Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Which primer ?

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

daaza22

Joined: 09 Sep 2020
Posts: 33

Posted: Mon May 09, 2022 11:53 am Post subject: Which primer ?

Hi everybody

I am at the "fill and sand " stage of the build of my foam wing classic .

I am looking for your thoughts on the paint systems I can use .

I am in the UK so its needs to LAA compliant . Also a rough indication of the amount  of primer and top coat need please .

I asked Karen last year before she left Europa about paint but she said they 

no longer  supply or recommend any types .



cheers Darren

Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 392

Posted: Mon May 09, 2022 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Which primer ?

It depends how much time money and quality you are expecting; its a real how long is a piece of string question. Painting is an ordered process of preparation, cleanliness and layering; anyone can do it following the right technique. Its all about preparation.



PPG offer a great range of aviation tailored paint system; however you will need to ensure what ever base primer filler you use is suitable for the resin used to manufacture the europa's composite components; there are different types which are affected by different types of paint thinners.



That being said any paint system suitable for polyester resin would not affect the base structure.



PPG and GLASURIT are the two main producers of all major paint brand systems; then you have House of Color and a few other custom produces in the hotrod industry. The guy behind the counter will tell you which is which and the same for 50% less $$$$.



There are different automotive polyester fillers available with different mass qualities and softness; some are used for large areas others for feather finishing; watch some youtube so you understand which ones to use and when. Practice on the job. If you stuff up you can rub it off and start again.



What ever quality your base coat and filler is is what you will see at the end; this is where 90% of your time should be focused. Get some flexible "blocking" pads. Not the little palm size sponge pads; buy a kit of Dura-Block; they will last you a lifetime and get you a mirror glass surface finish everyone always expects from the little palm sponge. Again watch some youtube videos on how to use them affectively.



Personally I would stick with chemical solvent based epoxy primer and top coat all the way; have used water based systems and they are crap; that being said you can use water based primer and top coat right through and lay solvent based clear over the top at the end. You won't need etching primer as there is no metal for it to bond to but an epoxy "high-fill" primer may have an etching component already in it.



Buy a good spray gun for top coats; buy a cheap one for primer and spray filler... you will need at least 30cfm water filtered air supply, and a clean dust free room, to get a good top coat finish, if breathing a filtered air supply is an issue then stick to an acrylic water based paint system; epoxy solvent based systems are cyanide based and will make you feel quite ill for maybe many years or collapse on the floor dead in about 20-30 minutes if wearing no breathing filter at all.



You do not need a baking oven; baking ovens merely speed up curing time and allow the paint to flow out over the surface a bit better. The paint will still "flash" off  at the same time oven or no oven. Know your flash times when planning your top and finishing coat spraying; this will affect your surface finish quality. Read the manufacturer's mixing notes on ambient humidity and temperature and stick to them like gospel; this will affect everything as well



Other options are forget the top coats and get the aircraft professionally vinyl wrapped for $$$$.



If all that sounds too much then you can go really really old school by heating up some oil based shellac paint and flow it on by hand with really expensive sable brushes and hoping dust and flies don't land on it for 24/36 hours!!!

budyerly@msn.com

Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 286
Location: Florida USA

Posted: Mon May 09, 2022 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Which primer ?

I whole heartedly agree.



Buy a paint system (primer and paint per the manufacturer), read what we all have done.  The fill process is put on too much and sand it all off.  



I wrote on what I use and is on the Website, but the key is good equipment and paint.  I personally don't like polyester fillers directly on epoxy, but if you prime bare epoxy first then put polyester filler over the primer, it works just fine and is faster than expand cell and epoxy.  Although expand cell/epoxy is a great filler and flexible, cure time is a pain. Getting it consistent is also an issue that high grade polyester or vinyl ester fillers don't have.  That's why professionals use these off the shelf fillers, they are faster and more consistent.



Epoxy primer sticks to etching and lacquer primers and fillers extremely well.  A good two part polyurethane top coat made for aircraft is preferred over any car paint for super long lasting shine.  



Good materials cost more, but frankly, the tech support is great if you have an issue, they can walk you through painting in imperfect conditions.  Do not skimp on safety gear.  Don't breath in polyurethane paint get a forced air system.



Equipment makes a difference.  Good sanding blocks, time and patience makes the difference on prep.  A smooth filler sanding makes for a good looking job.  Any sanding scratch or pin hole will show through nearly all filler primers.   Good primers sanded out properly allow you to take care of pin holes, and makes the top coat finish gratifying.  It is all about the prep.  



Best Regards,

Bud Yerly

daaza22

Joined: 09 Sep 2020
Posts: 33

Posted: Tue May 10, 2022 6:05 am Post subject: Re: Which primer ?

Thanks for that  guy's .

I have already download and printed your guide to finishing  Bud .

What I am really looking for is the type , brand and approx  quantities 

prime and top coat needed .

That said I am grateful for any advise  ,thanks again.



Darren

Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 392

Posted: Tue May 10, 2022 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Which primer ?

With top coats personally I would use Baslac (made by and as good as Glasurit at 50% the cost)... next down i would use PPG.. I will never ever use Debeer again; destroyed an entire project (Valspar is their economy line; just as bad)... Glasurit also do aviation aerospace paint systems; if you want to use PPG aerospace its more affordable, and as Bud notes they are more robust than automotive; keep in mind you are not building a space shuttle or commercial liner and your treasured aircraft will be out in the sun less than the family sedan... the aerospace paints have toxic corrosion inhibitors in them as well.... clear coat is not a necessity; it will tend to yellow over time and is more problematic to repair but scratches can be buffed out; its a personal preference thing.



Read the product MSDS sheets so you know what toxins you are playing with before you start...



On primers... Depends on the primer used; the heavier the tin the more solids the product contains and better value/quality... if you go with a "high fill" all-in-one "high solids" primer you affectively get about 3-4 layers of standard primer in one application and depending on your compressor and spray gun nozzle you can lay it on really thick and block straight back after 36hours curing; wet on wet with first run a fast light mist to aid adhesion then back over for full coverage; you will probably need at least two sessions with primer and maybe a third... 



I used All-U-Need on my last project which is a great product; you just can't leave it for months though before blocking otherwise it will fully cure and be too hard to block back easily. It provides a 12hr window to spray another fresh coat on and it will fully seal off against any moisture absorption 12L will do the whole aircraft; greatest part about the product's quality is its almost zero shrinkage ratio between wet application and sustained curing cycle; so if your blocking is perfect its going to stay perfect period.



8L of body filler is a good start and you will probably find you need more; 4L of feather fine will probably do you; make sure the hardner on each product is still in date... All-U-Need is a base primer/sealer that you use your fillers over top of while blocking and its fully compatible with all industrial paint systems. You can finish off with another coat of All-U-Need and do a final block down and you're ready for top coats. Job will be sealed against moisture until you do... watch your spray suit and airline don't drag over the painted surface as you go and have a step ladder on each side to get height when needed... 



8L of top coat might just get you there; buy some extra for any future paint repairs... then you got your mixing/measuring containers, pouring filters, tack rags, solvent rags, wax & grease remover, sanding discs and strips 120 right through to 2000 grit - and here's the caveat; keep the surface build (layers) as thin as possible, and under no circumstances ever let silicone anything near or get onto the prep surface... 



most of the primer filler you put on will end up as dust on the floor... calculate how much product will be needed for each wet session/task and have it setup premixed at room temperature ready to refill the spraygun pot as you go; plan your wet sessions really well... 



See if Peter still does his Melomotive youtube videos, you'll pick up a lot of useful practical knowledge and skills there. And use a good quality 3M 6000 series or better dust mask.

daaza22

Joined: 09 Sep 2020
Posts: 33

Posted: Tue May 10, 2022 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Which primer ?

thats all great info thanks . I will check out the types you mentioned and have a search on youtube for the videos .



Also do you have any thoughts on spray systems   HVLP  vs LVLP  etc 



Cheers Darren

Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 392

Posted: Tue May 10, 2022 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: Which primer ?

Traditional LVLP setup; use a standard suction style gun for all your prep work; it doesn't need to be anything expensive; if you do use All-U-Need you will need a larger nozel as it is a heavily solids loaded product so youwill need to remove or upgrade the pickup strainer in the paint pot.



Invest in a good gravity fed gun and a few sets of spare seals and pot strainers for your top coats and keep it thoroughly clean always before and after use; put about 250ml of cheap thinners through it at the end of each session before you strip it down and clean it; it will last a lifetime if you care for it properly. You don't need the most expensive one just a mid level professional unit. Upgrade to a 1L paint pot if it doesnt already have one. Never leave mixed 2pak paint in the pot for more than 24hr. If the paint sets off in the gun you will probably have to throw it in the bin; same for your primer gun. If you can afford a second standby gun for top coats then do it. Top coats can be stressful the more you can do to prevent delays during the session the more relaxing the job will be.



Have a designated test board to spray on and tune your spray pattern and paint saturation before hitting the actual job. Get your technique sorted before hitting the job surfaces. Work out the point where your paint starts to run; when it does you've put it on too thick; once it looks wet move on to another spot; work broadly steadily and quickly; know your "flash times" and don't spray back into flashed paint; so again plan how you are going to move around the job "wet on wet" to stay ahead of the flash time. You want to be able to lay down a quick mist coat followed by a full wet coat. You will be doing this over three seperate sessions for your top coat, and two sessions if finishing off with final clear.



Apply a cheap guide coat over the job for your final blocking sessions; you can also use your first top coat if you can afford it. Your guide coat should be a contrasting shade to your base coat and fillers.



Again follow the manufacturer instructions (not the guy spraying cars all day or guy behind the counter) on humidity, ambient temperature, paint to thinner/extender ratios, flash times, and pot life.



Work out what the different adjustments on the gun do to the spray pattern and surface quality. If something goes wrong while you are spraying stop straight away and get it rectified rather than flying on into the bad weather; top coat is expensive.



Plan where you are going to clean and wash your gun when finished; well away from the job.



Youtube "blocked spray nozzle" because it may and probably will happen mid session... know how to flush out the nozzle and tell tale signs of a blockage; experience will find you hearing when it happens.



Get a good water trap installed on your compressor and a smaller inline one at the gun. You will need earplugs. 



Use a plain airline rather than a coiled one.



Heavy paints like high fill primer, overspray will fall to the ground quickly rather than float around in the air; the opposite will occur with top coats which will get on everything.... everything; if you can gain access to a booth for these top coat sessions take it; creating a booth at home is not difficult though with enough plastic sheet, fly screen and exhaust fan to pull the mist away from the work surfaces; you can wet the floor before painting which prevents a lot of dust being fluffed around.



White is the best colour to apply its the least revealing of imperfections when complete; black is the total opposite; thats why great quality base coats are black.



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wfwq3PdZfnQ



Peter is an old school surface scientist... you will save time, frustration, and money...

daaza22

Joined: 09 Sep 2020
Posts: 33

Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 5:56 am Post subject: Re: Which primer ?

Thanks for that  guy's .

I have already download and printed your guide to finishing  Bud .

What I am really looking for is the type , brand and approx  quantities 

prime and top coat needed .

That said I am grateful for any advise  ,thanks again.



Darren

Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 392

Posted: Wed May 11, 2022 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: Which primer ?

16L of highcoat spray primer sealer

8L of heavy body filler

4L of lite body filler

400x400x6 nylon mixing pallet

8L of top coat + thinner reducer

4L of clear coat + thinner reducer (if using)

4L of cheap cleaning thinner

4L of prepsol wax remover

Set of Durablocs

Set of splines or 1m, 750mm, 400mm steel rulers

x40 80grit sanding discs

x40 120grit sanding discs

x40 400grit sanding discs

5m of 80grit sanding strip

10m of 120grit sanding strip

10m of 400grit sanding strip

x4 packets of tack cloth

bag of lint free pure cotton wiping cloth

x8 1L paint mixing jugs (disposable)

x1 paint measuring stick

x1 thermometer and humidity meter

x1 note pad, pen, calculator

x30 pouring filters (disposable)

x5 paint pot strainers 

x3 EN dust musk refills

x2 stand mounted fluorescent work lights

Pack if cheap tooth brushes, bottle brushes, pipe cleaners to clean sprays guns

Pack of cheap disposable plastic plastic ground sheets

x10 rolls of green painters masking tape



That is about what it takes to quality paint an entire family size sedan body shell of about 200ft2 surface area



Manufacturers state nominal surface area coverage for their products; add 30% contingency.



PPG and Glasurit aerospace top coat is the same as automotive with boosted UV content ratio and high gloss agent added. PPG and Glasurit aerospace primer is same as automotive with additional chromium lead and other toxic corrosion inhibitors and electrolytic chemical etch bonding agents added. The aerospace coatings cure much harder as well. You will not scrape Glasurit's green aerospace etch primer off an aluminium surface..



If you want a super slippery low friction non scratchable surface finish that is as hard as granite then have the entire exterior treated with Ceramic-Pro at the end.

daaza22

Joined: 09 Sep 2020
Posts: 33

Posted: Thu May 12, 2022 9:43 am Post subject: Re: Which primer ?

thanks again .

I will get going on my shopping list...

cheers

Area-51

Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 392

Posted: Sat May 21, 2022 3:29 am Post subject: Re: Which primer ?

For anyone interested in PPG Aerospace paint line, here are a few usable products of choice...

PR30BZP-Etch-Primer.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

PR30BZP-Etch-Primer.pdf

Filesize:

767.4 KB

Downloaded:

389 Time(s)

PAC33-Polyurethane-Primer.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

PAC33-Polyurethane-Primer.pdf

Filesize:

797.2 KB

Downloaded:

719 Time(s)

P99-Wash-Primer.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

P99-Wash-Primer.pdf

Filesize:

791.39 KB

Downloaded:

225 Time(s)

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum