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Ceengland
Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 391
Location: MS
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 Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2023 6:29 am Post subject: Power, signal, and Coax - How should they be bundled? |
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Are you using the Ray Allen trim servos? If so, it's worth noting that there are thousands of them flying with power & signal wires bundled in the same cable, as spec'd & sold by the company. From the installation guide:
[img]cid:ii_lp2pseyd0[/img]
On Fri, Nov 17, 2023 at 8:05 AM wsimpso1 <wsimpso1(at)comcast.net (wsimpso1(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "wsimpso1" <wsimpso1(at)comcast.net (wsimpso1(at)comcast.net)>
Thanks for the knowledgeable responses.
It looks like nothing I have in the back end is terribly sensitive, and the thinking around the topic is mostly fuss over nothing. So, in the aft end of the fuselage, it is looking like this:
Starboard side will get all three antenna cables, 3 sets of 3 sense wires from the trim motors, and both the three wire shielded cable and RJ11 for the ELT;
Port side will get 3 pairs of trim motor power wires, and the shielded two wire LED power cable.
Further forward is more up in the air, but it is looking like we will add fat wires and any noisy stuff on port side while starboard will get data, DYNON system cable, etc. Centerline is already tied up with flight controls, fuel lines, and air handling.
It is also looking like I will be making twisted pairs for the trim motor power and twisted triplets for trim sensing, This more for neatness and keeping things straight than for noise control. Onward to system numbering etc.
Thanks again.
Billski
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512317#512317
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wsimpso1
Joined: 04 Nov 2018
Posts: 33
Location: Saline MI
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:01 am Post subject: Re: Power, signal, and Coax - How should they be bundled? |
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Charlie,
Not Menzimer, using Actuonix P-16P for elevators, P-16L for rudder and aileron. As light as MAC, fits in my stabilizers, less expensive, rated for dust and condensation, right speed, and enough back drive resistance to hold settings. I get the off-axis pushrod loads off the servo with a little bellcrank, and put adjustable limit switches on the bellcrank after I know where the limits should be. Using the P version for elevators for position data - calcs say I may need to fly two trim tab. Flight test will let me know if I can omit the motor and lock that side, then fly the other or if I have to run them both.
Thanks for the feedback on cable. After searching I just bought separate wires in same color scheme and will twist them into sets. Stein had not popped in my search, but I just looked at their site and there it is.
Billski
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werner schneider
Joined: 24 May 2021
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2023 8:22 am Post subject: Power, signal, and Coax - How should they be bundled? |
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Billski,
which gear ratio did you use and for what plane type?
Cheers Werner
On 18.11.2023 17:01, wsimpso1 wrote:
| Quote: |
Charlie,
Not Menzimer, using Actuonix P-16P for elevators, P-16L for rudder and aileron. As light as MAC, fits in my stabilizers, less expensive, rated for dust and condensation, right speed, and enough back drive resistance to hold settings. I get the off-axis pushrod loads off the servo with a little bellcrank, and put adjustable limit switches on the bellcrank after I know where the limits should be. Using the P version for elevators for position data - calcs say I may need to fly two trim tab. Flight test will let me know if I can omit the motor and lock that side, then fly the other or if I have to run them both.
Thanks for the feedback on cable. After searching I just bought separate wires in same color scheme and will twist them into sets. Stein had not popped in my search, but I just looked at their site and there it is.
Billski
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512404#512404
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Ceengland
Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 391
Location: MS
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2023 9:45 am Post subject: Power, signal, and Coax - How should they be bundled? |
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Looks good. I suspect that the same point that I was trying to make would still apply; There's no worry about running power & signal in the same bundle.
On Sat, Nov 18, 2023 at 10:04 AM wsimpso1 <wsimpso1(at)comcast.net (wsimpso1(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "wsimpso1" <wsimpso1(at)comcast.net (wsimpso1(at)comcast.net)>
Charlie,
Not Menzimer, using Actuonix P-16P for elevators, P-16L for rudder and aileron. As light as MAC, fits in my stabilizers, less expensive, rated for dust and condensation, right speed, and enough back drive resistance to hold settings. I get the off-axis pushrod loads off the servo with a little bellcrank, and put adjustable limit switches on the bellcrank after I know where the limits should be. Using the P version for elevators for position data - calcs say I may need to fly two trim tab. Flight test will let me know if I can omit the motor and lock that side, then fly the other or if I have to run them both.
Thanks for the feedback on cable. After searching I just bought separate wires in same color scheme and will twist them into sets. Stein had not popped in my search, but I just looked at their site and there it is.
Billski
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512404#51240
|
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Voyager
Joined: 30 Jun 2020
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2023 11:21 am Post subject: Power, signal, and Coax - How should they be bundled? |
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The answer is: it depends. For most power (>12 V, low current <10A) and most signal (>1 V, slow transition ms to μs) lines, it won’t matter much. However, add in higher currents >>10A, lower voltage <1 mV, fast transition (ns) and things get dicier. Now, there aren’t many such signals in a light airplane, but some items to pay attention to are magnetometers, GPS antennas, cables and connections, CANbus, and higher speed switching devices like strobes and such. Even audio related devices and cables can be bothered as these often operate at mV signal levels.
My philosophy is to do the things at the outset that are fairly easy to do. I generally use twisted pair wires for power and return to each device unless using the airframe as the return. You can easily twist your own with a drill or buy premade twisted pair wire at a very small cost premium. And the twisted wires tend to be easy to tie into a bundle.
I separate higher current and fast switching wires from signal wires such as communication (CANbus, Ethernet, RS232, ARINC 429, etc.), coax antenna, etc.
These two simple practices, combined with proper single point grounding, will eliminate 99% of possible issues with almost zero additional effort and cost.
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Nov 18, 2023, at 12:47 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> wrote:
Looks good. I suspect that the same point that I was trying to make would still apply; There's no worry about running power & signal in the same bundle.
On Sat, Nov 18, 2023 at 10:04 AM wsimpso1 <wsimpso1(at)comcast.net (wsimpso1(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "wsimpso1" <wsimpso1(at)comcast.net (wsimpso1(at)comcast.net)>
Charlie,
Not Menzimer, using Actuonix P-16P for elevators, P-16L for rudder and aileron. As light as MAC, fits in my stabilizers, less expensive, rated for dust and condensation, right speed, and enough back drive resistance to hold settings. I get the off-axis pushrod loads off the servo with a little bellcrank, and put adjustable limit switches on the bellcrank after I know where the limits should be. Using the P version for elevators for position data - calcs say I may need to fly two trim tab. Flight test will let me know if I can omit the motor and lock that side, then fly the other or if I have to run them both.
Thanks for the feedback on cable. After searching I just bought separate wires in same color scheme and will twist them into sets. Stein had not popped in my search, but I just looked at their site and there it is.
Billski
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512404#51240
|
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Ceengland
Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 391
Location: MS
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2023 1:40 pm Post subject: Power, signal, and Coax - How should they be bundled? |
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Thanks for generalizing on my specific point about running power & signals down separate sides of the fuselage for a trim servo. 
On 11/18/2023 1:19 PM, Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
| Quote: | The answer is: it depends. For most power (>12 V, low current <10A) and most signal (>1 V, slow transition ms to μs) lines, it won’t matter much. However, add in higher currents >>10A, lower voltage <1 mV, fast transition (ns) and things get dicier. Now, there aren’t many such signals in a light airplane, but some items to pay attention to are magnetometers, GPS antennas, cables and connections, CANbus, and higher speed switching devices like strobes and such. Even audio related devices and cables can be bothered as these often operate at mV signal levels.
My philosophy is to do the things at the outset that are fairly easy to do. I generally use twisted pair wires for power and return to each device unless using the airframe as the return. You can easily twist your own with a drill or buy premade twisted pair wire at a very small cost premium. And the twisted wires tend to be easy to tie into a bundle.
I separate higher current and fast switching wires from signal wires such as communication (CANbus, Ethernet, RS232, ARINC 429, etc.), coax antenna, etc.
These two simple practices, combined with proper single point grounding, will eliminate 99% of possible issues with almost zero additional effort and cost.
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Nov 18, 2023, at 12:47 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> (ceengland7(at)gmail.com) wrote:
Looks good. I suspect that the same point that I was trying to make would still apply; There's no worry about running power & signal in the same bundle.
On Sat, Nov 18, 2023 at 10:04 AM wsimpso1 <wsimpso1(at)comcast.net (wsimpso1(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "wsimpso1" <wsimpso1(at)comcast.net (wsimpso1(at)comcast.net)>
Charlie,
Not Menzimer, using Actuonix P-16P for elevators, P-16L for rudder and aileron. As light as MAC, fits in my stabilizers, less expensive, rated for dust and condensation, right speed, and enough back drive resistance to hold settings. I get the off-axis pushrod loads off the servo with a little bellcrank, and put adjustable limit switches on the bellcrank after I know where the limits should be. Using the P version for elevators for position data - calcs say I may need to fly two trim tab. Flight test will let me know if I can omit the motor and lock that side, then fly the other or if I have to run them both.
Thanks for the feedback on cable. After searching I just bought separate wires in same color scheme and will twist them into sets. Stein had not popped in my search, but I just looked at their site and there it is.
Billski
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512404#51240
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wsimpso1
Joined: 04 Nov 2018
Posts: 33
Location: Saline MI
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2023 6:52 am Post subject: Re: Power, signal, and Coax - How should they be bundled? |
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This one:
https://www.actuonix.com/p16-50-256-12-p
I calculated hinge moments on my trim tabs, and the other P-16's would back drive, but the 256:1 was adequate.
Doing your own homework is essential. The system has to be able to move the tab against aero loads and then hold, ideally without feedback or power. For my purposes this actuator, a bellcrank with mechanical advantage of 1.54, and then my pushrod gives me the actuation force, needed travel, and supports a system adjustable for servo through anti-servo action for the tab.
Billski
| | - The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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kenryan
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2023 10:48 am Post subject: Power, signal, and Coax - How should they be bundled? |
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Matt, what you say makes sense to me. Plus, if there is a problem, these possible causes, no matter how remote, have already been eliminated.
On Mon, Nov 20, 2023 at 7:42 AM Matthew Whiting <m.whiting(at)frontier.com (m.whiting(at)frontier.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Well, not exactly. Your point seemed to be that there is never a problem running power and signal lines together so just do it. My point is that this is true most of the time, but not all of the time. Given that, unless if requires jumping through some pretty big hoops, and it seldom does, I always separate power and signal as there is seldom a reason to not separate them and it removes one more possible source of issues. So why not just do it as normal practice. Generally, it costs nothing or next to nothing in either dollars or time so why not just run power and signal separately as a matter of course? This is as close to a free lunch as engineering ever gives you.
Matt
| Quote: | On Nov 18, 2023, at 4:44 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com (ceengland7(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
Thanks for generalizing on my specific point about running power & signals down separate sides of the fuselage for a trim servo.
On 11/18/2023 1:19 PM, Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
| Quote: | The answer is: it depends. For most power (>12 V, low current <10A) and most signal (>1 V, slow transition ms to μs) lines, it won’t matter much. However, add in higher currents >>10A, lower voltage <1 mV, fast transition (ns) and things get dicier. Now, there aren’t many such signals in a light airplane, but some items to pay attention to are magnetometers, GPS antennas, cables and connections, CANbus, and higher speed switching devices like strobes and such. Even audio related devices and cables can be bothered as these often operate at mV signal levels.
My philosophy is to do the things at the outset that are fairly easy to do. I generally use twisted pair wires for power and return to each device unless using the airframe as the return. You can easily twist your own with a drill or buy premade twisted pair wire at a very small cost premium. And the twisted wires tend to be easy to tie into a bundle.
I separate higher current and fast switching wires from signal wires such as communication (CANbus, Ethernet, RS232, ARINC 429, etc.), coax antenna, etc.
These two simple practices, combined with proper single point grounding, will eliminate 99% of possible issues with almost zero additional effort and cost.
Sent from my iPad
| Quote: | On Nov 18, 2023, at 12:47 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7(at)gmail.com> (ceengland7(at)gmail.com) wrote:
Looks good. I suspect that the same point that I was trying to make would still apply; There's no worry about running power & signal in the same bundle.
On Sat, Nov 18, 2023 at 10:04 AM wsimpso1 <wsimpso1(at)comcast.net (wsimpso1(at)comcast.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "wsimpso1" <wsimpso1(at)comcast.net (wsimpso1(at)comcast.net)>
Charlie,
Not Menzimer, using Actuonix P-16P for elevators, P-16L for rudder and aileron. As light as MAC, fits in my stabilizers, less expensive, rated for dust and condensation, right speed, and enough back drive resistance to hold settings. I get the off-axis pushrod loads off the servo with a little bellcrank, and put adjustable limit switches on the bellcrank after I know where the limits should be. Using the P version for elevators for position data - calcs say I may need to fly two trim tab. Flight test will let me know if I can omit the motor and lock that side, then fly the other or if I have to run them both.
Thanks for the feedback on cable. After searching I just bought separate wires in same color scheme and will twist them into sets. Stein had not popped in my search, but I just looked at their site and there it is.
Billski
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=512404#51240
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