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Flying with full down trim

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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:02 am Post subject: Flying with full down trim

So after reading that very strange European accident report which attributed cause to the full down trim and stick forces, i decided to give it a try.



Conclusion: balderdash.



My classic has a typical slight rear of center CG, trim indicator calibrated to read center when the trim is in line with the fuse-tailplane-moulding, and typically take off with 2.5 lines down trim on the indicator.



I flew 1.2hrs, including 2 circuits, from startup to shutdown at full down trim without issue.  Sure the feel/pressure is off, but nothing of major concern. Surely not anything “startling”.



Sure, every plane flys differently, but i still cannot understand that report’s conclusions. Fuel starvation on a steep climb-out appears to me to be the more reasonable conclusion.



FWIW YMMV etc.



Cheers,

PeteZ

C-GNPZ

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stranfaer(at)btinternet.c
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:38 am Post subject: Flying with full down trim

Did you also try the other way eg full up?



Sent from David’s iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 30 Mar 2022, at 18:02, Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 So after reading that very strange European accident report which attributed cause to the full down trim and stick forces, i decided to give it a try.

 

 Conclusion: balderdash.

 

 My classic has a typical slight rear of center CG, trim indicator calibrated to read center when the trim is in line with the fuse-tailplane-moulding, and typically take off with 2.5 lines down trim on the indicator.

 

 I flew 1.2hrs, including 2 circuits, from startup to shutdown at full down trim without issue.  Sure the feel/pressure is off, but nothing of major concern. Surely not anything “startling”.

 

 Sure, every plane flys differently, but i still cannot understand that report’s conclusions. Fuel starvation on a steep climb-out appears to me to be the more reasonable conclusion.

 

 FWIW YMMV etc.

 

 Cheers,

 PeteZ

 C-GNPZ

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christoph.both(at)acadiau
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:26 am Post subject: Flying with full down trim

Pete,

Did you try trim all the way up?

Christoph



On 2022-03-30, 2:02 PM, "owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of Pete" <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com on behalf of peterz(at)zutrasoft.com> wrote:



    CAUTION: This email comes from outside Acadia. Verify the sender and use caution with any requests, links or attachments.



    



    So after reading that very strange European accident report which attributed cause to the full down trim and stick forces, i decided to give it a try.



    Conclusion: balderdash.



    My classic has a typical slight rear of center CG, trim indicator calibrated to read center when the trim is in line with the fuse-tailplane-moulding, and typically take off with 2.5 lines down trim on the indicator.



    I flew 1.2hrs, including 2 circuits, from startup to shutdown at full down trim without issue.  Sure the feel/pressure is off, but nothing of major concern. Surely not anything “startling”.



    Sure, every plane flys differently, but i still cannot understand that report’s conclusions. Fuel starvation on a steep climb-out appears to me to be the more reasonable conclusion.



    FWIW YMMV etc.



    Cheers,

    PeteZ

    C-GNPZ

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dmac7

Joined: 05 Apr 2019
Posts: 48
Location: Canada

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2022 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Flying with full down trim

Pete thanks for testing this config, good to know. I think of the Swiss cheese model of accident factor's, the report said take-off was attempted with nearly empty fuel tank ( 6.5 liters or less in main ), on a day with winds 15kt gusting 23kt not a good day for a steep climb out, and pilots habit of steep climbs, the trim situation may or may not have been different than previous flights.  They didn't address the likelihood  of fuel starvation at the steep pitch angle with low fuel in the tank.  We can only try to learn from this, mistakes... we all make em.  Keeping a little distance from the edge of the performance envelope seems a good idea.

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Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 391

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:27 am Post subject: Re: Flying with full down trim

So just to clarify this Pete; was it the trim indicator on the instrument panel that you set at the full down position? My aircraft flies fine with full down trim selected though its not very comfortable on departure or approach and requires a higher pilot work load. With 2 bars down trim selected my observations show the aircraft wanting to pitch up on departure as speed increases; again uncomfortable flying if trim is not adjusted down further.



Interesting point made regarding departure attitude and possible fuel starvation. Many factors, haven't read the incident report; was aux fuel pump on? Why did the pilot elect to take off with such a low fuel reserve? Was reserve position selected at the fuel valve?

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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:16 am Post subject: Flying with full down trim

Correct, and my trim motor was also at its down limit…..and consistent with my findings.

Cheers,

PeteZ



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Mar 31, 2022, at 5:43 AM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 So just to clarify this Pete; was it the trim indicator on the instrument panel that you set at the full down position? My aircraft flies fine with full down trim selected though its not very comfortable on departure or approach and requires a higher pilot work load. With 2 bars down trim selected my observations show the aircraft wanting to pitch up on departure as speed increases; again uncomfortable flying if trim is not adjusted down further.

 

 Interesting point made regarding departure attitude and possible fuel starvation. Many factors, haven't read the incident report; was aux fuel pump on? Why did the pilot elect to take off with such a low fuel reserve? Was reserve position selected at the fuel valve?

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=506452#506452

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Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 391

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: Flying with full down trim

Thanks... how did you find the aircraft handled in circuit on downwind and final with the trim set as you had? Did you find it a situation that was challenging or easily physically mitigated?

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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2022 1:38 pm Post subject: Flying with full down trim

everybody and aircraft are different, but simple bit of pressure and nothing special. Of course daydreaming isn't allowed (and never should be  )

The flare is obviously odd....if one is used to being trimmed out on final.

Cheers,

PeteZ



On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 4:19 PM Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com (goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Thanks... how did you find the aircraft handled in circuit on downwind and final with the trim set as you had? Did you find it a situation that was challenging or easily physically mitigated?

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=506461#506461

 

 

 

 

 

 

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