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dpark748(at)me.com
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 Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 10:44 am Post subject: Starter Diode |
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I fitted a starter Diode and engine would not start. Orientation was as described with band end cathode on starter terminal and other end to earth?
Have I got wrong diode.
Any advice appreciated
Dave Park G-LDVO
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budyerly@msn.com
Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 291
Location: Florida USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:01 pm Post subject: Starter Diode |
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Dave,
I didn't see anyone commented on your diode.
Pretty much any diode will do. If you get it backwards, the saving grace is the start solenoid is looking for 12 volts. Of course, the solenoid must be grounded.
Most mistakes are the ground is left off the solenoid when putting on the diode. Another problem is guys don�t insulate the anode side of the diode and it shorts.
The Rotax manual doesn't comment on the diode. But it is an accepted practice to extend the life of the contacts in the starter solenoid. The Europa Electrical Chapter 25 advises to use an IN5404 but any will do.
IN5404 <![endif]--><![if !vml]>[img]cid:image001.png(at)01D75B0E.9AC39E20[/img]<![endif]><![endif]--> silicone diode is shown above. Anode or plus side is on the starter switch tab and the cathode or negative goes to the ground bolt holding on the starter solenoid. I use at least a #18 or 16 wire from the solenoid fastening bolt to the main firewall ground.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
--
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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budyerly@msn.com
Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 291
Location: Florida USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:14 pm Post subject: Starter Diode |
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Dave,
OOPS. Look at the diagram, I misspoke.� The cathode side on a solenoid spade contact and the anode or positive goes to the ground.
It�s getting late and the mind is a terrible thing.
Follow the pictures in the Bob Knuckles book or the Europa Electrical Diagram.
Goodnight,
Bud Yerly
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Bud Yerly
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2021 8:01 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Starter Diode
Dave,
I didn't see anyone commented on your diode.
Pretty much any diode will do. If you get it backwards, the saving grace is the start solenoid is looking for 12 volts. Of course, the solenoid must be grounded.
Most mistakes are the ground is left off the solenoid when putting on the diode. Another problem is guys don�t insulate the anode side of the diode and it shorts.
The Rotax manual doesn't comment on the diode. But it is an accepted practice to extend the life of the contacts in the starter solenoid. The Europa Electrical Chapter 25 advises to use an IN5404 but any will do.
IN5404 <![endif]--><![if !vml]>[img]cid:image002.png(at)01D75B10.86931730[/img]<![endif]><![endif]--> silicone diode is shown above. Anode or plus side is on the starter switch tab and the cathode or negative goes to the ground bolt holding on the starter solenoid. I use at least a #18 or 16 wire from the solenoid fastening bolt to the main firewall ground.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
--
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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dpark748(at)me.com
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:01 am Post subject: Starter Diode |
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Bud,Still confused as Europa Manual wiring diagram shows Anode to Earth? Not switch.
Regards
Dave Park
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 01:06, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> Clean Clean false false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE <![endif]--> <![endif]-->/* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Dave,
I didn't see anyone commented on your diode.
Pretty much any diode will do. If you get it backwards, the saving grace is the start solenoid is looking for 12 volts. Of course, the solenoid must be grounded.
Most mistakes are the ground is left off the solenoid when putting on the diode. Another problem is guys don’t insulate the anode side of the diode and it shorts.
The Rotax manual doesn't comment on the diode. But it is an accepted practice to extend the life of the contacts in the starter solenoid. The Europa Electrical Chapter 25 advises to use an IN5404 but any will do.
IN5404 <![endif]-->[img]cid:image001.png(at)01D75B0E.9AC39E20[/img]<![endif]--> silicone diode is shown above. Anode or plus side is on the starter switch tab and the cathode or negative goes to the ground bolt holding on the starter solenoid. I use at least a #18 or 16 wire from the solenoid fastening bolt to the main firewall ground.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
--
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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Burrilla
Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:31 am Post subject: Starter Diode |
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Are you sure the diode is not faulty?
You can check it with an meter set to read resistance. Should be high resistance one way and low the other.
Have you tried connecting it the other way round?
Alan
Sent from my iPad
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 09:02, david park <dpark748(at)me.com> wrote:
Bud,Still confused as Europa Manual wiring diagram shows Anode to Earth? Not switch.
Regards
Dave Park
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 01:06, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> Clean Clean false false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE <![endif]--> <![endif]-->/* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Dave,
I didn't see anyone commented on your diode.
Pretty much any diode will do. If you get it backwards, the saving grace is the start solenoid is looking for 12 volts. Of course, the solenoid must be grounded.
Most mistakes are the ground is left off the solenoid when putting on the diode. Another problem is guys don’t insulate the anode side of the diode and it shorts.
The Rotax manual doesn't comment on the diode. But it is an accepted practice to extend the life of the contacts in the starter solenoid. The Europa Electrical Chapter 25 advises to use an IN5404 but any will do.
IN5404 <![endif]--><image001.png>
<![endif]--> silicone diode is shown above. Anode or plus side is on the starter switch tab and the cathode or negative goes to the ground bolt holding on the starter solenoid. I use at least a #18 or 16 wire from the solenoid fastening bolt to the main firewall ground.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
--
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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dpark748(at)me.com
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:09 am Post subject: Starter Diode |
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Allan have you put ANODE to switch contact?
Dave Park
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 09:35, Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk> wrote:
Are you sure the diode is not faulty?
You can check it with an meter set to read resistance. Should be high resistance one way and low the other.
Have you tried connecting it the other way round?
Alan
Sent from my iPad
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 09:02, david park <dpark748(at)me.com> wrote:
Bud,Still confused as Europa Manual wiring diagram shows Anode to Earth? Not switch.
Regards
Dave Park
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 01:06, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> Clean Clean false false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE <![endif]--> <![endif]-->/* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Dave,
I didn't see anyone commented on your diode.
Pretty much any diode will do. If you get it backwards, the saving grace is the start solenoid is looking for 12 volts. Of course, the solenoid must be grounded.
Most mistakes are the ground is left off the solenoid when putting on the diode. Another problem is guys don’t insulate the anode side of the diode and it shorts.
The Rotax manual doesn't comment on the diode. But it is an accepted practice to extend the life of the contacts in the starter solenoid. The Europa Electrical Chapter 25 advises to use an IN5404 but any will do.
IN5404 <![endif]--><image001.png>
<![endif]--> silicone diode is shown above. Anode or plus side is on the starter switch tab and the cathode or negative goes to the ground bolt holding on the starter solenoid. I use at least a #18 or 16 wire from the solenoid fastening bolt to the main firewall ground.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
--
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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Burrilla
Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:37 am Post subject: Starter Diode |
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I’m asking if you did it by accident, I know what happens😀
Alan
Sent from my iPad
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 10:11, david park <dpark748(at)me.com> wrote:
Allan have you put ANODE to switch contact?
Dave Park
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 09:35, Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk> wrote:
Are you sure the diode is not faulty?
You can check it with an meter set to read resistance. Should be high resistance one way and low the other.
Have you tried connecting it the other way round?
Alan
Sent from my iPad
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 09:02, david park <dpark748(at)me.com> wrote:
Bud,Still confused as Europa Manual wiring diagram shows Anode to Earth? Not switch.
Regards
Dave Park
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 01:06, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> Clean Clean false false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE <![endif]--> <![endif]-->/* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Dave,
I didn't see anyone commented on your diode.
Pretty much any diode will do. If you get it backwards, the saving grace is the start solenoid is looking for 12 volts. Of course, the solenoid must be grounded.
Most mistakes are the ground is left off the solenoid when putting on the diode. Another problem is guys don’t insulate the anode side of the diode and it shorts.
The Rotax manual doesn't comment on the diode. But it is an accepted practice to extend the life of the contacts in the starter solenoid. The Europa Electrical Chapter 25 advises to use an IN5404 but any will do.
IN5404 <![endif]--><image001.png>
<![endif]--> silicone diode is shown above. Anode or plus side is on the starter switch tab and the cathode or negative goes to the ground bolt holding on the starter solenoid. I use at least a #18 or 16 wire from the solenoid fastening bolt to the main firewall ground.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
--
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:42 am Post subject: Starter Diode |
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Hello Dave,
I haven’t got your previous posts in front of me but I assume you want to put the diode across the starter solenoid.
If my assumption is correct, you should connect the anode to the starter motor side of the starter solenoid and the cathode to the positive (starter switch) side of the solenoid.
If you have had it connected the other way around and tried starting the engine, the diode would have been forward biased trying to carry the full current of the starter motor and more than likely will be ruined.
Either check the diode with a multi meter ( on ohms scale) to ensure it conducts in one direction but not the other or use a new diode.
When connected correctly, on pressing the starter button (or key switch), the diode is reverse biased and has no effect..... all the current passes through the solenoid. On releasing the starter button (or key switch), the collapsing magnetic field in the starter solenoid tries to induce a high voltage spike but this is swamped by the diode because the diode short circuits the current induced by the collapsing magnetic field in the coil.
Hope this hasn’t made it more confusing for you. I could and probably should have just said ..... connect it like the manual says.
Best regards
Kingsley in Oz.
Sent from my iPhone
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 7:17 pm, david park <dpark748(at)me.com> wrote:
Allan have you put ANODE to switch contact?
Dave Park
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 09:35, Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk> wrote:
Are you sure the diode is not faulty?
You can check it with an meter set to read resistance. Should be high resistance one way and low the other.
Have you tried connecting it the other way round?
Alan
Sent from my iPad
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 09:02, david park <dpark748(at)me.com> wrote:
Bud,Still confused as Europa Manual wiring diagram shows Anode to Earth? Not switch.
Regards
Dave Park
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 01:06, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> Clean Clean false false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE <![endif]--> <![endif]-->/* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Dave,
I didn't see anyone commented on your diode.
Pretty much any diode will do. If you get it backwards, the saving grace is the start solenoid is looking for 12 volts. Of course, the solenoid must be grounded.
Most mistakes are the ground is left off the solenoid when putting on the diode. Another problem is guys don’t insulate the anode side of the diode and it shorts.
The Rotax manual doesn't comment on the diode. But it is an accepted practice to extend the life of the contacts in the starter solenoid. The Europa Electrical Chapter 25 advises to use an IN5404 but any will do.
IN5404 <![endif]--><image001.png>
<![endif]--> silicone diode is shown above. Anode or plus side is on the starter switch tab and the cathode or negative goes to the ground bolt holding on the starter solenoid. I use at least a #18 or 16 wire from the solenoid fastening bolt to the main firewall ground.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
--
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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Burrilla
Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:56 am Post subject: Starter Diode |
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[img]cid:070B7AAB-492A-4B44-8713-20F43830CB6D-L0-001[/img]
The diode is connected across the starter solenoid coil not the contacts for the starter motor as per the extract from the build manual above. There is no diode across the starter motor shown in the build manual diagram, at least not my version.
With 12v positive on the starter contacter coil the diode, with the cathode or marked end of the diode connected to positive terminal of the starter coil, is reverse biased and so will not conduct. When the starter button release the falling emf, magnetic field, produces an opposite voltage in the coil and can spark across the starter switch contacts eventually damaging the contacts, the diode shorts out this so the spark does not happen.
If the diode is shorted out, or the wrong way round, then solenoid will not work, assuming the solenoid will operate without diode connected as a test to ensure it’s the wiring of the diode that’s the problem of course.
Isn’t explaining electrical problems by email fun……….🤩
Alan
Sent from my iPad
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 10:44, Kingsley Hurst <kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au> wrote:
Hello Dave,
I haven’t got your previous posts in front of me but I assume you want to put the diode across the starter solenoid.
If my assumption is correct, you should connect the anode to the starter motor side of the starter solenoid and the cathode to the positive (starter switch) side of the solenoid.
If you have had it connected the other way around and tried starting the engine, the diode would have been forward biased trying to carry the full current of the starter motor and more than likely will be ruined.
Either check the diode with a multi meter ( on ohms scale) to ensure it conducts in one direction but not the other or use a new diode.
When connected correctly, on pressing the starter button (or key switch), the diode is reverse biased and has no effect..... all the current passes through the solenoid. On releasing the starter button (or key switch), the collapsing magnetic field in the starter solenoid tries to induce a high voltage spike but this is swamped by the diode because the diode short circuits the current induced by the collapsing magnetic field in the coil.
Hope this hasn’t made it more confusing for you. I could and probably should have just said ..... connect it like the manual says.
Best regards
Kingsley in Oz.
Sent from my iPhone
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 7:17 pm, david park <dpark748(at)me.com> wrote:
Allan have you put ANODE to switch contact?
Dave Park
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 09:35, Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk> wrote:
Are you sure the diode is not faulty?
You can check it with an meter set to read resistance. Should be high resistance one way and low the other.
Have you tried connecting it the other way round?
Alan
Sent from my iPad
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 09:02, david park <dpark748(at)me.com> wrote:
Bud,Still confused as Europa Manual wiring diagram shows Anode to Earth? Not switch.
Regards
Dave Park
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 01:06, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> Clean Clean false false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE <![endif]--> <![endif]-->/* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Dave,
I didn't see anyone commented on your diode.
Pretty much any diode will do. If you get it backwards, the saving grace is the start solenoid is looking for 12 volts. Of course, the solenoid must be grounded.
Most mistakes are the ground is left off the solenoid when putting on the diode. Another problem is guys don’t insulate the anode side of the diode and it shorts.
The Rotax manual doesn't comment on the diode. But it is an accepted practice to extend the life of the contacts in the starter solenoid. The Europa Electrical Chapter 25 advises to use an IN5404 but any will do.
IN5404 <![endif]--><image001.png>
<![endif]--> silicone diode is shown above. Anode or plus side is on the starter switch tab and the cathode or negative goes to the ground bolt holding on the starter solenoid. I use at least a #18 or 16 wire from the solenoid fastening bolt to the main firewall ground.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
--
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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dpark748(at)me.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:30 am Post subject: Starter Diode |
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Thanks everyone, happy now😄😄😄
Dave Park
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 11:00, Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk> wrote:
[img]cid:070B7AAB-492A-4B44-8713-20F43830CB6D-L0-001[/img]
The diode is connected across the starter solenoid coil not the contacts for the starter motor as per the extract from the build manual above. There is no diode across the starter motor shown in the build manual diagram, at least not my version.
With 12v positive on the starter contacter coil the diode, with the cathode or marked end of the diode connected to positive terminal of the starter coil, is reverse biased and so will not conduct. When the starter button release the falling emf, magnetic field, produces an opposite voltage in the coil and can spark across the starter switch contacts eventually damaging the contacts, the diode shorts out this so the spark does not happen.
If the diode is shorted out, or the wrong way round, then solenoid will not work, assuming the solenoid will operate without diode connected as a test to ensure it’s the wiring of the diode that’s the problem of course.
Isn’t explaining electrical problems by email fun……….🤩
Alan
Sent from my iPad
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 10:44, Kingsley Hurst <kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au> wrote:
Hello Dave,
I haven’t got your previous posts in front of me but I assume you want to put the diode across the starter solenoid.
If my assumption is correct, you should connect the anode to the starter motor side of the starter solenoid and the cathode to the positive (starter switch) side of the solenoid.
If you have had it connected the other way around and tried starting the engine, the diode would have been forward biased trying to carry the full current of the starter motor and more than likely will be ruined.�
Either check the diode with a multi meter ( on ohms scale) to ensure it conducts in one direction but not the other or use a new diode.
When connected correctly, on pressing the starter button (or key switch), the diode is reverse biased and has no effect..... all the current passes through the solenoid. On releasing the starter button (or key switch), the collapsing magnetic field in the starter solenoid tries to induce a high voltage spike but this is swamped by the diode because the diode short circuits the current induced by the collapsing magnetic field in the coil.
Hope this hasn’t made it more confusing for you. I could and probably should have just said ..... connect it like the manual says.
Best regards
Kingsley in Oz.
Sent from my iPhone
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 7:17 pm, david park <dpark748(at)me.com> wrote:
Allan have you put ANODE to switch contact?
Dave Park
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 09:35, Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk> wrote:
Are you sure the diode is not faulty?
You can check it with an meter set to read resistance. Should be high resistance one way and low the other.
Have you tried connecting it the other way round?
Alan
Sent from my iPad
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 09:02, david park <dpark748(at)me.com> wrote:
Bud,Still confused as Europa Manual wiring diagram shows Anode to Earth? Not switch.
Regards
Dave Park
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 01:06, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> Clean Clean false false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE <![endif]--> <![endif]-->/* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Dave,
I didn't see anyone commented on your diode.
Pretty much any diode will do. If you get it backwards, the saving grace is the start solenoid is looking for 12 volts. Of course, the solenoid must be grounded.
Most mistakes are the ground is left off the solenoid when putting on the diode. Another problem is guys don’t insulate the anode side of the diode and it shorts.
The Rotax manual doesn't comment on the diode. But it is an accepted practice to extend the life of the contacts in the starter solenoid. The Europa Electrical Chapter 25 advises to use an IN5404 but any will do.
IN5404 <![endif]--><image001.png>
<![endif]--> silicone diode is shown above. Anode or plus side is on the starter switch tab and the cathode or negative goes to the ground bolt holding on the starter solenoid. I use at least a #18 or 16 wire from the solenoid fastening bolt to the main firewall ground.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
--
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kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:03 am Post subject: Starter Diode |
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Hello Alan,
I wasn’t intending to infer the diode should be across the starter motor as I clearly said starter solenoid in my opening paragraph. �
Without digging a deeper hole for myself, I offer no excuses for the errors in my posting other than to say my brain was obviously not engaged properly after 8 hrs of driving today.
Please accept my apology (and you too Dave) for my misdemeanour.
Regards
Kingsley.
Sent from my iPhone
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 8:19 pm, Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk> wrote:
<image0.jpeg>
The diode is connected across the starter solenoid coil not the contacts for the starter motor as per the extract from the build manual above. There is no diode across the starter motor shown in the build manual diagram, at least not my version.
With 12v positive on the starter contacter coil the diode, with the cathode or marked end of the diode connected to positive terminal of the starter coil, is reverse biased and so will not conduct. When the starter button release the falling emf, magnetic field, produces an opposite voltage in the coil and can spark across the starter switch contacts eventually damaging the contacts, the diode shorts out this so the spark does not happen.
If the diode is shorted out, or the wrong way round, then solenoid will not work, assuming the solenoid will operate without diode connected as a test to ensure it’s the wiring of the diode that’s the problem of course.
Isn’t explaining electrical problems by email fun……….🤩
Alan
Sent from my iPad
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 10:44, Kingsley Hurst <kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au> wrote:
Hello Dave,
I haven’t got your previous posts in front of me but I assume you want to put the diode across the starter solenoid.
If my assumption is correct, you should connect the anode to the starter motor side of the starter solenoid and the cathode to the positive (starter switch) side of the solenoid.
If you have had it connected the other way around and tried starting the engine, the diode would have been forward biased trying to carry the full current of the starter motor and more than likely will be ruined.
Either check the diode with a multi meter ( on ohms scale) to ensure it conducts in one direction but not the other or use a new diode.
When connected correctly, on pressing the starter button (or key switch), the diode is reverse biased and has no effect..... all the current passes through the solenoid. �On releasing the starter button (or key switch), the collapsing magnetic field in the starter solenoid tries to induce a high voltage spike but this is swamped by the diode because the diode short circuits the current induced by the collapsing magnetic field in the coil.
Hope this hasn’t made it more confusing for you. I could and probably should have just said ..... connect it like the manual says.
Best regards
Kingsley in Oz.
Sent from my iPhone
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 7:17 pm, david park <dpark748(at)me.com> wrote:
Allan have you put ANODE to switch contact?
Dave Park
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 09:35, Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk> wrote:
Are you sure the diode is not faulty?
You can check it with an meter set to read resistance. Should be high resistance one way and low the other.
Have you tried connecting it the other way round?
Alan
Sent from my iPad
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 09:02, david park <dpark748(at)me.com> wrote:
Bud,Still confused as Europa Manual wiring diagram shows Anode to Earth? Not switch.
Regards
Dave Park
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 01:06, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> Clean Clean false false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE <![endif]--> <![endif]-->/* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";} <![endif]--> <![endif]--> <![endif]-->
Dave,
I didn't see anyone commented on your diode.
Pretty much any diode will do. If you get it backwards, the saving grace is the start solenoid is looking for 12 volts. Of course, the solenoid must be grounded.
Most mistakes are the ground is left off the solenoid when putting on the diode. Another problem is guys don’t insulate the anode side of the diode and it shorts.
The Rotax manual doesn't comment on the diode. But it is an accepted practice to extend the life of the contacts in the starter solenoid. The Europa Electrical Chapter 25 advises to use an IN5404 but any will do.
IN5404 <![endif]--><image001.png>
<![endif]--> silicone diode is shown above. Anode or plus side is on the starter switch tab and the cathode or negative goes to the ground bolt holding on the starter solenoid. I use at least a #18 or 16 wire from the solenoid fastening bolt to the main firewall ground.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
--
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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Burrilla
Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:25 am Post subject: Starter Diode |
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Kingsley, no problem here and I was just ensuring with the diagram that everyone contributing had access to the same info.
I think Dave has indicated he has the answer - he might even share what was causing the problem. 😀
Alan[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 12:02, Kingsley Hurst <kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au (kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au)> wrote:
Hello Alan,
I wasn’t intending to infer the diode should be across the starter motor as I clearly said starter solenoid in my opening paragraph.
Without digging a deeper hole for myself, I offer no excuses for the errors in my posting other than to say my brain was obviously not engaged properly after 8 hrs of driving today.
Please accept my apology (and you too Dave) for my misdemeanour.
Regards
Kingsley. Sent from my iPhone
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 8:19 pm, Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk (alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk)> wrote:<image0.jpeg>
The diode is connected across the starter solenoid coil not the contacts for the starter motor as per the extract from the build manual above. There is no diode across the starter motor shown in the build manual diagram, at least not my version.
With 12v positive on the starter contacter coil the diode, with the cathode or marked end of the diode connected to positive terminal of the starter coil, is reverse biased and so will not conduct. When the starter button release the falling emf, magnetic field, produces an opposite voltage in the coil and can spark across the starter switch contacts eventually damaging the contacts, the diode shorts out this so the spark does not happen.
If the diode is shorted out, or the wrong way round, then solenoid will not work, assuming the solenoid will operate without diode connected as a test to ensure it’s the wiring of the diode that’s the problem of course.
Isn’t explaining electrical problems by email fun……….🤩
Alan
Sent from my iPad
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 10:44, Kingsley Hurst <kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au (kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au)> wrote:Hello Dave,
I haven’t got your previous posts in front of me but I assume you want to put the diode across the starter solenoid.
If my assumption is correct, you should connect the anode to the starter motor side of the starter solenoid and the cathode to the positive (starter switch) side of the solenoid.
If you have had it connected the other way around and tried starting the engine, the diode would have been forward biased trying to carry the full current of the starter motor and more than likely will be ruined.
Either check the diode with a multi meter ( on ohms scale) to ensure it conducts in one direction but not the other or use a new diode.
When connected correctly, on pressing the starter button (or key switch), the diode is reverse biased and has no effect..... all the current passes through the solenoid. On releasing the starter button (or key switch), the collapsing magnetic field in the starter solenoid tries to induce a high voltage spike but this is swamped by the diode because the diode short circuits the current induced by the collapsing magnetic field in the coil.
Hope this hasn’t made it more confusing for you. I could and probably should have just said ..... connect it like the manual says.
Best regards
Kingsley in Oz. Sent from my iPhone
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 7:17 pm, david park <dpark748(at)me.com (dpark748(at)me.com)> wrote:Allan have you put ANODE to switch contact?Dave Park
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 09:35, Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk (alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk)> wrote:Are you sure the diode is not faulty?
You can check it with an meter set to read resistance. Should be high resistance one way and low the other.
Have you tried connecting it the other way round?
AlanSent from my iPad
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 09:02, david park <dpark748(at)me.com (dpark748(at)me.com)> wrote:Bud,Still confused as Europa Manual wiring diagram shows Anode to Earth? Not switch.RegardsDave Park
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 01:06, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:Dave,
I didn't see anyone commented on your diode.
Pretty much any diode will do. If you get it backwards, the saving grace is the start solenoid is looking for 12 volts. Of course, the solenoid must be grounded.
Most mistakes are the ground is left off the solenoid when putting on the diode. Another problem is guys don’t insulate the anode side of the diode and it shorts.
The Rotax manual doesn't comment on the diode. But it is an accepted practice to extend the life of the contacts in the starter solenoid. The Europa Electrical Chapter 25 advises to use an IN5404 but any will do.
IN5404
<image001.png>
silicone diode is shown above. Anode or plus side is on the starter switch tab and the cathode or negative goes to the ground bolt holding on the starter solenoid. I use at least a #18 or 16 wire from the solenoid fastening bolt to the main firewall ground.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
--
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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dpark748(at)me.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:55 am Post subject: Starter Diode |
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Ptroblem started while rewiring a new panel and engine would not start due to a different problem. When looking to replace diode I got confused with differing advice and written instructions, �but was sure it should be as diagram. All good now ready for continental adventures again??
Regards
Dave Park
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 12:29, Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk> wrote:
Kingsley, no problem here and I was just ensuring with the diagram that everyone contributing had access to the same info.
I think Dave has indicated he has the answer - he might even share what was causing the problem. 😀
Alan[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 12:02, Kingsley Hurst <kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au (kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au)> wrote:
Hello Alan,
I wasn’t intending to infer the diode should be across the starter motor as I clearly said starter solenoid in my opening paragraph.
Without digging a deeper hole for myself, I offer no excuses for the errors in my posting other than to say my brain was obviously not engaged properly after 8 hrs of driving today.
Please accept my apology (and you too Dave) for my misdemeanour.�
Regards
Kingsley. Sent from my iPhone
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 8:19 pm, Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk (alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk)> wrote:<image0.jpeg>
The diode is connected across the starter solenoid coil not the contacts for the starter motor as per the extract from the build manual above. There is no diode across the starter motor shown in the build manual diagram, at least not my version.
With 12v positive on the starter contacter coil the diode, with the cathode or marked end of the diode connected to positive terminal of the starter coil, is reverse biased and so will not conduct. When the starter button release the falling emf, magnetic field, produces an opposite voltage in the coil and can spark across the starter switch contacts eventually damaging the contacts, the diode shorts out this so the spark does not happen.
If the diode is shorted out, or the wrong way round, then solenoid will not work, assuming the solenoid will operate without diode connected as a test to ensure it’s the wiring of the diode that’s the problem of course.
Isn’t explaining electrical problems by email fun……….🤩
Alan
Sent from my iPad
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 10:44, Kingsley Hurst <kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au (kingsnjan(at)westnet.com.au)> wrote:Hello Dave,
I haven’t got your previous posts in front of me but I assume you want to put the diode across the starter solenoid.
If my assumption is correct, you should connect the anode to the starter motor side of the starter solenoid and the cathode to the positive (starter switch) side of the solenoid.
If you have had it connected the other way around and tried starting the engine, the diode would have been forward biased trying to carry the full current of the starter motor and more than likely will be ruined.�
Either check the diode with a multi meter ( on ohms scale) to ensure it conducts in one direction but not the other or use a new diode.
When connected correctly, on pressing the starter button (or key switch), the diode is reverse biased and has no effect..... all the current passes through the solenoid. On releasing the starter button (or key switch), the collapsing magnetic field in the starter solenoid tries to induce a high voltage spike but this is swamped by the diode because the diode short circuits the current induced by the collapsing magnetic field in the coil.
Hope this hasn’t made it more confusing for you. I could and probably should have just said ..... connect it like the manual says.
Best regards
Kingsley in Oz. Sent from my iPhone
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 7:17 pm, david park <dpark748(at)me.com (dpark748(at)me.com)> wrote:Allan have you put ANODE to switch contact?Dave Park
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 09:35, Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk (alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk)> wrote:Are you sure the diode is not faulty?
You can check it with an meter set to read resistance. Should be high resistance one way and low the other.
Have you tried connecting it the other way round?
AlanSent from my iPad
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 09:02, david park <dpark748(at)me.com (dpark748(at)me.com)> wrote:Bud,Still confused as Europa Manual wiring diagram shows Anode to Earth? Not switch.RegardsDave Park
[quote]On 7 Jun 2021, at 01:06, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> wrote:Dave,
I didn't see anyone commented on your diode.
Pretty much any diode will do. If you get it backwards, the saving grace is the start solenoid is looking for 12 volts. Of course, the solenoid must be grounded.
Most mistakes are the ground is left off the solenoid when putting on the diode. Another problem is guys don’t insulate the anode side of the diode and it shorts.
The Rotax manual doesn't comment on the diode. But it is an accepted practice to extend the life of the contacts in the starter solenoid. The Europa Electrical Chapter 25�advises to use an IN5404 but any will do.
IN5404
<image001.png>
silicone diode is shown above. Anode or plus side is on the starter switch tab and the cathode or negative goes to the ground bolt holding on the starter solenoid.� I use at least a #18 or 16 wire from the solenoid fastening bolt to the main firewall ground.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
--
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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