Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Cooling impact of using firesleeve on oil lines

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Cooling impact of using firesleeve on oil lines

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

Davidcripps

Joined: 09 Aug 2021
Posts: 40

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2023 4:04 am Post subject: Cooling impact of using firesleeve on oil lines

As part of recent work replacing all oil and fuel lines in my Europa Classic Trigear 912UL, I added firesleeve to both the new fuel and oil lines. In addition I have added heat-reflective silver foil tube to the oil lines. This was done since some significant deterioration of the exterior of the previously uninsulated/unsleeved oil lines had been seen where the oil lines passed rather close to parts of the exhaust (unavoidable in the tight confines of a Classic!)



While carrying out this work I also tried to deal with the previously seen 'high oil temperature in climb issue', by silicone sealing the oil cooler to the back of the port radiator, in order to ensure that more air went through the oil cooler and didn't leak around it.



If anything, high oil temperatures in the climb have got worse since all these changes, requiring even more careful climb management, using multiple steps. It's manageable, but a bit of a pain, and that's in the not-too-hot UK climate. Oil temperatures stabilise around 115C once settled in the cruise, and water temps are completely fine, in both climb and cruise.



Has the expected oil-cooling benefit of silicone sealing the oil cooler to the radiator been completely negated by the added insulation effect of the firesleeve/silver foil tube on the oil lines? I'm wondering how much oil cooling depends on radiation from the oil lines themselves? Does anyone have any experiences of the impact on temps of adding firesleeve to oil lines?



My next planned step is to try to make a better seal of the port radiator to the cowl (not quite sure how to do this) and possibly add spacers to the bottom edge of the lower cowl to increase exit area. From reading the many useful postings on cooling issues, these would seem to help, but should I take off the oil hose firesleeve instead/as well? I would welcome any thoughts, ideas and comments!

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2023 11:49 am Post subject: Cooling impact of using firesleeve on oil lines

Hi David,I have the Monowheel Classic with the Rotax 912ULS 100hp. This produces 8% more heat as compared to the Rotax 912UL. Consequently I moved the oil cooler from behind the port radiator to underneath the gearbox/spinner. I created an inlet in the bottom cowl, without creating a â€˜spitfire noseâ€™ inlet, to allow air to flow freely through the cooler and exit out the bottom of the cowl next to the exhaust. I also have the Rotax shroud over the cylinders and created an inlet either side of the spinner, one for air to flow under the shroud, the other for cabin air. With this arrangement I do not have any problems with cooling. I would not think any firesleeve/silver foil tubing would make a difference to the temperature. The piggy back oil coolant on port radiator is not very effective, as the air exit flow path is not good. I will send you  a photo to clarify what I have done. 

Cheers, Tim 

Sent from my iPadTim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street, 

Fendalton, 

Christchurch, 8052

New Zealand.

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz 

021 0640221

 	  Quote: 	
		  On 1/09/2023, at 12:12 AM, Davidcripps <dpc(at)knightonweb.com> wrote:



ï»¿--> Europa-List message posted by: "Davidcripps" <dpc(at)knightonweb.com>



As part of recent work replacing all oil and fuel lines in my Europa Classic Trigear 912UL, I added firesleeve to both the new fuel and oil lines. In addition I have added heat-reflective silver foil tube to the oil lines. This was done since some significant deterioration of the exterior of the previously uninsulated/unsleeved oil lines had been seen where the oil lines passed rather close to parts of the exhaust (unavoidable in the tight confines of a Classic!)



While carrying out this work I also tried to deal with the previously seen 'high oil temperature in climb issue', by silicone sealing the oil cooler to the back of the port radiator, in order to ensure that more air went through the oil cooler and didn't leak around it.



If anything, high oil temperatures in the climb have got worse since all these changes, requiring even more careful climb management, using multiple steps. It's manageable, but a bit of a pain, and that's in the not-too-hot UK climate. Oil temperatures stabilise around 115C once settled in the cruise, and water temps are completely fine, in both climb and cruise.



Has the expected oil-cooling benefit of silicone sealing the oil cooler to the radiator been completely negated by the added insulation effect of the firesleeve/silver foil tube on the oil lines? I'm wondering how much oil cooling depends on radiation from the oil lines themselves? Does anyone have any experiences of the impact on temps of adding firesleeve to oil lines?



My next planned step is to try to make a better seal of the port radiator to the cowl (not quite sure how to do this) and possibly add spacers to the bottom edge of the lower cowl to increase exit area. From reading the many useful postings on cooling issues, these would seem to help, but should I take off the oil hose firesleeve instead/as well? I would welcome any thoughts, ideas and comments!





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=511385#511385

phillik747

Joined: 04 Apr 2012
Posts: 73
Location: Birminham, AL USA

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2023 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: Cooling impact of using firesleeve on oil lines

Hello David,



  The first few flights of my Uncle's Europa Classic, flown by Ivan himself, had oil cooling issues.  The first change was moving it to its own inlet under the spinner which gave it a little smile.  The more recent change was to redo the bottom cowl.  Somewhat how Tim describes his.  For hot Southern California days, this help a lot in the climbing phase of flight. 



Here is an image of my Uncles mod. 

http://europaowners.org/gallery2/v/phillik747/europaphotos/p1000476.jpg.html

_________________
Kyle
Europa Tri-gear (under construction)

Davidcripps

Joined: 09 Aug 2021
Posts: 40

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2023 1:36 pm Post subject: Cooling impact of using firesleeve on oil lines

Thank you very much for the feedback and picture. Giving the oil cooler its own location makes a lot of sense but thatâ€™s quite a major cowl mod. For those of us in the U.K. it would mean going through a Mod application (which some have done). 



As a quicker attempt to fix this problem I managed to source and fit a 16 row oil cooler to replace the 10 row one that is fitted as standard. Required a few small mods to the brackets on the port radiator to which it is attached and it only just fits under the top cowl and with its bottom edge just clear of the exhaust stub by about 10mm.



However it has transformed the oil cooling such that we can now climb at max weight direct to 5000â€™ with no overheating issues/reaching the red line at all (although in fairness it has also been slightly cooler weather). It seems to settle at 120deg C max at full power in a 75kt climb. Once established in the cruise oil temps are quickly dropping back to 90-100deg C. Also it hasnâ€™t affected the CHT (I had thought we might be moving the problem there since now much more of the port radiator is â€˜coveredâ€™ by the oil cooler).



So I have left the firesleeve on the oil hoses in place as we seem to have this oil temp issue under control for now. 



Many thanks for your input and good luck with your build.



Best regards 



David

 	  Quote: 	
		   On 26 Sep 2023, at 04:01, phillik747 <helperpsp(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 ï»¿

 

 Hello David,

 

  The first few flights of my Uncle's Europa Classic, flown by Ivan himself, had oil cooling issues.  The first change was moving it to its own inlet under the spinner which gave it a little smile.  The more recent change was to redo the bottom cowl.  Somewhat how Tim describes his.  For hot Southern California days, this help a lot in the climbing phase of flight. 

 

 Here is an image of my Uncles mod. 

 http://europaowners.org/gallery2/v/phillik747/europaphotos/p1000476.jpg.html

 

 --------

 Kyle

 Europa Tri-gear (under construction)

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=511506#511506

Davidcripps

Joined: 09 Aug 2021
Posts: 40

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:26 am Post subject: Re: Cooling impact of using firesleeve on oil lines

Here are a couple of photos of the new 16-row Mocal oil cooler installed on the back of the port radiator. Works a treat! PS. Glass wrap around exhaust has now been removed. It was only there as a 'back-up' as new oil cooler is much closer to the exhaust stub than before, but this hasn't seemed to cause any problems with the oil cooling.

New oil cooler mounted and installed.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

484.17 KB

Viewed:

4049 Time(s)

New oil cooler mounted and installed.jpg

Original oil cooler mounted on radiator.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

405.5 KB

Viewed:

4049 Time(s)

Original oil cooler mounted on radiator.jpg

New oil cooler mounted on radiator.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

1.67 MB

Viewed:

4049 Time(s)

New oil cooler side view.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

404.7 KB

Viewed:

4049 Time(s)

Monoman

Joined: 01 Nov 2020
Posts: 22

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 8:18 am Post subject: Cooling impact of using firesleeve on oil lines

Hello David

I haven't been following this but looking at what you have done I am pleased

that it worked for you. I am unsure what engine you have but when I changed

mine from  80HP to 100 HP as I half expected I immediately encountered oil

cooling problems so fitted a chin inlet and located a larger oil cooler

there removing the one behind the port radiator. This helped but did not

solve the problem. At this point I fitted the 16 row as you have (in

addition to the chin radiator), this solved the oil issue but promptly gave

me water temp problems!

I have now changed the 16 row for an 8 row which has still cured the oil

issue and although the water temp issue is better it is not entirely cured.

I am now considering whether a re- core of the water radiators might help.

Just as a matter of interest I have not fitted firesleeve to any of my oil

lines thinking that this would result in the maximum radiated heat.



--

Davidcripps

Joined: 09 Aug 2021
Posts: 40

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 9:36 am Post subject: Cooling impact of using firesleeve on oil lines

Interesting, Mike. 

  

Mine is a Europa Classic with the 80hp 912. It does have the very small cooling intakes. 

  

Since the oil cooler sits behind the port radiator, I was concerned that the extra ‘blanking’ created by the larger cooler might prove to be a problem with the water cooling but  that doesn’t appear to have happened. Before changing the oil cooler, I did try carefully straightening out all the bent and damaged fins on the radiator and cleaning out the bugs in the hope that that might have helped improve the airflow through the radiator  and on into the oil cooler. Disappointingly it didn’t seem to help at all, and my initial impression was that my radiator cleaning attempts may have made matters worse! Because of that, I did start down the road of looking at replacing the port radiator or  getting it re-cored to improve airflow – but I found both options would have been very expensive. I was very glad that none of that seemed to be necessary when the bigger oil cooler fixed the oil temp problem straight away and without seeming to create any  noticeable rise in the water temps (which had never been a problem anyway). 

  

It seems to me that my ‘winter maintenance’ addition of the fire-sleeve to the oil lines was really the only change I had made from last year’s configuration that might have contributed  to the oil temp problem seen this year, so removing the sleeves was to have been my next course of action. However, now that the oil temps have come down so much more than expected, I’m planning to leave the sleeves in place so will probably never know what  they did or didn’t do to the oil temps! 

  

I wonder if you really need any kind of oil cooler on the back of your radiator now that you have an oil cooler in its own, much better chin location? Could you try removing the  8-row one entirely from the radiator and seeing if you’d still have OK oil temps just using your large chin cooler? 

  

The other wisdom I have picked up from many other useful contributors to this whole issue is the importance of air exit area, as well as to ensuring that all incoming air goes through  the radiators and not round their edges. When we were in the midst of our major oil overheating problems, and away from base on a very hot day, we managed to get by through packing washers under the bottom edge of the lower cowl to increase air exit area,  as well as using foil tape to seal the edges of the radiators to the cowl. That made just enough of a difference to keep us going and get us home! 

  

If you need a 10-row oil cooler to play with then let me know, as mine is now redundant! 

  

David 

G-BWJH 

  

   

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Mike <mike(at)nyumba.co.uk>

 Date: Wednesday, 8 November 2023 at 16:21

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: RE: Re: Cooling impact of using firesleeve on oil lines 

  

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike" <mike(at)nyumba.co.uk>

 

 Hello David

 I haven't been following this but looking at what you have done I am pleased

 that it worked for you. I am unsure what engine you have but when I changed

 mine from  80HP to 100 HP as I half expected I immediately encountered oil

 cooling problems so fitted a chin inlet and located a larger oil cooler

 there removing the one behind the port radiator. This helped but did not

 solve the problem. At this point I fitted the 16 row as you have (in

 addition to the chin radiator), this solved the oil issue but promptly gave

 me water temp problems!

 I have now changed the 16 row for an 8 row which has still cured the oil

 issue and although the water temp issue is better it is not entirely cured.

 I am now considering whether a re- core of the water radiators might help.

 Just as a matter of interest I have not fitted firesleeve to any of my oil

 lines thinking that this would result in the maximum radiated heat.

 

 --

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:40 pm Post subject: Cooling impact of using firesleeve on oil lines

Hi David,I take it you have the cylinder shoud which directs air from a front inlet, over the cylinders and exit out the exhaust opening? Rotax shoud if required.

Cheers, Tim 



Sent from my iPhone



Tim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street

Fendalton 

CHRISTCHURCH 8052

New Zealand

Mob 0210640221

Home 033515166

[quote]On 9/11/2023, at 06:43, dpc(at)knightonweb.com wrote:



ï»¿    (at)font-face { font-family: "Cambria Math"; } (at)font-face { font-family: Calibri; } p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; } a:link, span.MsoHyperlink { color: blue; text-decoration: underline; } span.EmailStyle19 { font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext; } .MsoChpDefault { font-size: 10pt; } (at)page WordSection1 { size: 612pt 792pt; margin: 72pt; } div.WordSection1 { page: WordSection1; }    

Interesting, Mike. 

  

Mine is a Europa Classic with the 80hp 912. It does have the very small cooling intakes. 

  

Since the oil cooler sits behind the port radiator, I was concerned that the extra â€˜blankingâ€™ created by the larger cooler might prove to be a problem with the water cooling but  that doesnâ€™t appear to have happened. Before changing the oil cooler, I did try carefully straightening out all the bent and damaged fins on the radiator and cleaning out the bugs in the hope that that might have helped improve the airflow through the radiator  and on into the oil cooler. Disappointingly it didnâ€™t seem to help at all, and my initial impression was that my radiator cleaning attempts may have made matters worse! Because of that, I did start down the road of looking at replacing the port radiator or  getting it re-cored to improve airflow â€“ but I found both options would have been very expensive. I was very glad that none of that seemed to be necessary when the bigger oil cooler fixed the oil temp problem straight away and without seeming to create any  noticeable rise in the water temps (which had never been a problem anyway). 

  

It seems to me that my â€˜winter maintenanceâ€™ addition of the fire-sleeve to the oil lines was really the only change I had made from last yearâ€™s configuration that might have contributed  to the oil temp problem seen this year, so removing the sleeves was to have been my next course of action. However, now that the oil temps have come down so much more than expected, Iâ€™m planning to leave the sleeves in place so will probably never know what  they did or didnâ€™t do to the oil temps! 

  

I wonder if you really need any kind of oil cooler on the back of your radiator now that you have an oil cooler in its own, much better chin location? Could you try removing the  8-row one entirely from the radiator and seeing if youâ€™d still have OK oil temps just using your large chin cooler? 

  

The other wisdom I have picked up from many other useful contributors to this whole issue is the importance of air exit area, as well as to ensuring that all incoming air goes through  the radiators and not round their edges. When we were in the midst of our major oil overheating problems, and away from base on a very hot day, we managed to get by through packing washers under the bottom edge of the lower cowl to increase air exit area,  as well as using foil tape to seal the edges of the radiators to the cowl. That made just enough of a difference to keep us going and get us home! 

  

If you need a 10-row oil cooler to play with then let me know, as mine is now redundant! 

  

David 

G-BWJH 

  

   

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Mike <mike(at)nyumba.co.uk>

 Date: Wednesday, 8 November 2023 at 16:21

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: RE: Re: Cooling impact of using firesleeve on oil lines 

  

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike" <mike(at)nyumba.co.uk>

 

 Hello David

 I haven't been following this but looking at what you have done I am pleased

 that it worked for you. I am unsure what engine you have but when I changed

 mine from  80HP to 100 HP as I half expected I immediately encountered oil

 cooling problems so fitted a chin inlet and located a larger oil cooler

 there removing the one behind the port radiator. This helped but did not

 solve the problem. At this point I fitted the 16 row as you have (in

 addition to the chin radiator), this solved the oil issue but promptly gave

 me water temp problems!

 I have now changed the 16 row for an 8 row which has still cured the oil

 issue and although the water temp issue is better it is not entirely cured.

 I am now considering whether a re- core of the water radiators might help.

 Just as a matter of interest I have not fitted firesleeve to any of my oil

 lines thinking that this would result in the maximum radiated heat.

 

 --

Davidcripps

Joined: 09 Aug 2021
Posts: 40

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 2:09 pm Post subject: Cooling impact of using firesleeve on oil lines

Tim

No I donâ€™t have a shroud around the cylinders and, as far as I know, the aircraft has never had one. 

I have never had high CHTs, and still donâ€™t even after the increase in oil cooler size, so I donâ€™t think I have a cylinder cooling problem at all. Was the shroud a standard item on the original Europa Classic with a 912?

Many thanks 

David



[quote]On 8 Nov 2023, at 20:43, Tim Ward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz> wrote:



ï»¿Hi David,I take it you have the cylinder shoud which directs air from a front inlet, over the cylinders and exit out the exhaust opening? Rotax shoud if required.

Cheers, Tim 



Sent from my iPhone



Tim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street

Fendalton 

CHRISTCHURCH 8052

New Zealand

Mob 0210640221

Home 033515166

[quote]On 9/11/2023, at 06:43, dpc(at)knightonweb.com wrote:



ï»¿    (at)font-face { font-family: "Cambria Math"; } (at)font-face { font-family: Calibri; } p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; } a:link, span.MsoHyperlink { color: blue; text-decoration: underline; } span.EmailStyle19 { font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext; } .MsoChpDefault { font-size: 10pt; } (at)page WordSection1 { size: 612pt 792pt; margin: 72pt; } div.WordSection1 { page: WordSection1; }    

Interesting, Mike. 

  

Mine is a Europa Classic with the 80hp 912. It does have the very small cooling intakes. 

  

Since the oil cooler sits behind the port radiator, I was concerned that the extra â€˜blankingâ€™ created by the larger cooler might prove to be a problem with the water cooling but  that doesnâ€™t appear to have happened. Before changing the oil cooler, I did try carefully straightening out all the bent and damaged fins on the radiator and cleaning out the bugs in the hope that that might have helped improve the airflow through the radiator  and on into the oil cooler. Disappointingly it didnâ€™t seem to help at all, and my initial impression was that my radiator cleaning attempts may have made matters worse! Because of that, I did start down the road of looking at replacing the port radiator or  getting it re-cored to improve airflow â€“ but I found both options would have been very expensive. I was very glad that none of that seemed to be necessary when the bigger oil cooler fixed the oil temp problem straight away and without seeming to create any  noticeable rise in the water temps (which had never been a problem anyway). 

  

It seems to me that my â€˜winter maintenanceâ€™ addition of the fire-sleeve to the oil lines was really the only change I had made from last yearâ€™s configuration that might have contributed  to the oil temp problem seen this year, so removing the sleeves was to have been my next course of action. However, now that the oil temps have come down so much more than expected, Iâ€™m planning to leave the sleeves in place so will probably never know what  they did or didnâ€™t do to the oil temps! 

  

I wonder if you really need any kind of oil cooler on the back of your radiator now that you have an oil cooler in its own, much better chin location? Could you try removing the  8-row one entirely from the radiator and seeing if youâ€™d still have OK oil temps just using your large chin cooler? 

  

The other wisdom I have picked up from many other useful contributors to this whole issue is the importance of air exit area, as well as to ensuring that all incoming air goes through  the radiators and not round their edges. When we were in the midst of our major oil overheating problems, and away from base on a very hot day, we managed to get by through packing washers under the bottom edge of the lower cowl to increase air exit area,  as well as using foil tape to seal the edges of the radiators to the cowl. That made just enough of a difference to keep us going and get us home! 

  

If you need a 10-row oil cooler to play with then let me know, as mine is now redundant! 

  

David 

G-BWJH 

  

   

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Mike <mike(at)nyumba.co.uk>

 Date: Wednesday, 8 November 2023 at 16:21

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: RE: Re: Cooling impact of using firesleeve on oil lines 

  

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike" <mike(at)nyumba.co.uk>

 

 Hello David

 I haven't been following this but looking at what you have done I am pleased

 that it worked for you. I am unsure what engine you have but when I changed

 mine from  80HP to 100 HP as I half expected I immediately encountered oil

 cooling problems so fitted a chin inlet and located a larger oil cooler

 there removing the one behind the port radiator. This helped but did not

 solve the problem. At this point I fitted the 16 row as you have (in

 addition to the chin radiator), this solved the oil issue but promptly gave

 me water temp problems!

 I have now changed the 16 row for an 8 row which has still cured the oil

 issue and although the water temp issue is better it is not entirely cured.

 I am now considering whether a re- core of the water radiators might help.

 Just as a matter of interest I have not fitted firesleeve to any of my oil

 lines thinking that this would result in the maximum radiated heat.

 

 --

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 2:45 pm Post subject: Cooling impact of using firesleeve on oil lines

David,The shroud was recommended for the 912ULS 100hp by Rotax due to the  8% increase in heat produced, compared to the 80hp. A quick solution when converting from the 80hp to the 100hp, I believe. Not sure if they are still used today, as cooling systems have changed.

Cheers, Tim 



Sent from my iPadTim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street, 

Fendalton, 

Christchurch, 8052

New Zealand.

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz 

021 0640221

[quote]On 9/11/2023, at 11:15 AM, Dpc <dpc(at)knightonweb.com> wrote:



ï»¿

Tim

No I donâ€™t have a shroud around the cylinders and, as far as I know, the aircraft has never had one. 

I have never had high CHTs, and still donâ€™t even after the increase in oil cooler size, so I donâ€™t think I have a cylinder cooling problem at all. Was the shroud a standard item on the original Europa Classic with a 912?

Many thanks 

David



[quote]On 8 Nov 2023, at 20:43, Tim Ward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz> wrote:



ï»¿Hi David,I take it you have the cylinder shoud which directs air from a front inlet, over the cylinders and exit out the exhaust opening? Rotax shoud if required.

Cheers, Tim 



Sent from my iPhone



Tim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street

Fendalton 

CHRISTCHURCH 8052

New Zealand

Mob 0210640221

Home 033515166

[quote]On 9/11/2023, at 06:43, dpc(at)knightonweb.com wrote:



ï»¿    (at)font-face { font-family: "Cambria Math"; } (at)font-face { font-family: Calibri; } p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; } a:link, span.MsoHyperlink { color: blue; text-decoration: underline; } span.EmailStyle19 { font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext; } .MsoChpDefault { font-size: 10pt; } (at)page WordSection1 { size: 612pt 792pt; margin: 72pt; } div.WordSection1 { page: WordSection1; }    

Interesting, Mike. 

  

Mine is a Europa Classic with the 80hp 912. It does have the very small cooling intakes. 

  

Since the oil cooler sits behind the port radiator, I was concerned that the extra â€˜blankingâ€™ created by the larger cooler might prove to be a problem with the water cooling but  that doesnâ€™t appear to have happened. Before changing the oil cooler, I did try carefully straightening out all the bent and damaged fins on the radiator and cleaning out the bugs in the hope that that might have helped improve the airflow through the radiator  and on into the oil cooler. Disappointingly it didnâ€™t seem to help at all, and my initial impression was that my radiator cleaning attempts may have made matters worse! Because of that, I did start down the road of looking at replacing the port radiator or  getting it re-cored to improve airflow â€“ but I found both options would have been very expensive. I was very glad that none of that seemed to be necessary when the bigger oil cooler fixed the oil temp problem straight away and without seeming to create any  noticeable rise in the water temps (which had never been a problem anyway). 

  

It seems to me that my â€˜winter maintenanceâ€™ addition of the fire-sleeve to the oil lines was really the only change I had made from last yearâ€™s configuration that might have contributed  to the oil temp problem seen this year, so removing the sleeves was to have been my next course of action. However, now that the oil temps have come down so much more than expected, Iâ€™m planning to leave the sleeves in place so will probably never know what  they did or didnâ€™t do to the oil temps! 

  

I wonder if you really need any kind of oil cooler on the back of your radiator now that you have an oil cooler in its own, much better chin location? Could you try removing the  8-row one entirely from the radiator and seeing if youâ€™d still have OK oil temps just using your large chin cooler? 

  

The other wisdom I have picked up from many other useful contributors to this whole issue is the importance of air exit area, as well as to ensuring that all incoming air goes through  the radiators and not round their edges. When we were in the midst of our major oil overheating problems, and away from base on a very hot day, we managed to get by through packing washers under the bottom edge of the lower cowl to increase air exit area,  as well as using foil tape to seal the edges of the radiators to the cowl. That made just enough of a difference to keep us going and get us home! 

  

If you need a 10-row oil cooler to play with then let me know, as mine is now redundant! 

  

David 

G-BWJH 

  

   

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Mike <mike(at)nyumba.co.uk>

 Date: Wednesday, 8 November 2023 at 16:21

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: RE: Re: Cooling impact of using firesleeve on oil lines 

  

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike" <mike(at)nyumba.co.uk>

 

 Hello David

 I haven't been following this but looking at what you have done I am pleased

 that it worked for you. I am unsure what engine you have but when I changed

 mine from  80HP to 100 HP as I half expected I immediately encountered oil

 cooling problems so fitted a chin inlet and located a larger oil cooler

 there removing the one behind the port radiator. This helped but did not

 solve the problem. At this point I fitted the 16 row as you have (in

 addition to the chin radiator), this solved the oil issue but promptly gave

 me water temp problems!

 I have now changed the 16 row for an 8 row which has still cured the oil

 issue and although the water temp issue is better it is not entirely cured.

 I am now considering whether a re- core of the water radiators might help.

 Just as a matter of interest I have not fitted firesleeve to any of my oil

 lines thinking that this would result in the maximum radiated heat.

 

 --

Davidcripps

Joined: 09 Aug 2021
Posts: 40

Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2023 3:34 pm Post subject: Cooling impact of using firesleeve on oil lines

Thanks for the explanation of the origins of the shroud. I have the 80hp 912 so that would explain why I have no shroud and yet no CHT issues I think. Itâ€™d be nice to have a 912S but I find the performance with the 80hp just fine in most situations.

All the best

David 



[quote]On 8 Nov 2023, at 22:47, timward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz> wrote:



ï»¿David,The shroud was recommended for the 912ULS 100hp by Rotax due to the  8% increase in heat produced, compared to the 80hp. A quick solution when converting from the 80hp to the 100hp, I believe. Not sure if they are still used today, as cooling systems have changed.

Cheers, Tim 



Sent from my iPadTim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street, 

Fendalton, 

Christchurch, 8052

New Zealand.

ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz 

021 0640221

[quote]On 9/11/2023, at 11:15 AM, Dpc <dpc(at)knightonweb.com> wrote:



ï»¿

Tim

No I donâ€™t have a shroud around the cylinders and, as far as I know, the aircraft has never had one. 

I have never had high CHTs, and still donâ€™t even after the increase in oil cooler size, so I donâ€™t think I have a cylinder cooling problem at all. Was the shroud a standard item on the original Europa Classic with a 912?

Many thanks 

David



[quote]On 8 Nov 2023, at 20:43, Tim Ward <ward.t(at)xtra.co.nz> wrote:



ï»¿Hi David,I take it you have the cylinder shoud which directs air from a front inlet, over the cylinders and exit out the exhaust opening? Rotax shoud if required.

Cheers, Tim 



Sent from my iPhone



Tim Ward

12 Waiwetu Street

Fendalton 

CHRISTCHURCH 8052

New Zealand

Mob 0210640221

Home 033515166

[quote]On 9/11/2023, at 06:43, dpc(at)knightonweb.com wrote:



ï»¿    (at)font-face { font-family: "Cambria Math"; } (at)font-face { font-family: Calibri; } p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0cm; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; } a:link, span.MsoHyperlink { color: blue; text-decoration: underline; } span.EmailStyle19 { font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext; } .MsoChpDefault { font-size: 10pt; } (at)page WordSection1 { size: 612pt 792pt; margin: 72pt; } div.WordSection1 { page: WordSection1; }    

Interesting, Mike. 

  

Mine is a Europa Classic with the 80hp 912. It does have the very small cooling intakes. 

  

Since the oil cooler sits behind the port radiator, I was concerned that the extra â€˜blankingâ€™ created by the larger cooler might prove to be a problem with the water cooling but  that doesnâ€™t appear to have happened. Before changing the oil cooler, I did try carefully straightening out all the bent and damaged fins on the radiator and cleaning out the bugs in the hope that that might have helped improve the airflow through the radiator  and on into the oil cooler. Disappointingly it didnâ€™t seem to help at all, and my initial impression was that my radiator cleaning attempts may have made matters worse! Because of that, I did start down the road of looking at replacing the port radiator or  getting it re-cored to improve airflow â€“ but I found both options would have been very expensive. I was very glad that none of that seemed to be necessary when the bigger oil cooler fixed the oil temp problem straight away and without seeming to create any  noticeable rise in the water temps (which had never been a problem anyway). 

  

It seems to me that my â€˜winter maintenanceâ€™ addition of the fire-sleeve to the oil lines was really the only change I had made from last yearâ€™s configuration that might have contributed  to the oil temp problem seen this year, so removing the sleeves was to have been my next course of action. However, now that the oil temps have come down so much more than expected, Iâ€™m planning to leave the sleeves in place so will probably never know what  they did or didnâ€™t do to the oil temps! 

  

I wonder if you really need any kind of oil cooler on the back of your radiator now that you have an oil cooler in its own, much better chin location? Could you try removing the  8-row one entirely from the radiator and seeing if youâ€™d still have OK oil temps just using your large chin cooler? 

  

The other wisdom I have picked up from many other useful contributors to this whole issue is the importance of air exit area, as well as to ensuring that all incoming air goes through  the radiators and not round their edges. When we were in the midst of our major oil overheating problems, and away from base on a very hot day, we managed to get by through packing washers under the bottom edge of the lower cowl to increase air exit area,  as well as using foil tape to seal the edges of the radiators to the cowl. That made just enough of a difference to keep us going and get us home! 

  

If you need a 10-row oil cooler to play with then let me know, as mine is now redundant! 

  

David 

G-BWJH 

  

   

From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> on behalf of Mike <mike(at)nyumba.co.uk>

 Date: Wednesday, 8 November 2023 at 16:21

 To: europa-list(at)matronics.com <europa-list(at)matronics.com>

 Subject: RE: Re: Cooling impact of using firesleeve on oil lines 

  

--> Europa-List message posted by: "Mike" <mike(at)nyumba.co.uk>

 

 Hello David

 I haven't been following this but looking at what you have done I am pleased

 that it worked for you. I am unsure what engine you have but when I changed

 mine from  80HP to 100 HP as I half expected I immediately encountered oil

 cooling problems so fitted a chin inlet and located a larger oil cooler

 there removing the one behind the port radiator. This helped but did not

 solve the problem. At this point I fitted the 16 row as you have (in

 addition to the chin radiator), this solved the oil issue but promptly gave

 me water temp problems!

 I have now changed the 16 row for an 8 row which has still cured the oil

 issue and although the water temp issue is better it is not entirely cured.

 I am now considering whether a re- core of the water radiators might help.

 Just as a matter of interest I have not fitted firesleeve to any of my oil

 lines thinking that this would result in the maximum radiated heat.

 

 --

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Europa-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum