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David.Lehman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 265
Location: "Lovely" Fresno CA

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:53 pm Post subject: Gap Seal

Then there is this:

  

 http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X19633&key=1

  

 DVD

  

 do not archive



 

 On 9/15/07, ElleryWeld(at)aol.com (ElleryWeld(at)aol.com) <ElleryWeld(at)aol.com (ElleryWeld(at)aol.com)> wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		  REALLY its not a big deal Flying without the gap seal  at least in my Firestar  it just makes it a convertible top 

There is no difference in how it fly's  with or without  it 



                                                                        

Ellery in Maine



do not archive

**************************************<   	  Quote: 	
		  

	
	


-- 

ô¿ô - "As pilots we are special, unique, a rare breed, passionate, and generally somewhat odd." ~ Dave Wiley   [quote][b]

_________________
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"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute."

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flymichigan(at)comcast.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:33 pm Post subject: Gap Seal

jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:37 pm Post subject: Gap Seal

When I got my Firefly it did not have a gap seal.  I considered putting

one on but I'm 6-01 and I think it would make it more difficult to get in

and out of the Firefly.

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:21 pm Post subject: Gap Seal

OK, with all the talk about how important the center section gap seal is on 

the later birds, how 'bout the Ultrastar?  Mine didn't come with one, the 

previous owner said it made little or no difference, after it ripped he 

never replaced it, but he only flew the plane a few times.



				-Dana

--

--

Every election, Mickey Mouse looks better and better as President.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:54 pm Post subject: Gap Seal

 	  Quote: 	
		   OK, with all the talk about how important the center section gap seal is 

 on the later birds, how 'bout the Ultrastar?

 -Dana


	




Dana:



My own personal experience came as a shock when I learned, in the air, that 

flying an Ultrastar without the gap seal seriously degraded performance of 

the aircraft.



Always in a hurry to get stuff done so I could fly, back in the early days, 

I decided to do a quick test flight around the patch without the US gap 

seal.  Soon as I was in the air I realized it was there for more than 

aesthetics.



The original nylon gap seal Old Kolb provided were quickly destroyed by UV. 

I found that normal roofing valley aluminum made an excellent gap seal. 

Welded a couple tabs fore and aft, top and bottom, to attach with tinnerman 

nuts.  Worked great.



Later on decided I should use "real" aircraft material, so bought an 

expensive roll of 2024 aluminum.  In a matter of hours the 2024 started 

cracking and splitting.  The cheap, soft hardware store variety worked much 

better.



Some low time Kolb pilots don't know the difference between a good flying 

Kolb and one that flies like a dog.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject: Gap Seal

At 08:53 PM 9/17/2007, John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



My own personal experience came as a shock when I learned, in the air, 

that flying an Ultrastar without the gap seal seriously degraded 

performance of the aircraft.


	


John, degraded how?



                                 -Dana

--

--

In England, the cops say, 'Halt or I'll say halt again!'

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:40 pm Post subject: Gap Seal

>

 	  Quote: 	
		   John, degraded how?



                                 -Dana


	




Dana:



Performance of the Ultrastar is seriously degraded.  You know, like it takes 

a heck of a lot more power to make the airplane fly.  There is a tremendous 

amount of drag on the airplane.  In addition, it loses lift and degrades the 

controls.  Typically, what happens when the airflow is seriously screwed up 

in and around the airplane.



That is my experience with the Ultrastar circa 1984 or 85.  Maybe all that 

has changed by now.  



My 1986 Firestar also suffered from the same characteristics when flown 

without the gap seal.  Again, that was a long time ago, like 1986 ot 87.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:20 pm Post subject: Gap Seal

I'll second what John H says. Number of years ago watched a Firestar take 

off  and was about 50' up when the gap seal came loose. The pilot was good, 

but he almost lost it getting it down alongside the runway. Scared him 

badly, said it wanted to quit flying on him.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

do not archive



---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:00 pm Post subject: Gap Seal

The pilot's failure to maintain airspeed, which resulted in a stall

 

 I think this would be  the only reason  PILOT error  forgetting to fly the plane after he had lost the gap seal 

 I know this first hand as I had one fly off while  doing stalls one day  I cant believe it didnt get in the prop  but the plane flew as good  without it as it did with it 

 and I have flown it many times without it  and I havent wrecked it yet because I never  forget to fly the plane 

 

 Ellery in Maine

     "Mainiac"

 

 do not archive

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jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:14 pm Post subject: Gap Seal

Dana, John et al, The explanation for the degraded performance of a wing without a gap seal is simple. With a gap seal, you have two wing tip vortices, without, you have four. On top of that the two inner vortices interfere with each other by spinning in opposite directions. 

The two wings flying side by side have half the aspect ratio of the full wing so a much larger percentage of each wing is involved in spanwise flow. The net result is not just more than twice the induced drag, but a significant reduction in lift, too. 



Rick



On 9/17/07, Richard Pike <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)>



I'll second what John H says. Number of years ago watched a Firestar take

off  and was about 50' up when the gap seal came loose. The pilot was good, 

but he almost lost it getting it down alongside the runway. Scared him

badly, said it wanted to quit flying on him.



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

do not archive



---

Jim ODay

Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 61
Location: Fargo North Dakota

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: Gap Seal

John H says: "Some low time Kolb pilots don't know the difference between a good flying

Kolb and one that flies like a dog. " 



...... I know how mine flies, but I do not have anything to compare it to; I may be flying a "dog".    

I am a low time Kolb pilot and I only have my Kolb to judge flight characteristics from. 



I built a Gap Seal from lexan.  The top is nearly a complete seal except for the area around the the engine mount.  There is no TOP side coverage on a section about the size of the engine mounting plate platform. 



I have a BRS on a shelf under the seal and I fabricated a door that will allow the chute to pass through if ever needed.  It is held in place with a aluminum hinge and Velcro.  I have been experimenting with the amount of Velcro needed to keep it closed during flight, but not enough to slow the chute deployment.  It has partially opened in a corner during flight, I am looking at alternate ways to hold it in place.



The bottom is OPEN.  The leading edge is formed aluminum and that extends about 12" back, but then it is open all the way to the rear.



My question is about the open bottom.  I saw it quite a challenge to build the bottom section around the BRS, and it got harder the further back I went.  I figured the the top was the most important and I could skip the bottom.



Does an open bottom gap seal = a "dog" Kolb?  



The pictures are some I made when I was fitting up everything.  The BRS pack is missing plus I had not finished the Velcro around the trap door.



What do you think Kolb fliers?

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_________________
Jim O'Day
Fargo, ND
Former Firestar II Builder/Pilot

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:39 pm Post subject: Gap Seal

Hi Ellery:

  

 Never flew a FSII without the gap seal.  Can only  speak for the original FS and US, which in my opinion flew much better than  any FSII I have flown over the years.

  

 I was very fortunate, last june, while at Homer Kolb's, to  get to fly the 1985 Oshkosh Grand Champion Firestar powered with a dual carb  503.  Mine had a 40 hp 447, which Homer would not sell me with the  kit.  Kit came with a 35 hp 377.   Homer's FS was a rocket ship,  very light and powerful.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  	  Quote: 	
		      the plane flew as good  without it as it did    with it 

 

Ellery in  Maine

 

	
   [quote][b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:15 am Post subject: Gap Seal

Hi,

re gap seals.

On my Challenger after a few times taking the gap seal off to oil the 

control joints and check connections on DI and putting it on again I gave up 

and never bothered to use it again.  Never seemed to make a detectable 

difference but then  maybe I just ham handed.

The gap between the wingroots was about 10 inches.



Pat



do not archive

ElleryWeld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:14 am Post subject: Gap Seal

I Fly an Original Firestar  but I have flown the Firefly and the Mk3Xtra  I think they all fly real similar to one another 

 

 the original Firestar  and Firefly you have to put left Rudder input with quick excelleration and the Mk3 Xtra You have to put a whole boot full of Right Rudder on take off  because of Prop  rotation 

 

 Ellery in Maine 

 

 do not archive

**************************************< [quote][b]

possums(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 11:06 am Post subject: Gap Seal

At 11:15 PM 9/17/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



John H says: "Some low time Kolb pilots don't know the difference 

between a good flying

Kolb and one that flies like a dog. "



The bottom is OPEN.  The leading edge is formed aluminum and that 

extends about 12" back, but then it is open all the way to the rear.



My question is about the open bottom.  I saw it quite a challenge to 

build the bottom section around the BRS, and it got harder the 

further back I went.  I figured the the top was the most important 

and I could skip the bottom.



Does an open bottom gap seal = a "dog" Kolb?


	


The bottom on mine is open and just slides into the tracks on the end of

the wings, held by two screws on the front. Flys fine.

It's not as wide as a Mark III gap seal would be, so I don't know about those.

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d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:39 pm Post subject: Gap Seal

At 11:12 PM 9/17/2007, Richard Girard wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  ...With a gap seal, you have two wing tip vortices, without, you have 

four. On top of that the two inner vortices interfere with each other by 

spinning in opposite directions.

The two wings flying side by side have half the aspect ratio of the full 

wing so a much larger percentage of each wing is involved in spanwise 

flow. The net result is not just more than twice the induced drag, but a 

significant reduction in lift, too.


	


I don't think you'd have twice the induced drag, the vortices going in 

opposite direction would tend to cancel each other out, somewhat... but I 

can see that it still could be signfiicant.  More significant, perhaps, may 

be the disturbance of the airflow over the tail and/or through the prop 

(the latter may be more significant on the low boom Kolbs than on my US 

with its prop completely under the wing).



What's odd is the number of people who say it makes no difference at all?



Anyway, I figure it's worth putting it on... once I get familiar with the 

plane I might try it without it to see the difference.



My thought is to use .040" clear vinyl sheet, velcroed to the wings and 

wrapping all the way around, and secured with cords where it breaks for the 

cage structure.  Quick and easy, and since it wraps all the way around and 

attaches to itself, no chance of it coming off and going through the 

prop.  Comments?



                                 -Dana

--

--

"Calvin, we will not have an anatomically correct snowman!"

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:51 pm Post subject: Gap Seal

 	  Quote: 	
		   What's odd is the number of people who say it makes no difference at all?



 Anyway, I figure it's worth putting it on... once I get familiar with the 

 plane I might try it without it to see the difference.


	




I find it odd that people say that it makes no difference as well. I have 

flown Mark III with gap seal ( mine) and another when I was getting my 

Ultralight pilots lic with no gap seal and the one with no seal flew like a 

dog. It was a bear to land, stall was about 60 or more with flaps. I 

attempted to try to convince the guy to put one on. He would not. I believe 

it is scrap parts now.

Larry C



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_________________
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GeoR38

Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 60
Location: The Villages, fl

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:25 am Post subject: Gap Seal

In a message dated 9/18/2007 11:52:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  

 	  Quote: 	
		      What's odd is the number of people who say it makes no difference at    all?



 Anyway, I figure it's worth putting it on... once I get    familiar with the 

 plane I might try it without it to see the    difference.


	




I find it odd that people say that it makes no    difference as well. I have 

flown Mark III with gap seal ( mine) and    another when I was getting my 

Ultralight pilots lic with no gap seal and    the one with no seal flew like a 

dog. It was a bear to land, stall was    about 60 or more with flaps. I 

attempted to try to convince the guy to put    one on. He would not. I believe 

it is scrap parts now.

Larry    C

	


 

 I just crow hopped my firestar KX after 2 1/2 years of nonflying and had to  rediscover how to swim again..... and I did not have the gap seal on yet. Took  55mph to get off the ground (but I had gained a little weight too, squirrelled  to the right...probably p factor....with full left rudder ....but it went right  anyway and gradually veered left....just before I hit the tree in front of  me....soooooo I didn't hit the tree afterall. It finally became controllable and  I took off, going very fast...Hall was pegged at 55.....backed off on throttle,  more n more n more and it finally started to come down.....it was floating for  sure.... and I landed several times as the speed was still high.........sooooo  busy didn't care to look at Hall.

  

 Lotsa squirrels to that flight..............rest assured, my next attempt  will be WITH gapseal.

  

 George Randolph

 Firestar driver in the Villages, florida.... testing at Richard Swiderski's  house



See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]

_________________
George Randolph
Firestar driver, The Villages, fl

GeoR38

Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 60
Location: The Villages, fl

Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:54 pm Post subject: Gap Seal

In a message dated 9/18/2007 11:52:17 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  What's    odd is the number of people who say it makes no difference at    all?

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Anyway, I figure it's worth putting it on... once I get    familiar with the 

 plane I might try it without it to see the    difference.


	




I find it odd that people say that it makes no    difference as well. I have 

flown Mark III with gap seal ( mine) and    another when I was getting my 

Ultralight pilots lic with no gap seal and    the one with no seal flew like a 

dog. It was a bear to land, stall was    about 60 or more with flaps. I 

attempted to try to convince the guy to put    one on. He would not. I believe 

it is scrap parts now.

Larry    C



do not archive 

	


 

 I just crow hopped my "by George" Firestar KX without a gap seal and it was  learning how to swim all over again. I really didn't think the gap seal could  make that much difference ....and I have not flown the puppy for 2  years,



See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.

  [quote][b]

_________________
George Randolph
Firestar driver, The Villages, fl

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:39 am Post subject: gap seal

Dana

Or you could make it permanent,  bolt it on and forget it.



Boyd 

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

My thought is to use .040" clear vinyl sheet, velcroed to the wings and 
	


wrapping all the way around, and secured with cords where it breaks for the 

cage structure.  Quick and easy, and since it wraps all the way around and 

attaches to itself, no chance of it coming off and going through the 

prop.  Comments?



                                 -Dana

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