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tonyvaccarella
Joined: 10 Sep 2014
Posts: 68
Location: Australia
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 Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:27 am Post subject: Is Mod 38 a good idea? |
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I only just became aware of this Mod that drills 2 x 1/8” holes at the rear of the fuel vent. From what I read, it’s intent is to prevent too much pressure being developed in the forward facing vent and therefore within the fuel tank.
Having some “pitot” pressure, I would have thought, would be desirable.
Im interested to know who has incorporated this Mod and would you recommend it? Europa lists it as desirable.
Thanks
Tony
Sydney Aust
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Tony Vaccarella
Mascot NSW 2020
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Burrilla
Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 185
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:57 am Post subject: Is Mod 38 a good idea? |
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It certainly done on mine. Not sure that the resulting pressure is of any significant benefit though if not done.
I thought that part of the reason was to prevent debris blocking the forward facing vents in flight and so providing an alternate venting source.
May be a myth but worth considering.
Alan
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On 24 Jun 2021, at 12:30, tonyvaccarella <tony(at)weimagine.com.au> wrote:
I only just became aware of this Mod that drills 2 x 1/8” holes at the rear of the fuel vent. From what I read, it’s intent is to prevent too much pressure being developed in the forward facing vent and therefore within the fuel tank.
Having some “pitot” pressure, I would have thought, would be desirable.
Im interested to know who has incorporated this Mod and would you recommend it? Europa lists it as desirable.
Thanks
Tony
Sydney Aust
--------
Tony Vaccarella
Mascot NSW 2020
Sydney Australia
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502573#502573
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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 4:01 am Post subject: Is Mod 38 a good idea? |
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Tony, I had the impression when I built mine that 5his was standard build requirement rather than a mod. It has worked well for 20 years. Could be that it also lets some or all of the water that comes in if you fly though rain (which of course in the UK we are prone to!) out again. In fact I have flown through quite a bit of rain but have never found any water in my Andair gascolator, which is situated at thr lowest point in the system.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2021-06-24 12:27, tonyvaccarella wrote: | Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "tonyvaccarella" <tony(at)weimagine.com.au (tony(at)weimagine.com.au)>I only just became aware of this Mod that drills 2 x 1/8€ holes at the rear of the fuel vent. From what I read, it€™s intent is to prevent too much pressure being developed in the forward facing vent and therefore within the fuel tank. Having some €œpitot€ pressure, I would have thought, would be desirable. Im interested to know who has incorporated this Mod and would you recommend it? Europa lists it as desirable. ThanksTonySydney Aust--------Tony VaccarellaMascot NSW 2020Sydney AustraliaRead this topic online here:http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502573#502573http://forums.matronics.cosp; - NEW arget="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">http://wiki.matronics.com< - List Contribution Web Sit a href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank" rel="n========
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Duncan McFadyean
Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 220
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:58 am Post subject: Is Mod 38 a good idea? |
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The Mod was introduced following the experiences of John Tye flying in rain, when water entry to the fuel tank via the forward-facing vents was suspected as the source of a rough running engine. It seems to work!
Duncan McF.
| Quote: | On 24 June 2021 at 12:27 tonyvaccarella <tony(at)weimagine.com.au> wrote:
I only just became aware of this Mod that drills 2 x 1/8â holes at the rear of the fuel vent. From what I read, itâs intent is to prevent too much pressure being developed in the forward facing vent and therefore within the fuel tank.
Having some âpitotâ pressure, I would have thought, would be desirable.
Im interested to know who has incorporated this Mod and would you recommend it? Europa lists it as desirable.
Thanks
Tony
Sydney Aust
--------
Tony Vaccarella
Mascot NSW 2020
Sydney Australia
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502573#502573
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SteveIvell(at)pestproof.c
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:17 am Post subject: Is Mod 38 a good idea? |
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I have just completed this MOD!! Easy enough to do.
Kind Regards
Steve Ivell
G-STES
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk
Sent: 24 June 2021 13:02
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Is Mod 38 a good idea?
Tony, I had the impression when I built mine that 5his was standard build requirement rather than a mod. It has worked well for 20 years. Could be that it also lets some or all of the water that comes in if you fly though rain (which of course in the UK we are prone to!) out again. In fact I have flown through quite a bit of rain but have never found any water in my Andair gascolator, which is situated at thr lowest point in the system.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2021-06-24 12:27, tonyvaccarella wrote: | Quote: |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "tonyvaccarella" <tony(at)weimagine.com.au (tony(at)weimagine.com.au)>
I only just became aware of this Mod that drills 2 x 1/8†holes at the rear of the fuel vent. From what I read, it’s intent is to prevent too much pressure being developed in the forward facing vent and therefore within the fuel tank.
Having some “pitot†pressure, I would have thought, would be desirable.
Im interested to know who has incorporated this Mod and would you recommend it? Europa lists it as desirable.
Thanks
Tony
Sydney Aust
--------
Tony Vaccarella
Mascot NSW 2020
Sydney Australia
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502573#502573
http://forums.matronics.cosp;- NEW arget="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">http://wiki.matronics.com<- List Contribution Web Sita href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank" rel="n========
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budyerly@msn.com
Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 288
Location: Florida USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:23 am Post subject: Is Mod 38 a good idea? |
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Tony,
Kitplanes did a nice review of fuel tank vent types.
On the Europa, drilling the base was for plugging concerns. With two forward facing vents (one vent and one sight gauge) on top of the Europa with holes at the base, the tank will vent in the event of plugging on the front as air can enter the holes at the base, and the sight gauge vent could also vent the tank if needed at the loss of a fuel gauge. Because the Europa designed vents are located in a low pressure area on top of the fuselage, in a steep turn to the right, with the tank nearly full of fuel, some fuel will be sucked out and down the fuselage staining the back. The same problem exists if the fuel tank is full to the neck and then expands. There is no concern with ram air pressure from the forward facing vent on our system. At Vne, a vent tube only adds a tiny fraction of pressure and bursting is not a concern. If you follow the build manual you will be OK, but if you leave the plane outside, consider the issue of rain entering the top side tubes unless covered. Jaxida aircraft covers made a hump for the vents. Very nice. In my experience, the Europa vent design accumulating water from rain, has not been an issue.
I place my vent on the bottom facing forward to get some pressure, but primarily to prevent fuel staining and allow a drain if accidentally overfilling. Then as the fuel warms, the expanding fuel has somewhere to go rather than staining my paint. It is imperative that the bottom vent be drilled at the base with two holes as mud or debris coming off the nose wheel could plug the tip. In my design, there is no other way to vent the tank as in the Europa design. Not a concern for me as I have a wheel panted trigear operating off of hard surface runways. For guys flying off of muddy runways my system may not be advantageous. A vent can be just a straight down pipe also if ice or debris is a concern. This would be true for the Europa also. At the slow speeds of our aircraft and a fuel draw of less than 12GPH (.2 gallons per minute) tank venting requires a very small diameter vent to prevent fuel starvation as the engine draws fuel from the tank. A vent of only 1/8 inch ID is sufficient in my calculations for fuel delivery.
When filling the tank, venting is a different story. If filling from a commercial fuel hose at full rate, expect to get wet with fuel. (If the one inch filling hose is flowing at 5 gallons a minute under pressure, clearly a vent of the same flow rate would be needed. Fill the Europa slowly from the commercial pumps. Aircraft fuel trucks can flow at 10 plus gallons per minute and many a line boy has been drenched.) Larger vents up to 3/8 ID have been tried, but flow into a necked tank inlet hose to the tank can still be an issue of fuel burping back. If fuel goes in rapidly, air must rapidly escape the tank. A fill vent that comes back into the filler neck as on my design will still burp back at you at a high rate of fill.
A fuel vent design can also be pointed down, horizontal or aft. Testing is the key. Some positions would create a vacuum and the fuel delivery system (aircraft pumps) must compensate. Icing can be a problem for some doing IFR ops. The Europa doesn't do ice well so avoid it obviously. In my observations, those aircraft using forward facing or angled forward pressure vents tend to have gravity feed issues from the wing tanks. So, design of the fuel vents takes as much planning sometimes as the fuel delivery to the engine. The older aircraft often had vented caps only on their gravity feed fuel system and the low pressure area over the wing was high enough that fuel was restricted from flowing to the engine on takeoff.
In any case, never take your fuel vent for granted. Our Europa fuel cap is sealed fairly tight, therefore the only way the engine can draw fuel out of the tank is if there is a way for air to replace the fuel used at a rate higher than the feed. On preflight, check the vent is clear. Don't assume that the fuel fumes will keep an insect from building a nest in your vent(s). If operating off of muddy runways, think about the affects on your fuel vent on the bottom. If it is damaged or clogged, fix it. If the engine sags on takeoff, reduce power and return to land. Checking the engine is a must, but don't fail to check your fuel vent. When refueling, fill the tank slowly if your tank venting system is not capable of the flow rate of your fuel filler nozzle or you will get a fuel bath.
Just my opinion,
Bud Yerly
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m.j.gregory(at)talk21.com
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:45 am Post subject: Is Mod 38 a good idea? |
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Further to the other good reasons of avoiding blockage and rain ingress already put forward, the mod 38 leaflet also says that the mod is: "To minimise pressure changes due to changes in engine power or airspeed it is desirable to avoid any pitot pressure in these vents." The reason this is undesirable is not included in the leaflet, but it is simply because the volume of air between the sight gauge vent inlet and the column of fuel in the tube is much smaller than the volume of air between the tank vent inlet and the fuel surface. Hence any change in pitot pressure applied to both the vents would take much longer to change the pressure in the tank than in the sight gauge, resulting in false sight gauge readings until equilibrium was reached.
Mike
Dr Mike Gregory
Europa Club Safety Officer
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rparigoris
Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 796
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:27 am Post subject: Re: Is Mod 38 a good idea? |
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Hi Group What's thoughts about venting fuel tanks to baggage area? Install a T to exterior vent with a one way valve. If exterior vent becomes clogged, at least air can get into tank somewhat?:
https://www.mcmaster.com/valves/check-valves-with-barbed-fittings-9/
Ron P.
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budyerly@msn.com
Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 288
Location: Florida USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:37 am Post subject: Is Mod 38 a good idea? |
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Overkill Ron. Fuel fumes in the cockpit on the good/bad scale is BAD. Preflighting is all that's needed. Drill holes in the back.
Bud
Get Outlook for Android
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of rparigoris <rparigor(at)hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2021 1:27:15 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com <europa-list(at)matronics.com>
Subject: Re: Is Mod 38 a good idea?
--> Europa-List message posted by: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com>
Hi Group What's thoughts about venting fuel tanks to baggage area? Install a T to exterior vent with a one way valve. If exterior vent becomes clogged, at least air can get into tank somewhat?:
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mcmaster.com%2Fvalves%2Fcheck-valves-with-barbed-fittings-9%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7C2294483533304d0751f708d93735d236%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637601526563009343%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=EQtvWkv0ntHwrxiRUUJqN4FF6SC2NaEBJjv6EUos73M%3D&reserved=0
Ron P.
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