow, and in need. It's your chance to be a hero of this story!  If you can help, please drop Jim a call at (469) 491-9068.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499375#499375

wamflight(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:39 pm Post subject: Yak52TW stranded, anyone have Air near Winslow, AZ?

Can he find Nitrogen? There must be a Praxair or Airgas around there some where….

Airplane mechanics have nitrogen for struts.



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Nov 16, 2020, at 2:05 AM, Comcast <saber369(at)comcast.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Ask the local fire department.  

 

 Sent from my iPhone

 

> On Nov 15, 2020, at 09:04, ggtyler <ggtyler(at)gmail.com> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> Any fellow Red Star Pilots near Winslow AZ have air? The fellow that purchased my Yak 52TW is out of air in Winslow, and in need. It's your chance to be a hero of this story!  If you can help, please drop Jim a call at (469) 491-9068.

> 

> 

> 

> 

> Read this topic online here:

> 

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499375#499375

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

> 

>

ggtyler

Joined: 05 Mar 2016
Posts: 29

Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: Yak52TW stranded, anyone have Air near Winslow, AZ?

He got it started. Thank you for the ideas!

markbitterlich(at)embarqm
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:45 am Post subject: Yak52TW stranded, anyone have Air near Winslow, AZ?

Interesting enough, not one mechanic at EWN has high pressure air, or nitrogen.  Of course I do,  because when I went looking and found nothing I went out and got some!  The A&P's here use a strut pump.   Airgas is a good idea, as is the fire department.  



I'm curious why no one mentioned just hand propping the engine?  It is relatively easy given the low compression ratio of the stock M-14.  Properly primed and pulled through it has always started in one pull for me (chocked and chained down).



Of course it's a moot point since he got air and got it started, but for those that start with air, it's probable that sooner or later this is going to happen to all of us. 



Mark

--

Saj

Joined: 30 Mar 2019
Posts: 7

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:27 am Post subject: Yak52TW stranded, anyone have Air near Winslow, AZ?

Hi Mark

Could you explain the proper technique for hand starting an M14? I think mine would start right up but I have never had the balls to try it. I have also never been shown the proper way to do it. 



Steve

Sent from my iPad



[quote] On Nov 16, 2020, at 8:48 AM, Mark Bitterlich <markbitterlich(at)embarqmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Interesting enough, not one mechanic at EWN has high pressure air, or nitrogen.  Of course I do,  because when I went looking and found nothing I went out and got some!  The A&P's here use a strut pump.   Airgas is a good idea, as is the fire department.  

 

 I'm curious why no one mentioned just hand propping the engine?  It is relatively easy given the low compression ratio of the stock M-14.  Properly primed and pulled through it has always started in one pull for me (chocked and chained down).

 

 Of course it's a moot point since he got air and got it started, but for those that start with air, it's probable that sooner or later this is going to happen to all of us. 

 

 Mark

 

 

 --

pjashura

Joined: 19 May 2014
Posts: 15
Location: Elbert, CO

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 6:27 am Post subject: Yak52TW stranded, anyone have Air near Winslow, AZ?

I agree with Mark if it’s a two blade prop. I personally would not hand prop my three blade prop, and that’s why I carry an aluminum scuba tank (lots of room in the 18T). 

PJ Ashura



Sent from my iPhone



[quote] On Nov 16, 2020, at 06:52, Mark Bitterlich <markbitterlich(at)embarqmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Interesting enough, not one mechanic at EWN has high pressure air, or nitrogen.  Of course I do,  because when I went looking and found nothing I went out and got some!  The A&P's here use a strut pump.   Airgas is a good idea, as is the fire department.  

 

 I'm curious why no one mentioned just hand propping the engine?  It is relatively easy given the low compression ratio of the stock M-14.  Properly primed and pulled through it has always started in one pull for me (chocked and chained down).

 

 Of course it's a moot point since he got air and got it started, but for those that start with air, it's probable that sooner or later this is going to happen to all of us. 

 

 Mark

 

 

 --

_________________
PJ Ashura

markbitterlich(at)embarqm
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:46 pm Post subject: Yak52TW stranded, anyone have Air near Winslow, AZ?

Hi Steve, 



Well, there are lots of folks that have their own method, and I am sure many can improve on mine, so anyone that feels like it, please jump in. 



First, there are some things you need to know first.  Most important is what type of mags you have.  Are they M9F's with fixed timing and "shower of sparks" system, or the mechanical advance mags with possibly a booster coil?  



Before going there, the most important thing about hand propping the M-14 is how you prepare the engine beforehand.  This applies equally to starting WITH air.  If you have an intake drain system, you prime the crap out of the engine (cold or hot) as in about 5 strokes or so (or even more), and then immediately get out and start pulling the prop through.  Obvious safety cautions apply here.  MAGS off and previously verified that MAG switch DOES kill the engine.  Regardless be careful.  Plane chocked AND tied down.  I have pictures of my spare YAK-50 that shows what happens if you skip that step.  



Pull the prop through at least 5 blades or so.  Wait for the excess gas to drain out of the intake drain.  If no gas comes out.... stop.   It is clogged with oil and you must prime it more and more and more until the oil thins and finally gas drains out.  This only happens in really cold weather with heavy weight oil but it is *KEY* that as you are pulling the prop through, you *SEE* the excess gas coming out.  If this doesn't happen for any reason, stop.  Do not go any further.  It is possible to hydro lock the pistons with gas, and if excess fuel does not drain out, you're risking that.  Now close intake drain valve. 



Assuming excess gas came out of the drain, assuming you stopped pulling through where you are ready to pull the prop to start, have someone get in the cockpit, turn on the mags, hold down the start button, you will hear the shower of sparks buzz and then pull the prop through one stroke.  Have the primer pump pulled out and ready for the guy in the cockpit to catch the engine starting and add prime.  



No start?  Mags off.  Pull prop through until compression stroke where you want it, mags back on, try it again.   If no start after all this.... mags off, re-prime, pull it through a lot, try again, have intake drain open.. etc. .  That being said, the latter has NEVER happened to me.  



You can practice this during normal starts.  Apply this technique, get back in the cockpit and hit the start button, with lots of air.  It will normally start on the first blade.  If it does not start by the second blade, stop.  Do the whole procedure again.  If you do this, you will never run the airplane out of air.  Normally running out of air happens when someone pulls the prop through many times to clear the oil.  Then does not prime and pull it through again.  They just jump in, prime it and then hit the start button.  This works..,., but uses more air, and can sooner or later leave you with NO air.  



I've seen M-14's start with no air, no start button being depressed.... no prime at all, and one pull on the prop.  It happened with a very experienced pilot pulling the prop through with one mag P lead disconnected.  The prop hit him and threw him 10 feet into the air.  He survived.  



But priming and pulling the engine through (with an intake drain) is the secret.   Without the intake drain, things get kind of dicey and I am not going to go there.  



For those that want to slay me alive, please have at it.  I am SURE there are other methods out there. 



Mark

--

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:47 pm Post subject: Yak52TW stranded, anyone have Air near Winslow, AZ?

The only thing I would add, particularly if you are not nearly as tall as Mark B (6’7”) and short like me, Is stand behind the prop and in front of the left wing and pull down. This is just in case the airplane lurches and scares the bejesus out of you. 

Dennis



Sent from my iPad



[quote] On Nov 16, 2020, at 6:48 PM, Mark Bitterlich <markbitterlich(at)embarqmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi Steve, 

 

 Well, there are lots of folks that have their own method, and I am sure many can improve on mine, so anyone that feels like it, please jump in. 

 

 First, there are some things you need to know first.  Most important is what type of mags you have.  Are they M9F's with fixed timing and "shower of sparks" system, or the mechanical advance mags with possibly a booster coil?  

 

 Before going there, the most important thing about hand propping the M-14 is how you prepare the engine beforehand.  This applies equally to starting WITH air.  If you have an intake drain system, you prime the crap out of the engine (cold or hot) as in about 5 strokes or so (or even more), and then immediately get out and start pulling the prop through.  Obvious safety cautions apply here.  MAGS off and previously verified that MAG switch DOES kill the engine.  Regardless be careful.  Plane chocked AND tied down.  I have pictures of my spare YAK-50 that shows what happens if you skip that step.  

 

 Pull the prop through at least 5 blades or so.  Wait for the excess gas to drain out of the intake drain.  If no gas comes out.... stop.   It is clogged with oil and you must prime it more and more and more until the oil thins and finally gas drains out.  This only happens in really cold weather with heavy weight oil but it is *KEY* that as you are pulling the prop through, you *SEE* the excess gas coming out.  If this doesn't happen for any reason, stop.  Do not go any further.  It is possible to hydro lock the pistons with gas, and if excess fuel does not drain out, you're risking that.  Now close intake drain valve. 

 

 Assuming excess gas came out of the drain, assuming you stopped pulling through where you are ready to pull the prop to start, have someone get in the cockpit, turn on the mags, hold down the start button, you will hear the shower of sparks buzz and then pull the prop through one stroke.  Have the primer pump pulled out and ready for the guy in the cockpit to catch the engine starting and add prime.  

 

 No start?  Mags off.  Pull prop through until compression stroke where you want it, mags back on, try it again.   If no start after all this.... mags off, re-prime, pull it through a lot, try again, have intake drain open.. etc. .  That being said, the latter has NEVER happened to me.  

 

 You can practice this during normal starts.  Apply this technique, get back in the cockpit and hit the start button, with lots of air.  It will normally start on the first blade.  If it does not start by the second blade, stop.  Do the whole procedure again.  If you do this, you will never run the airplane out of air.  Normally running out of air happens when someone pulls the prop through many times to clear the oil.  Then does not prime and pull it through again.  They just jump in, prime it and then hit the start button.  This works..,., but uses more air, and can sooner or later leave you with NO air.  

 

 I've seen M-14's start with no air, no start button being depressed.... no prime at all, and one pull on the prop.  It happened with a very experienced pilot pulling the prop through with one mag P lead disconnected.  The prop hit him and threw him 10 feet into the air.  He survived.  

 

 But priming and pulling the engine through (with an intake drain) is the secret.   Without the intake drain, things get kind of dicey and I am not going to go there.  

 

 For those that want to slay me alive, please have at it.  I am SURE there are other methods out there. 

 

 Mark

 

 

 --

Saj

Joined: 30 Mar 2019
Posts: 7

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:52 pm Post subject: Yak52TW stranded, anyone have Air near Winslow, AZ?

Thanks for the information. Could you talk a little about the process of actually pulling the prop through? How do you hold it  and how do you make sure you dont get hit when the engine starts?



Steve

Sent from my iPad



[quote] On Nov 16, 2020, at 6:49 PM, Mark Bitterlich <markbitterlich(at)embarqmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hi Steve, 

 

 Well, there are lots of folks that have their own method, and I am sure many can improve on mine, so anyone that feels like it, please jump in. 

 

 First, there are some things you need to know first.  Most important is what type of mags you have.  Are they M9F's with fixed timing and "shower of sparks" system, or the mechanical advance mags with possibly a booster coil?  

 

 Before going there, the most important thing about hand propping the M-14 is how you prepare the engine beforehand.  This applies equally to starting WITH air.  If you have an intake drain system, you prime the crap out of the engine (cold or hot) as in about 5 strokes or so (or even more), and then immediately get out and start pulling the prop through.  Obvious safety cautions apply here.  MAGS off and previously verified that MAG switch DOES kill the engine.  Regardless be careful.  Plane chocked AND tied down.  I have pictures of my spare YAK-50 that shows what happens if you skip that step.  

 

 Pull the prop through at least 5 blades or so.  Wait for the excess gas to drain out of the intake drain.  If no gas comes out.... stop.   It is clogged with oil and you must prime it more and more and more until the oil thins and finally gas drains out.  This only happens in really cold weather with heavy weight oil but it is *KEY* that as you are pulling the prop through, you *SEE* the excess gas coming out.  If this doesn't happen for any reason, stop.  Do not go any further.  It is possible to hydro lock the pistons with gas, and if excess fuel does not drain out, you're risking that.  Now close intake drain valve. 

 

 Assuming excess gas came out of the drain, assuming you stopped pulling through where you are ready to pull the prop to start, have someone get in the cockpit, turn on the mags, hold down the start button, you will hear the shower of sparks buzz and then pull the prop through one stroke.  Have the primer pump pulled out and ready for the guy in the cockpit to catch the engine starting and add prime.  

 

 No start?  Mags off.  Pull prop through until compression stroke where you want it, mags back on, try it again.   If no start after all this.... mags off, re-prime, pull it through a lot, try again, have intake drain open.. etc. .  That being said, the latter has NEVER happened to me.  

 

 You can practice this during normal starts.  Apply this technique, get back in the cockpit and hit the start button, with lots of air.  It will normally start on the first blade.  If it does not start by the second blade, stop.  Do the whole procedure again.  If you do this, you will never run the airplane out of air.  Normally running out of air happens when someone pulls the prop through many times to clear the oil.  Then does not prime and pull it through again.  They just jump in, prime it and then hit the start button.  This works..,., but uses more air, and can sooner or later leave you with NO air.  

 

 I've seen M-14's start with no air, no start button being depressed.... no prime at all, and one pull on the prop.  It happened with a very experienced pilot pulling the prop through with one mag P lead disconnected.  The prop hit him and threw him 10 feet into the air.  He survived.  

 

 But priming and pulling the engine through (with an intake drain) is the secret.   Without the intake drain, things get kind of dicey and I am not going to go there.  

 

 For those that want to slay me alive, please have at it.  I am SURE there are other methods out there. 

 

 Mark

 

 

 --

hess737(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:40 am Post subject: Yak52TW stranded, anyone have Air near Winslow, AZ?

Steven

We had to hand prop a Yak-52 down in TX a few weeks ago after the main air system went to zero and no one had air that weekend. 



We chocked both mains and primed as per a normal start. The mechanic who helped me did the pull from behind the prop on the left side. 



I left the front mag switch off and pushed and held the start button at the same moment he pulled a blade. The engine started quite normal and easy on the shower of sparks. Then and only then I flipped the mag switch on. 



It went easier than I thought it would. But we only did this as a last ditch option. We sat there and built up air pressure and the rest of the day starts we’re done in the normal way. 



Richard Hess

C 404-964-4885



[quote] On Nov 16, 2020, at 8:53 PM, Steven Johnson <sajdds(at)comcast.net> wrote:

 

 

 

 Thanks for the information. Could you talk a little about the process of actually pulling the prop through? How do you hold it  and how do you make sure you dont get hit when the engine starts?

 

 Steve

 Sent from my iPad

 

> On Nov 16, 2020, at 6:49 PM, Mark Bitterlich <markbitterlich(at)embarqmail.com> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> Hi Steve, 

> 

> Well, there are lots of folks that have their own method, and I am sure many can improve on mine, so anyone that feels like it, please jump in. 

> 

> First, there are some things you need to know first.  Most important is what type of mags you have.  Are they M9F's with fixed timing and "shower of sparks" system, or the mechanical advance mags with possibly a booster coil?  

> 

> Before going there, the most important thing about hand propping the M-14 is how you prepare the engine beforehand.  This applies equally to starting WITH air.  If you have an intake drain system, you prime the crap out of the engine (cold or hot) as in about 5 strokes or so (or even more), and then immediately get out and start pulling the prop through.  Obvious safety cautions apply here.  MAGS off and previously verified that MAG switch DOES kill the engine.  Regardless be careful.  Plane chocked AND tied down.  I have pictures of my spare YAK-50 that shows what happens if you skip that step.  

> 

> Pull the prop through at least 5 blades or so.  Wait for the excess gas to drain out of the intake drain.  If no gas comes out.... stop.   It is clogged with oil and you must prime it more and more and more until the oil thins and finally gas drains out.  This only happens in really cold weather with heavy weight oil but it is *KEY* that as you are pulling the prop through, you *SEE* the excess gas coming out.  If this doesn't happen for any reason, stop.  Do not go any further.  It is possible to hydro lock the pistons with gas, and if excess fuel does not drain out, you're risking that.  Now close intake drain valve. 

> 

> Assuming excess gas came out of the drain, assuming you stopped pulling through where you are ready to pull the prop to start, have someone get in the cockpit, turn on the mags, hold down the start button, you will hear the shower of sparks buzz and then pull the prop through one stroke.  Have the primer pump pulled out and ready for the guy in the cockpit to catch the engine starting and add prime.  

> 

> No start?  Mags off.  Pull prop through until compression stroke where you want it, mags back on, try it again.   If no start after all this.... mags off, re-prime, pull it through a lot, try again, have intake drain open.. etc. .  That being said, the latter has NEVER happened to me.  

> 

> You can practice this during normal starts.  Apply this technique, get back in the cockpit and hit the start button, with lots of air.  It will normally start on the first blade.  If it does not start by the second blade, stop.  Do the whole procedure again.  If you do this, you will never run the airplane out of air.  Normally running out of air happens when someone pulls the prop through many times to clear the oil.  Then does not prime and pull it through again.  They just jump in, prime it and then hit the start button.  This works..,., but uses more air, and can sooner or later leave you with NO air.  

> 

> I've seen M-14's start with no air, no start button being depressed.... no prime at all, and one pull on the prop.  It happened with a very experienced pilot pulling the prop through with one mag P lead disconnected.  The prop hit him and threw him 10 feet into the air.  He survived.  

> 

> But priming and pulling the engine through (with an intake drain) is the secret.   Without the intake drain, things get kind of dicey and I am not going to go there.  

> 

> For those that want to slay me alive, please have at it.  I am SURE there are other methods out there. 

> 

> Mark

> 

> 

> --

dbflr

Joined: 26 Apr 2015
Posts: 13
Location: PA

Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: Yak52TW stranded, anyone have Air near Winslow, AZ?

there's much safer and more efficient way of doing it than pulling a live prop by hand.  grab a piece of rope and make a pocket at one end to envelope blade's tip, but not tight so it can slip when prop rotates about 90deg.  then pull from a distance.  actually it's a standard "ground support" tool for bigger radials.



or get rid of air start system completely. just fuggedaboutit !  have almost new electric start kit if anyone is interested

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