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rparigoris
Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 796
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 Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:44 pm Post subject: Anti Door Warping |
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Hi Area 51
Seems you kinda like uncovering Europa secrets using your computer. Perhaps you want to give a try and uncover the secret geometry of passive pin that will actually pull down the top aft edge of door. In addition, install of a passive mid door sill pin and striker that keeps door nicely in place and will prevent bulge. These two tips came from Neville. He preferred leaving the gas cylinder mount original location (compared to factory mod), reinforce corner with some CF and install passive pin. It took a number of E-Mails to get it straight in my mind precise details. After making a perfect model, got it figured.
Here's a link to build: pages 19 to 26:
http://www.europaowners.org/gallery2/v/Begin-06-2003/Cockpit+above+door+sills/album246/?g2_page=19
Ron P.
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 5:27 pm Post subject: Anti Door Warping |
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Im still planning on adding an over-center cam into the rebate to take all the compressed (closed) forces of the gas strut, totally unloading the door when closed.
Just haven't got to it yet, just like my cable-handle door hinge-pins inverted escape puller 
Cheers,
PeteZ
| Quote: | On Dec 5, 2022, at 7:51 PM, rparigoris <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi Area 51
Seems you kinda like uncovering Europa secrets using your computer. Perhaps you want to give a try and uncover the secret geometry of passive pin that will actually pull down the top aft edge of door. In addition, install of a passive mid door sill pin and striker that keeps door nicely in place and will prevent bulge. These two tips came from Neville. He preferred leaving the gas cylinder mount original location (compared to factory mod), reinforce corner with some CF and install passive pin. It took a number of E-Mails to get it straight in my mind precise details. After making a perfect model, got it figured.
Here's a link to build: pages 19 to 26:
http://www.europaowners.org/gallery2/v/Begin-06-2003/Cockpit+above+door+sills/album246/?g2_page=19
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509454#509454
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RSheridan(at)specialist-a
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 5:14 am Post subject: Anti Door Warping |
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That passive pin is a tricky problem to solve, to offload the gas strut but not obstruct door closing fully.
My practical efforts were unsuccessful & I would love to see a CAD solution Santa…………...
| Quote: | On 6 Dec 2022, at 00:44, rparigoris <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
CAUTION: This email originated from outside your organization. Exercise caution when opening attachments or on clicking links from unknown senders.
Hi Area 51
Seems you kinda like uncovering Europa secrets using your computer. Perhaps you want to give a try and uncover the secret geometry of passive pin that will actually pull down the top aft edge of door. In addition, install of a passive mid door sill pin and striker that keeps door nicely in place and will prevent bulge. These two tips came from Neville. He preferred leaving the gas cylinder mount original location (compared to factory mod), reinforce corner with some CF and install passive pin. It took a number of E-Mails to get it straight in my mind precise details. After making a perfect model, got it figured.
Here's a link to build: pages 19 to 26:
http://www.europaowners.org/gallery2/v/Begin-06-2003/Cockpit+above+door+sills/album246/?g2_page=19
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509454#509454
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Roger Sheridan
Line Pilot
+44 (0) 1737 822 885
www.specialist-aviation.com
Specialist Aviation Services Limited – Registered in England and Wales No:1848773
Registered office: Gloucestershire Airport, Staverton, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire GL51 6SS
This message and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the use of the person to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, copy or distribute this message or any attachments. Any such action may be unlawful. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and delete it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored.
Internet communications may be intercepted, corrupted, lost, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that have arisen as a result of email transmission or for viruses. It is your responsibility to conduct your own virus checking. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any opinions expressed are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company.
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Burrilla
Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 6:12 am Post subject: Anti Door Warping |
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I wonder sometime why the gas strut.
There are some bonnets/boots/trunk and other doors that have a simple slide and latch open solution. This has the advantage of holding door open and you the push a release to allow door to drop, while holding it to stop sudden descent, but no pressure on any part of door frame.
I don’t have any off-shelf mechanisms in mind for this that I’ve tried.
Thoughts, problems?
Alan
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On 7 Dec 2022, at 13:15, SHERIDAN Roger <RSheridan(at)specialist-aviation.com> wrote:
That passive pin is a tricky problem to solve, to offload the gas strut but not obstruct door closing fully.
My practical efforts were unsuccessful & I would love to see a CAD solution Santa…………...
> On 6 Dec 2022, at 00:44, rparigoris <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside your organization. Exercise caution when opening attachments or on clicking links from unknown senders.
>
>
>
> Hi Area 51
> Seems you kinda like uncovering Europa secrets using your computer. Perhaps you want to give a try and uncover the secret geometry of passive pin that will actually pull down the top aft edge of door. In addition, install of a passive mid door sill pin and striker that keeps door nicely in place and will prevent bulge. These two tips came from Neville. He preferred leaving the gas cylinder mount original location (compared to factory mod), reinforce corner with some CF and install passive pin. It took a number of E-Mails to get it straight in my mind precise details. After making a perfect model, got it figured.
> Here's a link to build: pages 19 to 26:
> http://www.europaowners.org/gallery2/v/Begin-06-2003/Cockpit+above+door+sills/album246/?g2_page=19
> Ron P.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509454#509454
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Roger Sheridan
Line Pilot
+44 (0) 1737 822 885
www.specialist-aviation.com
Specialist Aviation Services Limited – Registered in England and Wales No:1848773
Registered office: Gloucestershire Airport, Staverton, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire GL51 6SS
This message and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the use of the person to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, copy or distribute this message or any attachments. Any such action may be unlawful. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and delete it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored.
Internet communications may be intercepted, corrupted, lost, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that have arisen as a result of email transmission or for viruses. It is your responsibility to conduct your own virus checking. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any opinions expressed are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company.
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Duncan McFadyean
Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Posts: 222
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:36 am Post subject: Anti Door Warping |
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Lots of ideas in this thread:
https://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/threads/keeping-a-swing-over-canopy-open.39598/#post-690498
Personally I like Justin's "scissor" mechanism best (which contains the gas strut loads when the door is shut). Anyone got any dimensioned drawings for that?
Duncan McF.
| Quote: | On 07 December 2022 at 14:11 Alan Burrill <alanb(at)dpy01.co.uk> wrote:
I wonder sometime why the gas strut.
There are some bonnets/boots/trunk and other doors that have a simple slide and latch open solution. This has the advantage of holding door open and you the push a release to allow door to drop, while holding it to stop sudden descent, but no pressure on any part of door frame.
I don’t have any off-shelf mechanisms in mind for this that I’ve tried.
Thoughts, problems?
Alan
Sent from my iPad
> On 7 Dec 2022, at 13:15, SHERIDAN Roger <RSheridan(at)specialist-aviation.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> That passive pin is a tricky problem to solve, to offload the gas strut but not obstruct door closing fully.
> My practical efforts were unsuccessful & I would love to see a CAD solution Santa…………...
>
>> On 6 Dec 2022, at 00:44, rparigoris <rparigor(at)hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> CAUTION: This email originated from outside your organization. Exercise caution when opening attachments or on clicking links from unknown senders.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Area 51
>> Seems you kinda like uncovering Europa secrets using your computer. Perhaps you want to give a try and uncover the secret geometry of passive pin that will actually pull down the top aft edge of door. In addition, install of a passive mid door sill pin and striker that keeps door nicely in place and will prevent bulge. These two tips came from Neville. He preferred leaving the gas cylinder mount original location (compared to factory mod), reinforce corner with some CF and install passive pin. It took a number of E-Mails to get it straight in my mind precise details. After making a perfect model, got it figured.
>> Here's a link to build: pages 19 to 26:
>> http://www.europaowners.org/gallery2/v/Begin-06-2003/Cockpit+above+door+sills/album246/?g2_page=19
>> Ron P.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509454#509454
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Roger Sheridan
>
> Line Pilot
>
> +44 (0) 1737 822 885
>
>
> www.specialist-aviation.com
>
> Specialist Aviation Services Limited – Registered in England and Wales No:1848773
> Registered office: Gloucestershire Airport, Staverton, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire GL51 6SS
>
> This message and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the use of the person to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, copy or distribute this message or any attachments. Any such action may be unlawful. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and delete it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored.
> Internet communications may be intercepted, corrupted, lost, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that have arisen as a result of email transmission or for viruses. It is your responsibility to conduct your own virus checking. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any opinions expressed are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Scanned by SystemForce I.T. PRMX Security System
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Area-51
Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 397
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:59 pm Post subject: Re: Anti Door Warping |
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Hi Ron, thanks for your request regarding door warping... to be straight up its not an issue i have time to sit and examine; my time is constantly truly limited.
The CAD testing calls for a non dynamic testing algorithm which will not be accurate enough to be useful to anybody due to so many variables; and that is the b&w of what you are asking.
Cardboard is your best friend (and a pencil and some basic map charting tools) ; draw your solution and proof it on paper first using a pencil and circles; i think thats how your passive pin system works? (See attached basic sketch)... its going to be a solution of two arcs; the swing of the door frame and shape of the pin and its parking gate. If you can get it to work with paper stencils then it will work in situ. CAD will not provide you any better result or magic solution. All CAD will provide you is the ability to record and replicate; that's the only magic CAD will ever provide anybody. Personally from my quick sketch i don't think it is a practical solution but more of a band aid for a greater upstream affect; i could be totally wrong and often am.
The issue is not really safety related, which is my focus. It does hold some aerodynamic qualities there, and the simple solution "is" strengthen the door frame sufficiently at the time of production.
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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RSheridan(at)specialist-a
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:26 am Post subject: Anti Door Warping |
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Thanks for that suggestion A51.
My passive pin attempt had too much friction but the roller idea is a great one that I might try.
Alan, Dirk Oyen uses a passive support strut:
Roger Sheridan
Line Pilot
+44 (0) 1737 822 885
www.specialist-aviation.com
Specialist Aviation Services Limited – Registered in England and Wales No:1848773
Registered office: Gloucestershire Airport, Staverton, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire GL51 6SS
This message and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the use of the person to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, copy or distribute this message or any attachments. Any such action may be unlawful. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and delete it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored.
Internet communications may be intercepted, corrupted, lost, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that have arisen as a result of email transmission or for viruses. It is your responsibility to conduct your own virus checking. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any opinions expressed are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 6:39 am Post subject: Anti Door Warping |
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Overcenter cam…..no friction.
| Quote: | On Dec 8, 2022, at 9:38 AM, SHERIDAN Roger <RSheridan(at)specialist-aviation.com> wrote:
Thanks for that suggestion A51.
My passive pin attempt had too much friction but the roller idea is a great one that I might try.
Alan, Dirk Oyen uses a passive support strut:
Roger Sheridan
Line Pilot
+44 (0) 1737 822 885
www.specialist-aviation.com
Specialist Aviation Services Limited – Registered in England and Wales No:1848773
Registered office: Gloucestershire Airport, Staverton, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire GL51 6SS
This message and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the use of the person to whom they are addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, copy or distribute this message or any attachments. Any such action may be unlawful. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and delete it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored.
Internet communications may be intercepted, corrupted, lost, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that have arisen as a result of email transmission or for viruses. It is your responsibility to conduct your own virus checking. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any opinions expressed are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company.
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| Quote: |
> On 8 Dec 2022, at 06:59, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial(at)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> CAUTION: This email originated from outside your organization. Exercise caution when opening attachments or on clicking links from unknown senders.
>
>
>
> Hi Ron, thanks for your request regarding door warping... to be straight up its not an issue i have time to sit and examine; my time is constantly truly limited.
>
> The CAD testing calls for a non dynamic testing algorithm which will not be accurate enough to be useful to anybody due to so many variables; and that is the b&w of what you are asking.
>
> Cardboard is your best friend (and a pencil and some basic map charting tools) ; draw your solution and proof it on paper first using a pencil and circles; i think thats how your passive pin system works? (See attached basic sketch)... its going to be a solution of two arcs; the swing of the door frame and shape of the pin and its parking gate. If you can get it to work with paper stencils then it will work in situ. CAD will not provide you any better result or magic solution. All CAD will provide you is the ability to record and replicate; that's the only magic CAD will ever provide anybody. Personally from my quick sketch i don't think it is a practical solution but more of a band aid for a greater upstream affect; i could be totally wrong and often am.
>
> The issue is not really safety related, which is my focus. It does hold some aerodynamic qualities there, and the simple solution "is" strengthen the door frame sufficiently at the time of production.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509463#509463
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/eec4e83c_aec3_460b_9585_589875a3317f_205.jpeg
>
>
>
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n7188u
Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:55 am Post subject: Re: Anti Door Warping |
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Interesting thread.
My LongEZ has a simple scissor type with over-center locking bar to keep the canopy open. In the LEZ case the latch only moves 90° were in ours it needs to go 180° but it should not be too hard to modify.
Simple and works well. The canopy doesn't slam down on your head as it happens on my EU once in awhile (I actually taxi with the door partially closed held open with a small foam block).
Chris
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Area-51
Joined: 03 May 2021
Posts: 397
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: Anti Door Warping |
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The best and simplest solution ever for this type of hatch can be found on the rear window of the Hillman Imp produced by Rootes Group Scotland 1961-1976; had a few for 25 years and never had a failure.
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Burrilla
Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 187
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:25 pm Post subject: Anti Door Warping |
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rparigoris
Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 796
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Anti Door Warping |
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Hi Group
Nev's solution with passive pins and CF reinforcement works great. I made cardboard mock up and was able to get geometry spot on. Had packaging tape on fuse and used JB KWIK Weld to temporarily hold in exact position. Then once bonded in perfect position and all is working great we then drilled fuse for screws. If alignment is not spot on friction is high and it doesn't work.
It's hard to get your head around the geometry, but once you do, it works great. We did install over a decade ago and all is well. The pin and striker are made out of SS.
My build partner Wayne was not convinced with my cardboard mock up. He called it a muck up! It took him till after completion of pins and striker install and actual fooling with to be convinced.
Ron P.
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