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Question about cruise altitudes with a 912ULS

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n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:14 am Post subject: Question about cruise altitudes with a 912ULS

Dear Forum Members,



Quick question for those familiar with operating the Europa with the 912ULS engine:



What would you consider would be the highest altitude for normal cruising with this engine. Read "normal" were the engine is not running overly rich and causing other issues such as fouled plugs?



Yesterday I did a fairly long cross-country around Florida (about 3.5 hours total) and on the return flight I was getting beat up by turbulence at 5,500 feet (can the Europa be rough on turbulence or what??).



I understand the 912 is still happy at 5,500 but what about higher altitudes. I put up with the turbulence. Rather silly since I could have just tried to go up to 7,500 feet) but not knowing if the engine starts running too rich to be happy I just put up with it.



Best Regards,

Chris

budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 286
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:37 am Post subject: Question about cruise altitudes with a 912ULS

Chris,

The Bing carbs in my tests are pretty good up to about 3500 feet.  Above that they start running rich.

A normally aspirated engine should provide at full throttle 75% power.  However, the Bing carb runs even richer that high, so the power is lost (overly rich) and with the higher fuel flows flying higher does not give greater efficiency.  I normally have clients with a constant speed prop so full throttle (actually just a bit less seems to improve MP and leaning) at 5000 RPM can use a bit more leaning so leaning add on devices are available.  If cruising at 7500, try running it up to 5500 for a bit to clear the plugs before decent.   Once you pull back for decent, the engine will load up again, so I go back to 5500 to clear the plugs.



Creighton Smith (96EG) on his 80 horse and some of my Mid West Clients have added a leaning device called the HacMan by Green Sky Adventures (GSA TECH LLC 326 Melrose Landing BLVD, Hawthorne, FL 32640).  It works, as it robs the carb of float bowl pressure and leans the engine using manifold pressure (MP).  My Kitfox and Jabiru guys use it for flying in the mountains to get peak power for takeoff and cruise.  Of course, you must have an EGT gauge and since you are worried about plugs and running without fouling a fuel flow meter would be nice.  Most of the time, plumbing is done from the cross over tube to the HacMan as a vacuum source.  If you have a MP gauge, I really didn't see much of a difference in the MP readings, so we just tee it there.  



Creighton Smith made comments on it in an older thread.  It works but the hoses supplied are crap and the leaning knob is very sensitive and must be turned in 1/4 increments, then await the results, as it takes time for the pressures to normalize, then adjust again.  There are videos online by guys using this.  Also PUT THE HACMAN BACK TO FULL RICH IF YOU CHANGE THROTTLE SETTINGS as MP changes and the carb may lean out far too lean and kill the engine.  Normally, the Hacman is only used after level off but out west some need it for takeoff power.  Some of the videos are done at low altitude, it is better to do this once higher and at cruise.  With a fixed pitch your RPM should rise, the EGT rise, and the Cyl Temp may rise in the Rotax.  Readjust the throttle for cruise RPM then adjust mixture again.  This has been used successfully by many but do install proper instrumentation.  Also, this is not an authorized accessory by Rotax.



Best Regards,

Bud Yerly



--

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 792

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:38 am Post subject: Re: Question about cruise altitudes with a 912ULS

Hi Group

Curious, has anyone tried pulling full (and 1/2) choke at cruise? I believe that it will in fact lean the mixture, just not sure if by a noticeable amount.

On Bing Type 64 Constant Depression carb the choke is actually an enrichment circuit. At higher vacuum I believe no extra fuel enters manifold, just an air leak.

Thx. Ron P.

n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: Question about cruise altitudes with a 912ULS

Thanks for the replies guys,



Normally I do fly lower. 3500 or 4500. The turbulence was annoying so went higher. I will check a plug to see how it looks. The engine ran good. Can't remember the EGT at that altitude. 



Chris

budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 286
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:17 pm Post subject: Question about cruise altitudes with a 912ULS

I don't recommend it.  Especially on the 914. 

 

  Lockwood used to put it in their class as normally the engine missed terribly as the enrichening circuit leans excessively above 4000.

 

 

  Bud 

 

 

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  From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of rparigoris <rparigor(at)hotmail.com>

 Sent: Monday, February 14, 2022 2:38:03 PM

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: Re: Question about cruise altitudes with a 912ULS  

 

  --> Europa-List message posted by: "rparigoris" <rparigor(at)hotmail.com>

 

 Hi Group

 Curious, has anyone tried pulling full (and 1/2) choke at cruise? I believe that it will in fact lean the mixture, just not sure if by a noticeable amount.

 On Bing Type 64 Constant Depression carb the choke is actually an enrichment circuit. At higher vacuum I believe no extra fuel enters manifold, just an air leak.

 Thx. Ron P.

 

 

 

 

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rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 792

Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2022 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: Question about cruise altitudes with a 912ULS

Hi Chris



Here's a good read and video from Kevin on reading spark plugs:

https://www.cycleworld.com/story/blogs/ask-kevin/nostalgia-tempered-by-inconvenient-truths/?utm_source=internal&utm_medium=email&tp=i-1NGB-Et-UbT-1JcL6S-1c-14sh8-1c-1JcA0j-l631GdrB0h-1rSQ73

To really check what's going on you need a new set of plugs, run at power setting you want to check and shut down quickly.

Ron P.

n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404

Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2022 7:11 am Post subject: Re: Question about cruise altitudes with a 912ULS

Good video Ron. Thanks.

Chris

Olivier.hequet@neuf.fr

Joined: 21 Aug 2017
Posts: 40
Location: France

Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:57 pm Post subject: Re: Question about cruise altitudes with a 912ULS

Hello,



A friend makes a system for my europa permitting to adjust the Air Fuel ratio in high altitude. Tests in progress...Many MCR are already equipped and they reduce the consumption about 1.5 to 2.5 liter per hours with a AFR at 13.8.

pictures on this page...https://www.leboncoin.fr/sports_hobbies/2109815787.htm



Olivier

F-PAKV

n7188u

Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 6:35 am Post subject: Re: Question about cruise altitudes with a 912ULS

Interesting device Olivier. Thanks for sharing.



Looking forward to hearing more about how it works and of any field experience.



Chris

rparigoris

Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 792

Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2022 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: Question about cruise altitudes with a 912ULS

Hi Oliver



Not much details on mixture control. 

** Is there a way of immediately bypassing leaning?

** Does the O2 sensor go through a test when powered up and if not within specs gives you a warning?

** Do you have EGT/s?

** Can you control manually, get peak EGT and go richer?

Using an O2 sensor to control a mixture monitor does not require a fast response time of the O2 sensor. Even a few second response time is fine. When a O2 sensor is exposed to lead, it begins to slow down. After a while not only will it slow down but high and low parameters begin to get closer. I have a mixture monitor on my 914, I expect to get 75 or more hours out of sensor using 100LL. I welded a bung onto tail pipe just downstream of muffler to hold O2 sensor.

If you are using an O2 sensor for mixture control, you need a fast O2 sensor response time. 

Ron P.

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