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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
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 Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2023 4:11 pm Post subject: ELT position and antenna |
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So i want to reposition my ELT ARTEX 345 and up to now i have a whip
Currently I have mine in the baggage bay. What other options are there?
Are there any alternatives to the whip antenna?
thanks
Will
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+1 786 878 0246
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h&jeuropa
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2023 8:08 am Post subject: Re: ELT position and antenna |
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Will,
I have the same ELT.
You can mount the whip antenna anywhere and connect it to the box with a length of coax.
I had a problem when I had the ELT mounted near the rudder close out because that is very close to my comm antenna and using comm would trigger the ELT.
Perhaps leave the ELT where it is now and move the antenna to a more convenient location. Artex doesn’t specify if the antenna is to be vertical or horizontal but I would guess vertical is better.
Jim
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rparigoris
Joined: 24 Nov 2009
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rparigoris
Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 796
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2023 11:38 am Post subject: Re: ELT position and antenna |
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Hi Will
Forgot to mention, on both of our ELTs, Mfg said if their antenna wasn't used, unit would not be officially blessed. Both said OK to extend antenna location with coax. Both suggested using a ground plane. That said won't do you much good if upside down.
Ron P.
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budyerly@msn.com
Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 288
Location: Florida USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 8:12 am Post subject: ELT position and antenna |
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Will,
I've installed the ELT antenna a number of ways.
I've installed an AAE carbon fiber antenna with a splitter for a handheld antenna to also connect to for better backup com options. VHF only
I've simply installed the whip antenna with a radial ground plane equal to the antenna length in the rear floor and a small support for the antenna tip to prevent it from making noise.
I've installed a tail mounted dipole unit onto a tail post before finishing (no com antenna near it).
Normally the Artex or now discontinued AmeriKing were mostly installed below the baggage bay for ease of service. It was simple to run a coax to the whip antenna supplied or an AAE carbon antenna. The new 406/121.5 dual frequency whip antenna Artex uses is supposedly good for both frequencies. For VHF 121.5 the ground plane for a quarter wave is 33-36 inches but some do a half 1/4 wave so about 8.5 inches diameter, but I find the signal weak using a handheld vhf on 121.5 using an 8 inch circle alone. Since the Artex 345 is a 15 inch whip antenna a simple 15 inch radius ground plane of 4-8 radials works fine.
I always had to laugh at myself when explaining to a customer that placing the ELT antenna and the com also in the mid fuselage was interesting. As the ELT only works when you crash so who cares about spacing the antennas except for reflection, then if separated by 36 inches, reflection is not an issue. Heck in our composite aircraft I wonder if we could just use the gear leg as part of the dipole. Some smart guy needs to look into that.
Just run a couple of tapes about 30 inches long out from the hat section in the drawing I've attached, and it works. Normally I tack the legs with superglue then lay a thin bit of glass over the fragile copper tape. Some use a copper braid and some just run aluminum strips using aluminum tape but if using tape make sure you remove the glue at the contact points to assure a good ground. If near the side of the fuselage just run the spider web out one side. It still works but is a bit directional. I won't run a radius up the fuselage wall vertically where it can reflect back at the antenna.
We don't know what direction the fuselage will end up in a crash but install the antenna within 20 degrees of vertical and near the fuselage centerline or the inspector will die of a heart attack.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
My ELT is an EBC 302 121.5 and 243.0 VHF/UHF Easy to install but the alkaline battery is expensive and can corrode destroying the unit. Replacement for a 406 model is prohibitively expensive.
--
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 11:18 am Post subject: ELT position and antenna |
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Additional ELT tidbit: I have installed the Kannad Integra - with internal GPS and internal antenna - in the case when the external antenna breaks off etc as is most common.
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/search/search.php
Nice unit.
Cheers,
PeteZ
[quote]On Jan 8, 2023, at 11:19 AM, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:
Will,
I've installed the ELT antenna a number of ways.
I've installed an AAE carbon fiber antenna with a splitter for a handheld antenna to also connect to for better backup com options. VHF only
I've simply installed the whip antenna with a radial ground plane equal to the antenna length in the rear floor and a small support for the antenna tip to prevent it from making noise.
I've installed a tail mounted dipole unit onto a tail post before finishing (no com antenna near it).
Normally the Artex or now discontinued AmeriKing were mostly installed below the baggage bay for ease of service. It was simple to run a coax to the whip antenna supplied or an AAE carbon antenna. The new 406/121.5 dual frequency whip antenna Artex uses is supposedly good for both frequencies. For VHF 121.5 the ground plane for a quarter wave is 33-36 inches but some do a half 1/4 wave so about 8.5 inches diameter, but I find the signal weak using a handheld vhf on 121.5 using an 8 inch circle alone. Since the Artex 345 is a 15 inch whip antenna a simple 15 inch radius ground plane of 4-8 radials works fine.
I always had to laugh at myself when explaining to a customer that placing the ELT antenna and the com also in the mid fuselage was interesting. As the ELT only works when you crash so who cares about spacing the antennas except for reflection, then if separated by 36 inches, reflection is not an issue. Heck in our composite aircraft I wonder if we could just use the gear leg as part of the dipole. Some smart guy needs to look into that.
Just run a couple of tapes about 30 inches long out from the hat section in the drawing I've attached, and it works. Normally I tack the legs with superglue then lay a thin bit of glass over the fragile copper tape. Some use a copper braid and some just run aluminum strips using aluminum tape but if using tape make sure you remove the glue at the contact points to assure a good ground. If near the side of the fuselage just run the spider web out one side. It still works but is a bit directional. I won't run a radius up the fuselage wall vertically where it can reflect back at the antenna.
We don't know what direction the fuselage will end up in a crash but install the antenna within 20 degrees of vertical and near the fuselage centerline or the inspector will die of a heart attack.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
My ELT is an EBC 302 121.5 and 243.0 VHF/UHF Easy to install but the alkaline battery is expensive and can corrode destroying the unit. Replacement for a 406 model is prohibitively expensive.
--
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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2023 4:09 pm Post subject: ELT position and antenna |
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Bud
thanks
A funny thing... I have an antenna "connector" underneath the doorsill
(like many things I do, I don't have an answer as to why I did this except
that it seemed like a good idea at the time....). So anyway after my tank
rebuild I reconnect the com to the Artex ELT whip antenna (no ground plane)
and the ELT to the com antenna (AAE antenna). I had it like this for
about 2 weeks. Everyone could hear me fine and I could hear traffic
in Pahokee about 100m away.
Back to the question at hand.
I know that Artex will say that you have to use their antenna. That said I
am wondering if there is a solution more in tune with our aircraft. My
aircraft already has its airworthiness so no inspectors to offend* "install
the antenna within 20 degrees of vertical and near the fuselage centerline
or the inspector will die of a heart attack".*
Do you think that this would work?
https://www.kitplanes.com/elt-enlightenment/.
[image: image.png]
Construction details for the antenna (left). The element on the left is the
classic “straight out” layout while the element on the right is how you can
build it missing random structures while still remaining a good antenna.
Both elements can be straight, both elements can be crooked, or it can be
as shown, one straight and one crooked. Do not under any circumstances ask
me what the pattern is going to look like for a crooked antenna element.
How well did we match the transmitter to the antenna? At 121.5 MHz the
match is about 2.5, and at 406 the match is a little better at 2.2. Either
one is more than acceptable (right).
*For those of you with plastic ships, a plain old half-wave (two
quarter-wave elements made of half-inch copper tape 21.2 inches long )
dipole will work well. Simple, cheap, and works perfectly. You can bend it
around, twist it to miss structural members or lay it out perfectly
straight. Just remember that maximum radiation is at right angles to the
antenna and practically none off the ends of the elements.*
*The question has often been asked of me, “Should the ELT antenna be
mounted horizontally or vertically?” The answer has always been the same:
If you can tell me the orientation of the crumpled remains of the fuselage
in the middle of the dust cloud when you really need the ELT, I can tell
you the orientation. In my experience, a random guess is every bit as good
as anything else.*
It sounds like I could make a zigzag antenna as long as each leg is 21.2".
Perhaps the rear cabin bulkhead might be a good location.
Thanks Will
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+1 786 878 0246
On Sun, Jan 8, 2023 at 11:14 AM Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com> wrote:
[quote] Will,
I've installed the ELT antenna a number of ways.
I've installed an AAE carbon fiber antenna with a splitter for a handheld
antenna to also connect to for better backup com options. VHF only
I've simply installed the whip antenna with a radial ground plane equal to
the antenna length in the rear floor and a small support for the antenna
tip to prevent it from making noise.
I've installed a tail mounted dipole unit onto a tail post before
finishing (no com antenna near it).
Normally the Artex or now discontinued AmeriKing were mostly installed
below the baggage bay for ease of service. It was simple to run a coax to
the whip antenna supplied or an AAE carbon antenna. The new 406/121.5 dual
frequency whip antenna Artex uses is supposedly good for both frequencies
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erichdtrombley(at)juno.co
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2023 6:53 am Post subject: ELT position and antenna |
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All this discussion on ELTs reminded me of the following video. As typical of Paul, it’s a good combination of data crunching and humor. Enjoy.
Erich Trombley
N28ET Classic Mono 914
https://youtu.be/d1YjGLwfYSQ
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h&jeuropa
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:34 am Post subject: Re: ELT position and antenna |
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Will,
The antenna you posted will work just fine. Go for it!
As Paul’s U Tube video explains, ELT really isn’t a very good system, especially today with ADSB. So install what you are comfortable with and go fly.
Jim
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2023 6:43 am Post subject: ELT position and antenna |
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I agree with paul, but alas still no ADSB mandate here yet in canada sadly. Thus why i went with the Kanad with its internal backup antenna.
Cheers,
PeteZ
| Quote: | On Jan 10, 2023, at 9:40 AM, h&jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net> wrote:
Will,
The antenna you posted will work just fine. Go for it!
As Paul’s U Tube video explains, ELT really isn’t a very good system, especially today with ADSB. So install what you are comfortable with and go fly.
Jim
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509922#509922
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n7188u
Joined: 15 Nov 2015
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: ELT position and antenna |
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I once read why these ELT manufacturers tell you you must use their antenna or else. It's just that the ELT was certified to meet TSO when tested with their antenna so if you want it to remain TSO then it is required that you use their antenna. But I am with the camp that any antenna of the correct frequency is OK.
Chris
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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:01 pm Post subject: ELT position and antenna |
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And another thing....
So as i understand it the maximum transmission is at right angles to the antenna and almost none off the end. So why does the antenna have to be vertical if we are transmitting to satellites?
Anyway enough of that....i will connect my antenna and have done with it.
Thanks everyone
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Fri, Jan 13, 2023, 16:21 n7188u <chmgarb(at)gmail.com (chmgarb(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "n7188u" <chmgarb(at)gmail.com (chmgarb(at)gmail.com)>
I once read why these ELT manufacturers tell you you must use their antenna or else. It's just that the ELT was certified to meet TSO when tested with their antenna so if you want it to remain TSO then it is required that you use their antenna. But I am with the camp that any antenna of the correct frequency is OK.
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509939#509939
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budyerly@msn.com
Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 288
Location: Florida USA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2023 4:41 pm Post subject: ELT position and antenna |
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Now you know why I just use the supplied antenna in the back most of the time.
Bud
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of William Daniell
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2023 7:01 PM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: ELT position and antenna
And another thing....
So as i understand it the maximum transmission is at right angles to the antenna and almost none off the end. So why does the antenna have to be vertical if we are transmitting to satellites?
Anyway enough of that....i will connect my antenna and have done with it.
Thanks everyone
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Fri, Jan 13, 2023, 16:21 n7188u <chmgarb(at)gmail.com (chmgarb(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
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h&jeuropa
Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 645
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2023 4:43 am Post subject: Re: ELT position and antenna |
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Will,
The radiation pattern of a vertical antenna is omni-directional. That is why they specify vertical. Satellites will "see" the ELT as the satellite comes over the horizon. Of course, this all assumes the wreckage comes to rest with the antenna still vertical!
Jim
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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2023 5:32 am Post subject: ELT position and antenna |
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I have so much to learn....Thanks
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Sat, Jan 14, 2023, 07:46 h&jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> Europa-List message posted by: "h&jeuropa" <butcher43(at)att.net (butcher43(at)att.net)>
Will,
The radiation pattern of a vertical antenna is omni-directional. That is why they specify vertical. Satellites will "see" the ELT as the satellite comes over the horizon. Of course, this all assumes the wreckage comes to rest with the antenna still vertical!
Jim
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509946#509946
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2023 5:33 am Post subject: ELT position and antenna |
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…and its still attached……or the elt has a second internal antenna, like the Kanada.
PeteZ
| Quote: | On Jan 14, 2023, at 7:51 AM, h&jeuropa <butcher43(at)att.net> wrote:
Will,
The radiation pattern of a vertical antenna is omni-directional. That is why they specify vertical. Satellites will "see" the ELT as the satellite comes over the horizon. Of course, this all assumes the wreckage comes to rest with the antenna still vertical!
Jim
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509946#509946
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