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Revmaster R2300 Ignition

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dj_theis

Joined: 28 Aug 2017
Posts: 56
Location: Minnesota

Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:45 pm Post subject: Revmaster R2300 Ignition

My question is related to the VW derivative, Revmaster 2300 and the ignition control wiring.  The Remaster manual has a description of the ignition as a CDI powered by 2 independent and internal coils on the flywheel.  The ignition system has 8 coils (one on each plug).



Run up and testing is done by turning off (via pulling to ground) the equivalent of "P" leads for each of the 4 independent ignition circuits.  During normal run-up the operator might kill the top plugs by bringing two of the switches to ground (equivalent of maybe right or left on a dual magneto system).



OK, that is probably more confusing than it needs to be but here is my question.  I'm thinking it might be useful / advantageous, to use a traditional ignition switch.  So, Attached is my scenario where I've included four relays to pull the CDI ignition to ground from the ignition switch.  Question, using automotive relays, would the coil current be detrimental to the life of the ignition?  Any other reason this would not work?



Thanks for your consideration.

Revmaster 2300 r11a -ingnition ckt.pdf

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Dan Theis
Scratch building Sonex #1362
Still working on the Revmaster Alternator improvement

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:45 am Post subject: Revmaster R2300 Ignition

At 05:45 PM 4/6/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "dj_theis" <djtheis58(at)gmail.com>



 My question is related to the VW derivative, Revmaster 2300 and the ignition control wiring.  The Remaster manual has a description of the ignition as a CDI powered by 2 independent and internal coils on the flywheel.  The ignition system has 8 coils (one on each plug). 	


  I believe this is similar to that used

  by Rotax on the 9XX series engines.

  

  That's a REALLY busy drawing . . . 



  Is there a downloadable installation

  manual for this engine that I could

  look at?



 

   Bob . . .

dj_theis

Joined: 28 Aug 2017
Posts: 56
Location: Minnesota

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:44 am Post subject: Re: Revmaster R2300 Ignition

Thanks Bob,



>Is there a downloadable installation

>manual for this engine that I could

l>look at?



Yes, attached is a scan of the manual from Revmaster associated with the electrical for the R2300.  My apologies for the "busy" drawing I previously posted.



As one esteemed member also noted to me in a PM, the drawing I posted generated a lot of questions.  I will post a revised (hopefuly clearer) drawing tonight in an effort to make it a little clearer the circuit I am proposing.



Thanks !

Revmatser R-2300 Manual C - CDI Electrical.pdf

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Dan Theis
Scratch building Sonex #1362
Still working on the Revmaster Alternator improvement

dj_theis

Joined: 28 Aug 2017
Posts: 56
Location: Minnesota

Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: Revmaster R2300 Ignition

Bob and all,



I found at least one error that was surely misleading you into what I was up to.  My apologies.  Attached is a version showing only the conventional aviation ignition switch and the (parallel) toggle switches for ignition ON/OFF.



Hopefully this is a little easier to follow.



So, there are two more switches that were previously shown (S10 and S11)  that are not shown in this version.  Those can be discussed once the initial circuit is digested (and without errors).



Else, for all normal run-up testing, the conventional ignition switch could be used for starting and to test Left and Right (Top and Bottom) ignitions. That was my primary goal with all this, "to provide a more conventional start and run-up routine with the Revmaster ignition."



For end of flight power down, after the engine is quieted with the fuel starvation and conventional ignition switch, the toggle switches would be used to insure the ignition is not "hot" when the main contactor is off.  Yes, my design relies on the "master on" to pull the P leads low.



Maybe this is the primary weakness of the design, in that the pilot would disable the ignition with a separate action (the S2 and S3 toggles) after the conventional key, ignition switch is off.  



As a side note, I don't think the internal ignition power coils (shown on the also attached voltage regulator circuit) will supply enough voltage to allow hand prop starting (making the toggles somewhat unnecessary).  The normal start circuit feeds battery voltage to the CDI ignition through the starter coil, to boost the staring voltage.



Gosh, I hope I'm not making this explanation more confusing than necessary.



Thanks to any and all who take the time to wade through my logic and diagrams



Best regards,

Revmaster voltage regulators.pdf

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Revmaster 2300 r11b -ingnition ckt.pdf

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Dan Theis
Scratch building Sonex #1362
Still working on the Revmaster Alternator improvement

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1927
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: Revmaster R2300 Ignition

Why not eliminate the toggle switches and relays and only use the mag switch?

 It seems that more components will increase the chances of ignition failure.

_________________
Joe Gores

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:16 pm Post subject: Revmaster R2300 Ignition

At 06:49 PM 4/8/2020, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>



 Why not eliminate the toggle switches and relays and only use the mag switch?

  It seems that more components will increase the chances of ignition failure.

 	


  From the installation literature I surmise that

  this engine has a rather comprehensive ign-test

  protocol orchestrated with various combinations

  of the four modules being OFF/ON. It lets you

  detect a failure of any single ignition module

  out of eight . . . rather clever . . . but

  it sho doesn't play nice with your grandpa's 

  keyswitch!



  I've been stirring the murky options but

  haven't had a eureka moment . . . but

  to be sure, adding relays is waayyy down

  on the list of options. This makes the engine

  electrically dependent if only to gracefully

  orchestrate OFF-PREFLIGHT-RUN conditions.



  Methinks a DC-Free control system is much to

  be desired.



 



 

 

   Bob . . .

dj_theis

Joined: 28 Aug 2017
Posts: 56
Location: Minnesota

Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: Revmaster R2300 Ignition

Thanks for the response Joe,



>Why not eliminate the toggle switches and relays and only use the mag >switch?

>It seems that more components will increase the chances of ignition failure



Agreed, but the Revmaster requires 4 individual "pull to ground" switches.  All aviation switches available only have two "P" lead circuits, right?



Two 700- 2-3 switches achieve the Revmaster requirement/suggestion for four - single pole switches.  That is how I originally drew the ckt.   



Two more 700-2-7 provided the circuits to execute their diagnostic routine described in the write up (shown in the last version I posted).



The simple thing is to use the 4 switches for the ignition, have a key switch if I felt the need (for false security) to power the start circuit only (no mag check through the key) and just a simple push button start.  Like the C120 I flew for my tail wheel endorsement.  



It always made me grumble when I would go to start the 120 and rotate the key switch to engage the starter, with the only noise I would hear was my tail wheel instructor chuckling under his breath because I forgot it had a push button start (again).



Yes, adding the relays and implementing a scheme to have it "behave" like a traditional magneto ignition may be a little too cute.  Assuming it would operate reliably.



Thanks once again for your time and consideration.

_________________
Dan Theis
Scratch building Sonex #1362
Still working on the Revmaster Alternator improvement

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:01 pm Post subject: Revmaster R2300 Ignition

I've been pondering this topic for a few days. The

 ignition system on this engine is really rather clever . . .

 manipulation of 4 switches in pattern gives you

 a 100% check on condition of ignition components!



 I think I'd try to avoid adding to the complexity

 of this already 'optimized' switching philosophy.

 If it were my airplane, I'd craft a shield and

 gang bar (magenta and blue) to give me single-stroke

 shutdown of all switches. Mounting the switches

 on 0.8" centers makes for a compact cluster that

 goes to choreographing the toggle-switch-tap-

 dance during preflight run up.

 

   Bob . . .

RevMaster_Ignition_Quad-Switch_Array.jpg

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dj_theis

Joined: 28 Aug 2017
Posts: 56
Location: Minnesota

Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Revmaster R2300 Ignition

[quote]>I think I'd try to avoid adding to the complexity

>of this already 'optimized' switching philosophy.

>If it were my airplane, I'd craft a shield and

>gang bar (magenta and blue) to give me single-stroke

>shutdown of all switches. Mounting the switches

>on 0.8" centers makes for a compact cluster that

>goes to choreographing the toggle-switch-tap-

>dance during preflight run up[/quote]



It's hard to argue common sense.  Thanks for all the feedback and above all, thanks for serious consideration of my excursion into unnecessary complexity.  I think it's safe to say I've been "talked back from the ledge" and will be installing 4 switches.



Best regards,



Dan.

_________________
Dan Theis
Scratch building Sonex #1362
Still working on the Revmaster Alternator improvement

BRS

Joined: 27 Jan 2019
Posts: 1

Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Revmaster R2300 Ignition

I just found this old thread.  Got to researching the topic as I've a R-2300 that is currently being built.  After looking this all over, here is what I'm thinking.  Do you see any issues with doing it this way?



Wire the top plugs to a single double throw switch and the bottom plugs to another double throw switch.  Thus flipping one switch will will isolate either the top or bottom plugs.  Then it's just a matter of glancing at the multi-prob EGT to see if a coil is failing or not.



A key switch could still be used for starting and possibly other functons.

_________________
-brs
Sonex-Legacy
R-2300

dj_theis

Joined: 28 Aug 2017
Posts: 56
Location: Minnesota

Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:15 am Post subject: Re: Revmaster R2300 Ignition

 	  Quote: 	
		   I just found this old thread. Got to researching the topic as I've a R-2300 that is currently being built. After looking this all over, here is what I'm thinking. Do you see any issues with doing it this way?



Wire the top plugs to a single double throw switch and the bottom plugs to another double throw switch. Thus flipping one switch will will isolate either the top or bottom plugs. Then it's just a matter of glancing at the multi-prob EGT to see if a coil is failing or not. 	


BRS,

I don't see any issues with your proposal and in fact, is similar to how I've decided to run my system.  I use two toggle switches as you suggest (S700-2-5), on the main panel area for normal startup and runup.  These are shown as S2 and S3 on the attached drawing.



I added two additional switches (S700-2-7) for further testing each of the 4 separate ignition circuits.  These switches are separated on my panel and are not expected to be used in normal operation. The test switches are S10 and S11 on the drawing.



 My thought was to have the commonly used switches emulate more conventional startup, runup, and shutdown operation.  My added S10 and S11 switches are superfluous and I might not have included them if I had thought of using the EGT feedback.  My panel is pretty much completed at this point.



I like Bob's suggestion of a "gang control mechanism" as well, (earlier in this thread) but my normal switching area was limited. One of the well known limitations of the Sonex Legacy design, "not much panel space."



Dan Theis

Z16M Revmaster 2300 r9b- pg 3.pdf

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Dan Theis
Scratch building Sonex #1362
Still working on the Revmaster Alternator improvement

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