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gfhperry(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 6:53 pm Post subject: Arplast Propeller problems

Hello Guys, 



thanks for a great forum!  I have an Arplast VP50 propeller. I have a problem with the pitch change system. When tested on the ground, I can run the pitch from full corse to full fine with no problems. I get normal operation for a while in flight, then the pitch change seems to stop working. When I test the prop after shut down, the pitch change motor does not seem to have enough torque to run from one limit to the other. The motor stalls after very little movement. Any ideas what could be the problem? I have been careful to lubricate the jack screw often, so I dont think that is the problem. Any idea where I could get a new motor? And as a last resort (considering the demise of Arplast), what propellers are approved for G registered Europaâ€™s?



Thanks, Glenn Perry G-DLCB Classic Mono, 912UL

Roland

Joined: 30 Nov 2009
Posts: 334
Location: EDLE

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:38 pm Post subject: Re: Arplast Propeller problems

Hi Glenn,



if you need a new propeller, I would go for an Airmaster AP 332 (which is approved in the UK, since I've bought my Europa there with that prop). Top Quality, top service, although not quite cheap.  



Regards and good luck with troubleshooting

Roland

PH-ZTI

XS TG 914

Burrilla

Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 185

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:57 pm Post subject: Arplast Propeller problems

I donâ€™t run a VP prop but I recall from other posts that the electrical supply through the brushes is important and any high resistance due to poor contact or wear on the brushes might have similar effects.



Alan



G-OBJT

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 8 Mar 2017, at 02:52, Glenn Perry <gfhperry(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Hello Guys, 

 

 thanks for a great forum!  I have an Arplast VP50 propeller. I have a problem with the pitch change system. When tested on the ground, I can run the pitch from full corse to full fine with no problems. I get normal operation for a while in flight, then the pitch change seems to stop working. When I test the prop after shut down, the pitch change motor does not seem to have enough torque to run from one limit to the other. The motor stalls after very little movement. Any ideas what could be the problem? I have been careful to lubricate the jack screw often, so I dont think that is the problem. Any idea where I could get a new motor? And as a last resort (considering the demise of Arplast), what propellers are approved for G registered Europaâ€™s?

 

 Thanks, Glenn Perry G-DLCB Classic Mono, 912UL

italianjon

Joined: 05 Aug 2015
Posts: 68

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:49 pm Post subject: Re: Arplast Propeller problems

Hi Glenn,



Sorry if I am "teaching my grandmother to suck eggs", I know it's almost impossible to communicate on these forums your entire troubleshooting history and everything that you have done up to now in a concise few sentences.



One of your statements that jumps off the page at me, is that you have no issues on ground tests, I assume from the way you've written it, that means before the flight - is that correct? And then after the flight has completed, the issue remains - again, is that the correct understanding?



Do you have the Arplast standard VP controller installed?, or a CS controller (CSC-1 etc.)? If you have the Arplast controller, have you changed the batteries (sorry, obvious question   )



If you have changed the batteries (or you have a CS controller installed), then I would recommend putting a new 9V battery directly across the motor power terminals. You can do this with just the spinner removed. This will directly test the motor itself. If the motor is supplying enough torque with the power attached directly to it, then it implies the wiring could be at fault.



If it points to wiring then, from what you've written I would want to eliminate thermal effects. I suggest taking voltage measurements at the PV50 motor while the engine is cold and then again when the engine is hot. From what you said, it sounds like the problem is reproducible, so you should be able to collect some good fault finding data.



If you do need a replacement motor, I know that Kevin Kenward was trying to establish a "support network" for the Arplast PV50, following the company's demise. You may have to check directly with him, but if I recall correctly the motors are "Commercial-of-the-shelf" from a company in Germany.



Best 



Jon

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:01 am Post subject: Arplast Propeller problems

Hi Glen



I run an NSI vp prop so no direct experience. But I do seem to remember 

hearing that the Arplast was prone to corrosion on the single contact 

that runs through the centre of the hub.  It certainly sounds like the 

symptoms the NSI gives when the slip rings have not been cleaned for a 

while.



Good luck



Pete



G-RMAC Classic 109

On 08/03/17 02:52, Glenn Perry wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hello Guys,



 thanks for a great forum!  I have an Arplast VP50 propeller. I have a problem with the pitch change system. When tested on the ground, I can run the pitch from full corse to full fine with no problems. I get normal operation for a while in flight, then the pitch change seems to stop working. When I test the prop after shut down, the pitch change motor does not seem to have enough torque to run from one limit to the other. The motor stalls after very little movement. Any ideas what could be the problem? I have been careful to lubricate the jack screw often, so I dont think that is the problem. Any idea where I could get a new motor? And as a last resort (considering the demise of Arplast), what propellers are approved for G registered Europaâ€™s?



 Thanks, Glenn Perry G-DLCB Classic Mono, 912UL

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:29 am Post subject: Arplast Propeller problems

Glenn

the power for the pitch change motor runs through the piece of piano wire

mounted behind the prop shaft and relies on good contact between that wire and the spinning prop. Check the insulation on the wire which must not short out on the bore of the prop shaft, also check that the wire can move in and out without friction. If it isn't pressing firmly on the contact point in the prop it won't develop full power.



Graham

 

    On Wednesday, 8 March 2017, 2:54, Glenn Perry <gfhperry(at)gmail.com> wrote:



  



 --> Europa-List message posted by: Glenn Perry <gfhperry(at)gmail.com (gfhperry(at)gmail.com)>



Hello Guys, 



thanks for a great forum!  I have an Arplast VP50 propeller. I have a problem with the pitch change system. When tested on the ground, I can run the pitch from full corse to full fine with no problems. I get normal operation for a while in flight, then the pitch change seems to stop working. When I test the prop after shut down, the pitch change motor does not seem to have enough torque to run from one limit to the other. The motor stalls after very little movement. Any ideas what could be the problem? I have been careful to lubricate the jack screw often, so I dont think that is the problem. Any idea where I could get a new motor? And as a last resort (considering the demise of Arplast), what propellers are approved for G registered Europaâ€™s?



Thanks, Glenn Perry G-DLCB Clasnbsp;  --> http://forums.matronics.co="http://wiki.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com;                   -Matt Dralcontribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution<b============

pjeffers(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 5:06 pm Post subject: Arplast Propeller problems

Hi Glen,

The answer to your question depends on the age and/ or mod state of your controller.  So before trying to answer you I need to know the controller you have ie is it Arplast or Smart Avionics ? Indeed is it constant speed unit or a manual in flight adjustable controller. If the former and an Arplast unit what vintage is it. Sorry for so many questions but the answer to these questions will make diagnosis a lot simpler.

Pete Jeffers (Eupopa club LAA inspector)

From: Glenn Perry (gfhperry(at)gmail.com)

Sent: â€Ž08/â€Ž03/â€Ž2017 08:30

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com (europa-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Arplast Propeller problems

--> Europa-List message posted by: Glenn Perry <gfhperry(at)gmail.com>



Hello Guys, 



thanks for a great forum!  I have an Arplast VP50 propeller. I have a problem with the pitch change system. When tested on the ground, I can run the pitch from full corse to full fine with no problems. I get normal operation for a while in flight, then the pitch change seems to stop working. When I test the prop after shut down, the pitch change motor does not seem to have enough torque to run from one limit to the other. The motor stalls after very little movement. Any ideas what could be the problem? I have been careful to lubricate the jack screw often, so I dont think that is the problem. Any idea where I could get a new motor? And as a last resort (considering the demise of Arplast), what propellers are approved for G registered Europaâ€sp;        - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

_            - List Cnbsp;           &nbs====

BobD

Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 112
Location: Sheffield UK

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:26 am Post subject: Re: Arplast Propeller problems

I had a problem with my PV-50 Propeller and CSC-1 Controller yesterday, and whilst researching it on the forum, came across the posts below, which are the nearest to the problem I experienced. My Europa has approx 60 hours on the Prop, but the Prop was purchased many years ago (don't know the exact date but judging from the documentation probably not long after 2000). It has been performing as expected since installation.



After take-off, and switching from TKO to CLM Mode, I noticed that the engine RPM remained near maximum, and looking at the reading on the CSC-1, it was displaying 40%. I tried changing to MAN mode but couldn't increase or decrease the Pitch. I throttled back to reduce the RPM, but this impeded my ability to climb. As it was a short flight, and I could maintain height, albeit at a slower speed than I normally fly, I continued at low level to my destination. Once I landed, (and at reduced RPM i.e 2500) the Pitch Controller functioned again through the full range.



90 minutes later the Prop and Controller functioned through the full range in my pre-flight checks, but exactly the same thing happened following climb out, and all the way back home. I did notice a small change in the CSC-1 Pitch readout the closer I got to home, but can't recall if this was as I throttled back in the approach. Back on terra firma, the Prop again functioned through the full range. 



So it would seem the Pitch will alter at pre-flight RPM (2500-400), but not at 5000+



I didn't have time on my return to inspect the electric motor assembly, but plan to do this in the next day or so. Apart from cleaning and re-greasing the worm assembly, and checking again the full range of movement, has anyone any further suggestions, or potential explanations as to why this could happen ?

_________________
Bob Dawson
Europa XS TG || 912 ULS || G-NHRJ || Dynon Skyview || PilotAware || SmartAss3

Burrilla

Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 185

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:13 am Post subject: Arplast Propeller problems

My first thought would be to check the Brushes for wear, cracks, length and broken wires.



 	  Quote: 	
		   On 7 Jan 2019, at 16:26, BobD <rjd(at)bobdawson.plus.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 I had a problem with my PV-50 Propeller and CSC-1 Controller yesterday, and whilst researching it on the forum, came across the posts below, which are the nearest to the problem I experienced. My Europa has approx 60 hours on the Prop, but the Prop was purchased many years ago (don't know the exact date but judging from the documentation probably not long after 2000). It has been performing as expected since installation.

 

 After take-off, and switching from TKO to CLM Mode, I noticed that the engine RPM remained near maximum, and looking at the reading on the CSC-1, it was displaying 40%. I tried changing to MAN mode but couldn't increase or decrease the Pitch. I throttled back to reduce the RPM, but this impeded my ability to climb. As it was a short flight, and I could maintain height, albeit at a slower speed than I normally fly, I continued at low level to my destination. Once I landed, (and at reduced RPM i.e 2500) the Pitch Controller functioned again through the full range.

 

 90 minutes later the Prop and Controller functioned through the full range in my pre-flight checks, but exactly the same thing happened following climb out, and all the way back home. I did notice a small change in the CSC-1 Pitch readout the closer I got to home, but can't recall if this was as I throttled back in the approach. Back on terra firma, the Prop again functioned through the full range. 

 

 So it would seem the Pitch will alter at pre-flight RPM (2500-400), but not at 5000+

 

 I didn't have time on my return to inspect the electric motor assembly, but plan to do this in the next day or so. Apart from cleaning and re-greasing the worm assembly, and checking again the full range of movement, has anyone any further suggestions, or potential explanations as to why this could happen ?

 

 --------

 Bob Dawson

 Europa XS TG || 912 ULS || G-NHRJ || Dynon Skyview || PilotAware || SmartAss3

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486794#486794

pete(at)lawless.info
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:23 am Post subject: Arplast Propeller problems

Hi



This is hearsay as I have never owned an Arplast but know a couple 

people who have.



I seem to remember that there can be a problem with corrosion at the end 

of the long rod contact that runs though the centre of the hub to the 

propeller.



Good luck.



Pete



G-RMAC Classic #109

On 07/01/2019 17:11, Alan Burrill wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 My first thought would be to check the Brushes for wear, cracks, length and broken wires.



> On 7 Jan 2019, at 16:26, BobD <rjd(at)bobdawson.plus.com> wrote:

>

> 

>

> I had a problem with my PV-50 Propeller and CSC-1 Controller yesterday, and whilst researching it on the forum, came across the posts below, which are the nearest to the problem I experienced. My Europa has approx 60 hours on the Prop, but the Prop was purchased many years ago (don't know the exact date but judging from the documentation probably not long after 2000). It has been performing as expected since installation.

>

> After take-off, and switching from TKO to CLM Mode, I noticed that the engine RPM remained near maximum, and looking at the reading on the CSC-1, it was displaying 40%. I tried changing to MAN mode but couldn't increase or decrease the Pitch. I throttled back to reduce the RPM, but this impeded my ability to climb. As it was a short flight, and I could maintain height, albeit at a slower speed than I normally fly, I continued at low level to my destination. Once I landed, (and at reduced RPM i.e 2500) the Pitch Controller functioned again through the full range.

>

> 90 minutes later the Prop and Controller functioned through the full range in my pre-flight checks, but exactly the same thing happened following climb out, and all the way back home. I did notice a small change in the CSC-1 Pitch readout the closer I got to home, but can't recall if this was as I throttled back in the approach. Back on terra firma, the Prop again functioned through the full range.

>

> So it would seem the Pitch will alter at pre-flight RPM (2500-400), but not at 5000+

>

> I didn't have time on my return to inspect the electric motor assembly, but plan to do this in the next day or so. Apart from cleaning and re-greasing the worm assembly, and checking again the full range of movement, has anyone any further suggestions, or potential explanations as to why this could happen ?

>

> --------

> Bob Dawson

> Europa XS TG || 912 ULS || G-NHRJ || Dynon Skyview || PilotAware || SmartAss3

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486794#486794

>

Matt Dovey

Joined: 13 May 2017
Posts: 48
Location: st albans, england

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Arplast Propeller problems

I have a Arplast  VP50 inflight adjustable. I had the same problem. I changes batteries. Checked voltages, etc. In the end I had to replace the motor and the gearbox. Once replaced no problem.

The operation manual says not to operate without the engine running. The motor is not designed to operate without the airloads on the propeller "The propeller is designed to work whilst running. If the pitch is regularly changed whilst the propeller is

stationary undue stress will be placed on the electrical and mechanical control systems. We do not

recommend the propeller is run from limit to limit unnecessarily as this shortens the motor life e.g.

before flight. DO NOT CYCLE TO PRE-FLIGHT TEST"

peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:40 am Post subject: Arplast Propeller problems

wow.... that really doesn't sound very robust.

-Pete

A239



On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 2:33 PM Matt Dovey <mattdovey(at)hotmail.co.uk (mattdovey(at)hotmail.co.uk)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "Matt Dovey" <mattdovey(at)hotmail.co.uk (mattdovey(at)hotmail.co.uk)>

 

 I have a ArplastÂ  VP50 inflight adjustable. I had the same problem. I changes batteries. Checked voltages, etc. In the end I had to replace the motor and the gearbox. Once replaced no problem.

 The operation manual says not to operate without the engine running. The motor is not designed to operate without the airloads on the propeller "The propeller is designed to work whilst running. If the pitch is regularly changed whilst the propeller is

 stationary undue stress will be placed on the electrical and mechanical control systems. We do not

 recommend the propeller is run from limit to limit unnecessarily as this shortens the motor life e.g.

 before flight. DO NOT CYCLE TO PRE-FLIGHT TEST"

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486803#486803

 

 

 

 

 

 

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John Wighton

Joined: 18 May 2010
Posts: 241

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:58 am Post subject: Re: Arplast Propeller problems

The PV-50 and other electric VP/CS props are designed for light weight and a relatively low hours life before overhaul/replacement.  Most spam cans with CS props use hydraulic fluid driven by a pump - this by definition does not work at all without the engine running to provide hydraulic pressure.



So, is it unreasonable for the PV-50 and Airmaster types to restrict the normal operation to engine running only (except for maintenance and setup)?  Perhaps not.  



Looking at SUMMARY OF PROPELLER DESIGN PROCEDURES AND DATA. VOLUMEs 1, 2 and 3 it is evident how complex the aerodynamics, loading and consequent analysis can be.  



Any propeller system should be able to withstand loads imposed for maintenance and troubleshooting.  If the design is such that accumulated detritus results in component overload - the design is not robust and it is questionable whether it is fully fit-for-use.  



I recommend following the maintenance requirements of the propeller.  If, following the work, problems still exist it may be a case of replacing  suspect items.  



My own experience is limited to Airmaster - the earlier version which l use does require periodic attention to the brushes (these seem to stick and sometimes wear unevenly), prop backplate (contact quality and cleanliness) and the earlier motor is somewhat slow (later ones being much quicker stop to stop).

_________________
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD

pjeffers(at)talktalk.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:22 am Post subject: Arplast Propeller problems

Re Alan's comment about checking brushes etc.  If it were possible to even

see the brushes you may find the answer to your problem. The motor is an

expensive sealed unit and I doubt any repair would be possible.  The

armature itself is only about 1.5 mm in diameter.

Please be aware (as per this forum) that cycling this prop without the

engine running will overload and eventually wreck the pitch change motor.

Due the manufacturers of the prop now being out of business you may

experience difficulty obtaining a replacement motor.  SORRY. Probably best

to enquire via this forum.

Best of luck 

Pete Jeffers



--

davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:58 am Post subject: Arplast Propeller problems

It is perhaps of interest that Woodcomp advise cycling their props through fine/coarse as a pre start check, which suggests that their structure (along with Airmaster's) is significantly more durable than Arplast. 

Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ 

   

 

On 2019-01-08 08:58, John Wighton wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		    	  Quote: 	
		  --> Europa-List message posted by: "John Wighton" <john(at)wighton.net (john(at)wighton.net)>



The PV-50 and other electric VP/CS props are designed for light weight and a relatively low hours life before overhaul/replacement.  Most spam cans with CS props use hydraulic fluid driven by a pump - this by definition does not work at all without the engine running to provide hydraulic pressure.



So, is it unreasonable for the PV-50 and Airmaster types to restrict the normal operation to engine running only (except for maintenance and setup)?  Perhaps not.  



Looking at SUMMARY OF PROPELLER DESIGN PROCEDURES AND DATA. VOLUMEs 1, 2 and 3 it is evident how complex the aerodynamics, loading and consequent analysis can be.  



Any propeller system should be able to withstand loads imposed for maintenance and troubleshooting.  If the design is such that accumulated detritus results in component overload - the design is not robust and it is questionable whether it is fully fit-for-use.  



I recommend following the maintenance requirements of the propeller.  If, following the work, problems still exist it may be a case of replacing  suspect items.  



My own experience is limited to Airmaster - the earlier version which l use does require periodic attention to the brushes (these seem to stick and sometimes wear unevenly), prop backplate (contact quality and cleanliness) and the earlier motor is somewhat slow (later ones being much quicker stop to stop).



--------

John Wighton

Europa XS trigear G-IPOD





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BobD

Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 112
Location: Sheffield UK

Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: Arplast Propeller problems

Thanks for all the suggestions. 



I visited the airfield today to investigate the problem, and in this instance, it was a fairly simple fix. The fastening screw on the stiff wire connection to the rod that passes through the gearbox to the motor had come loose, so it was merely resting on the rod, leading to an intermittent connection. Once I had tightened this back up, the Prop worked fine. Fortunately, it was also the first thing I looked at (which is unusual), so it took me all of ten minutes to resolve the problem (after worrying about it for three days)

_________________
Bob Dawson
Europa XS TG || 912 ULS || G-NHRJ || Dynon Skyview || PilotAware || SmartAss3

Matt Dovey

Joined: 13 May 2017
Posts: 48
Location: st albans, england

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Arplast Propeller problems

Bob glad you fixed it.

I found that the motor and gearbox were easy to get hold of. I contacted the motors manufactures UK distributor. The guy I talked to knew all about the which motor and gearbox to use and that it was used on propellers. The parts were expensive. I don't think you necessarily need to buy the gearbox. The lead time was about six weeks.

With regard to following the manufactures maintenance requirements. There isn't to much information to help you.

I cycle the propeller before flight with the engine running.

BobD

Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 112
Location: Sheffield UK

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:51 am Post subject: Re: Arplast Propeller problems

The euphoria from the solution to my recent problem (loose wire) didn't last long, as the motor on my Propeller has now failed completely   



I wish to replace the existing 6V motor with a 12v one, as this is likely to be more robust, but I have been advised by the LAA that I need to submit a MOD2 to do this. As this may take some time, I wondered if anyone has a old, spare 6V model I could borrow or buy to use in the meantime ?

_________________
Bob Dawson
Europa XS TG || 912 ULS || G-NHRJ || Dynon Skyview || PilotAware || SmartAss3

BobD

Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 112
Location: Sheffield UK

Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2022 8:27 am Post subject: Re: Arplast Propeller problems

The electric motor of my Arplast PV50 motor failed (again !) recently. In my experience, it would seem to have a life of about 250 hrs between failures. From the research I did last time this happened, it would seem a 12V model is available, but perceived wisdom is that this does not have the torque available from the 6V model, and therefore does not have the necessary power to rotate the blades. Maybe this explains the relatively short life of the standard 2224U006SR model. I tried to source a new motor from the UK distributor www.ems-limited.co.uk Although they were very helpful, the best delivery they could offer was 9 weeks.



Fortunately, courtesy of Italianjon of this parish, I was pointed in the direction of a German Company who had them in stock, with a immediate delivery. Even from Europa, the new motor arrived in the UK in less than 14 days. For anyone looking for a replacement motor, I would recommend this company. www.fechtner-modellbau.de

_________________
Bob Dawson
Europa XS TG || 912 ULS || G-NHRJ || Dynon Skyview || PilotAware || SmartAss3

BobD

Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 112
Location: Sheffield UK

Posted: Tue May 17, 2022 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: Arplast Propeller problems

Further to my previous post concerning the Arplast PV50 Propeller and Controller. I was advised to contact Mark Burton of Smart Avionics to learn of a small hardware alteration that had been found to extend the life of the Electric Motor. With his permission, I have copied his response below.



"What I have recommended in the past is to add a 2 ohm resistor into the

wire from the the controller to the PV-50 motor to limit the current

surge when the controller starts the motor moving which should reduce

the chance of the motor burning out. The easiest place to install the

resistor is near the bracket on the back of the gearbox as you show in

the photo. Here's a link to a suitable resistor.



https://uk.farnell.com/arcol/hs10-2r-f/resistor-wirewound-2r-1-solder/dp/2678652?st=hs10



I like this type of resistor as it is very sturdy and the unlikely to

fail. A lot of resistors have relatively feeble wires. Mounting is not

critical at all.



It's worth noting that Arplast themselves recommended fitting a

resistor after they became aware that I was advocating doing that."

_________________
Bob Dawson
Europa XS TG || 912 ULS || G-NHRJ || Dynon Skyview || PilotAware || SmartAss3

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