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HKS and ethanol

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lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2024 5:25 pm Post subject: HKS and ethanol

Getting tired of driving so far to get non Ethanol gasoline. I have an HKS on my Firestar. The tanks have never had any oil mixed fuel in them. Is there a real reason to continue buying non ethanol fuel?

Thanks

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gdhelton(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 6:15 am Post subject: HKS and ethanol

I thought HKS was 4 cycle engines? Anyway the problem there is really is a possibility of lead fouling a spark plug. 

Sent from my iPhone



 	  Quote: 	
		   On Aug 7, 2024, at 9:26 PM, lcottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 

 

 

 Getting tired of driving so far to get non Ethanol gasoline. I have an HKS on my Firestar. The tanks have never had any oil mixed fuel in them. Is there a real reason to continue buying non ethanol fuel?

 Thanks

 

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jhauck

Joined: 02 Jan 2020
Posts: 26

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 6:21 am Post subject: HKS and ethanol

The problem is lead fouling inside the engine on bearing surfaces, not plug fouling.



Both Rotax and HKS are authorized to burn 100LL which is loaded with lead.  The requirement to use 100LL is more frequent oil changes.



John h

Titus, Alabama



--

stuart(at)harnerfarm.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 6:50 am Post subject: HKS and ethanol

One would think the HKS could handle up to 10% ethanol. The owner's 

manual should say if it can tolerate ethanol and what the minimum octane is.



In any case, are you thinking of going to regular car gas?



100LL is ethanol free and has basically no shelf life, but I didn't take 

it that you were asking about 100LL.



Was at a seminar at OSH where they talked about the new G100UL gas that 

has been approved by the FAA. No lead and high enough octane to run in 

just about anything. Rotax is fine with it for both the 4 stroke and 2 

stroke engines. It sounds like that will become available at just about 

all airports in the next couple of years as they shut down the last of 

the 100LL production.



IN the mean time Rotax is saying up to 10% is fine as long as you get 

enough octane for your particular engine. In most places that is either 

premium auto gas at the pump or sometimes marketed as ethanol free 

recreation fuel.



In the case of your HKS Larry, I would think that if it can tolerate a 

little ethanol you would be fine with regular car gas at the pump as 

long as you can get enough octane. Just remember that it has a very 

limited shelf life so you don't want to stock up on too much at a time. 

Also I would think that the occasional use of 100LL would have little or 

no impact on your engine.



The only other concern would be fuel system components. Tanks, lines, 

pump, etc.



Are you still flying every day you can?



Stuart



On 8/7/24 20:25, lcottrell wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Getting tired of driving so far to get non Ethanol gasoline. I have an HKS on my Firestar. The tanks have never had any oil mixed fuel in them. Is there a real reason to continue buying non ethanol fuel?

 Thanks



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 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513762#513762

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 7:36 am Post subject: HKS and ethanol

My problem with fuel is that I have to drive 130 miles to get non ethanol. I live in a remote area, so my options are limited. Cost is also a factor. As far as my flight times, I am cutting back quite a bit. Have seen everything several times, so some of the shine has diminished.

Thanks for the reply.

Larry 

On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 8:51 AM Stuart Harner <stuart(at)harnerfarm.net (stuart(at)harnerfarm.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: Stuart Harner <stuart(at)harnerfarm.net (stuart(at)harnerfarm.net)>

 One would think the HKS could handle up to 10% ethanol. The owner's 

 manual should say if it can tolerate ethanol and what the minimum octane is.

 In any case, are you thinking of going to regular car gas?

 100LL is ethanol free and has basically no shelf life, but I didn't take 

 it that you were asking about 100LL.

 Was at a seminar at OSH where they talked about the new G100UL gas that 

 has been approved by the FAA. No lead and high enough octane to run in 

 just about anything. Rotax is fine with it for both the 4 stroke and 2 

 stroke engines. It sounds like that will become available at just about 

 all airports in the next couple of years as they shut down the last of 

 the 100LL production.

 IN the mean time Rotax is saying up to 10% is fine as long as you get 

 enough octane for your particular engine. In most places that is either 

 premium auto gas at the pump or sometimes marketed as ethanol free 

 recreation fuel.

 In the case of your HKS Larry, I would think that if it can tolerate a 

 little ethanol you would be fine with regular car gas at the pump as 

 long as you can get enough octane. Just remember that it has a very 

 limited shelf life so you don't want to stock up on too much at a time. 

 Also I would think that the occasional use of 100LL would have little or 

 no impact on your engine.

 The only other concern would be fuel system components. Tanks, lines, 

 pump, etc.

 Are you still flying every day you can?

 Stuart

 On 8/7/24 20:25, lcottrell wrote:

 > --> Kolb-List message posted by: "lcottrell" <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)>

 >

 > Getting tired of driving so far to get non Ethanol gasoline. I have an HKS on my Firestar. The tanks have never had any oil mixed fuel in them. Is there a real reason to continue buying non ethanol fuel?

 > Thanks

 >

 > --------

 > do not archive

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > Read this topic online here:

 >

 > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513762#513762

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

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Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 391
Location: MS

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 7:40 am Post subject: HKS and ethanol

On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 8:26 PM lcottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "lcottrell" <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)>

 

 Getting tired of driving so far to get non Ethanol gasoline. I have an HKS on my Firestar. The tanks have never had any oil mixed fuel in them. Is there a real reason to continue buying non ethanol fuel?

 Thanks 	
Why 'd0 n0t archive'? You're asking a sensible question, and both the question and answers could help someone else in the future.

On the issue of Egas vs non-Egas: I can't directly address the HKS, but *usually*, the issue with ethanol is more the a/c fuel system and the engine's accessories than the engine itself. If you have a fiberglass fuel tank, you're likely at risk of damage from ethanol. If you have plastic or 'traditional' rubber fuel lines, same thing. If the engine has an engine driven fuel pump, the 'soft' parts *might* be at risk, but it would seem unlikely, since most a/c engine accessories are derivatives of automotive/sports engine stuff, and all that has been adapted to Egas decades ago.

The engine itself doesn't care, as long as octane of the fuel is adequate, and most non-Egas is the same or lower octane rating as equivalent Egas.

As a FWIW, I've been running Egas from the nearest gas station in my 180 HP Lycoming  IO360 in my RV6 for several years without issue. The only parts in an RV or a Lyc that are vulnerable to the ethanol are the 'soft' parts in the very old engine driven fuel pumps, but any pump made in the last 15-20 years has upgraded parts that are E-resistant.

Note that there will be a *slight* increase in vapor lock issues with Egas. Straight ethanol has a lower vapor pressure than gasoline, but due to some strange black magic, when you mix up to around 10-15% with gasoline, the overall vapor pressure increases a bit (meaning the risk of vapor lock goes up). If you run a carb on that engine, you'll need to be a bit more cautious in hot weather, but with the carb out in the airflow where it gets maximum cooling, that shouldn't be a huge risk. If the engine is fuel injected using automotive high pressure injection, the risk goes way down and would be limited to the fuel in the supply line from the tank to the pump getting too hot. And that only if the pump is having to pull the fuel up (pump above the tank instead of below it).

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Charlie

neilsenrm(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 10:56 am Post subject: HKS and ethanol

Larry



I have been burning auto gas in my vw kolb for over twenty years with no

issues. When I store it for the winter I put fuel stabilizer or 100 LL. For

the last 10 years I have been putting non ethanol in it the last few fills

also.

Rick Neilsen



On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 11:37 AM Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com>

wrote:



[quote] My problem with fuel is that I have to drive 130 miles to get non ethanol

stuart(at)harnerfarm.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 11:00 am Post subject: HKS and ethanol

Other than the soft parts of the fuel system the biggest worry of       ethanol is separation.     

When the ethanol absorbs a certain amount of water it becomes too       heavy to stay mixed with the gasoline. It then does a phase       separation where it drops out to the bottom of the tank. Now you       are trying to burn something that has no gasoline in it. 

          

Phase separation was one of the big hurdles to overcome and was       the major reasons it was never adopted for general aviation use.       Mixes of under 10% usually are fine but those over 10% are at a       much greater risk of separation.     

Exact mix proportional control is lax at best for automotive use       and even if tightly controlled at the time of mixing, evaporation       and age of the mix can cause the proportions to vary wildly by the       time it actually gets airborne. Thus the problems with ethanol       that have supposedly been cured by the new G100 stuff. 

          

Considering Larry's location, phase separation my not be an issue       especially if he can keep his supply as fresh as possible. 

          

It's just another one of the many hurdles to private aviation       that helps keep us suppressed.     

Stuart

          



          On 8/8/24 10:40, Charlie England wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                                    

           

         

         

                    On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at             8:26 PM lcottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)>             wrote:

           

            	  Quote: 	
		  -->             Kolb-List message posted by: "lcottrell" <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)>

             

             Getting tired of driving so far to get non Ethanol gasoline.             I have an HKS on my Firestar. The tanks have never had any             oil mixed fuel in them. Is there a real reason to continue             buying non ethanol fuel?

             Thanks 	
           Why               'd0 n0t archive'? You're asking a sensible question, and               both the question and answers could help someone else in               the future.

           

           

           On the             issue of Egas vs non-Egas: I can't directly address the HKS,             but *usually*, the issue with ethanol is more the a/c fuel             system and the engine's accessories than the engine itself.             If you have a fiberglass fuel tank, you're likely at risk of             damage from ethanol. If you have plastic or 'traditional'             rubber fuel lines, same thing. If the engine has an engine             driven fuel pump, the 'soft' parts *might* be at risk, but             it would seem unlikely, since most a/c engine accessories             are derivatives of automotive/sports engine stuff, and all             that has been adapted to Egas decades ago.

           

           

           The engine             itself doesn't care, as long as octane of the fuel is             adequate, and most non-Egas is the same or lower octane             rating as equivalent Egas.

           

           

           As a FWIW,             I've been running Egas from the nearest gas station in my             180 HP Lycoming  IO360 in my RV6 for several years without             issue. The only parts in an RV or a Lyc that are vulnerable             to the ethanol are the 'soft' parts in the very old engine             driven fuel pumps, but any pump made in the last 15-20 years             has upgraded parts that are E-resistant.

           

           

           Note that             there will be a *slight* increase in vapor lock issues with             Egas. Straight ethanol has a lower vapor pressure than             gasoline, but due to some strange black magic, when you mix             up to around 10-15% with gasoline, the overall vapor             pressure increases a bit (meaning the risk of vapor lock             goes up). If you run a carb on that engine, you'll need to             be a bit more cautious in hot weather, but with the carb out             in the airflow where it gets maximum cooling, that shouldn't             be a huge risk. If the engine is fuel injected using             automotive high pressure injection, the risk goes way down             and would be limited to the fuel in the supply line from the             tank to the pump getting too hot. And that only if the pump             is having to pull the fuel up (pump above the tank instead             of below it).

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 12:20 pm Post subject: HKS and ethanol

My concern was the soft parts of the engine when using ethanol. That and the fact that it costs me $50 bucks just to get to a Non ethanol pump, not to mention the extra $1.50 a gallon to get it. 

Thanks for the answers that you all have provided. Just going to bite the bullet and do it. Sigh!

Larry

On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 1:01 PM Stuart Harner <stuart(at)harnerfarm.net (stuart(at)harnerfarm.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		                      

Other than the soft parts of the fuel system the biggest worry of       ethanol is separation.     

When the ethanol absorbs a certain amount of water it becomes too       heavy to stay mixed with the gasoline. It then does a phase       separation where it drops out to the bottom of the tank. Now you       are trying to burn something that has no gasoline in it. 

          

Phase separation was one of the big hurdles to overcome and was       the major reasons it was never adopted for general aviation use.       Mixes of under 10% usually are fine but those over 10% are at a       much greater risk of separation.     

Exact mix proportional control is lax at best for automotive use       and even if tightly controlled at the time of mixing, evaporation       and age of the mix can cause the proportions to vary wildly by the       time it actually gets airborne. Thus the problems with ethanol       that have supposedly been cured by the new G100 stuff. 

          

Considering Larry's location, phase separation my not be an issue       especially if he can keep his supply as fresh as possible. 

          

It's just another one of the many hurdles to private aviation       that helps keep us suppressed.     

Stuart

          



          On 8/8/24 10:40, Charlie England wrote:

     

      	  Quote: 	
		                                    

           

         

         

                    On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at             8:26 PM lcottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)>             wrote:

           

            	  Quote: 	
		  -->             Kolb-List message posted by: "lcottrell" <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com (lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com)>

             

             Getting tired of driving so far to get non Ethanol gasoline.             I have an HKS on my Firestar. The tanks have never had any             oil mixed fuel in them. Is there a real reason to continue             buying non ethanol fuel?

             Thanks 	
           Why               'd0 n0t archive'? You're asking a sensible question, and               both the question and answers could help someone else in               the future.

           

           

           On the             issue of Egas vs non-Egas: I can't directly address the HKS,             but *usually*, the issue with ethanol is more the a/c fuel             system and the engine's accessories than the engine itself.             If you have a fiberglass fuel tank, you're likely at risk of             damage from ethanol. If you have plastic or 'traditional'             rubber fuel lines, same thing. If the engine has an engine             driven fuel pump, the 'soft' parts *might* be at risk, but             it would seem unlikely, since most a/c engine accessories             are derivatives of automotive/sports engine stuff, and all             that has been adapted to Egas decades ago.

           

           

           The engine             itself doesn't care, as long as octane of the fuel is             adequate, and most non-Egas is the same or lower octane             rating as equivalent Egas.

           

           

           As a FWIW,             I've been running Egas from the nearest gas station in my             180 HP Lycoming  IO360 in my RV6 for several years without             issue. The only parts in an RV or a Lyc that are vulnerable             to the ethanol are the 'soft' parts in the very old engine             driven fuel pumps, but any pump made in the last 15-20 years             has upgraded parts that are E-resistant.

           

           

           Note that             there will be a *slight* increase in vapor lock issues with             Egas. Straight ethanol has a lower vapor pressure than             gasoline, but due to some strange black magic, when you mix             up to around 10-15% with gasoline, the overall vapor             pressure increases a bit (meaning the risk of vapor lock             goes up). If you run a carb on that engine, you'll need to             be a bit more cautious in hot weather, but with the carb out             in the airflow where it gets maximum cooling, that shouldn't             be a huge risk. If the engine is fuel injected using             automotive high pressure injection, the risk goes way down             and would be limited to the fuel in the supply line from the             tank to the pump getting too hot. And that only if the pump             is having to pull the fuel up (pump above the tank instead             of below it).

         

       

     	
     

	


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The older I get, the less tolerant I am of those who are intolerant of others.





If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.

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Ceengland

Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 391
Location: MS

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2024 1:02 pm Post subject: HKS and ethanol

Phase separation really is a 'thing', but it seems likely a Kolb with any engine running a carb without mixture adjustment would quit from running too rich (or the pilot will freeze) before the plane gets high and cold enough for it to happen. I know the guys up north fly in colder conditions than us wimps in the deep south, but does anyone fly up in the O2 levels in winter? It's worth getting past the 'bumper sticker' and dig into the conditions required for it to happen. Another example would be vapor pressure issues. higher vapor lock risk, as I mentioned earlier, but strangely, once ethanol percentage gets above 15% or so the vapor pressure actually drops to equal or below straight gas, meaning *lower* risk of vapor lock. 	  Quote: 	
		  





 	


Water absorption is a thing too, but there's theory and then there's practice. I think Yogi Berra had it right.  

My RV6 is hangared in a rather drafty hangar in what's probably the highest humidity area in the USA (Mississippi, with RH often above 80%), sits for sometimes a month or more at a time with big day/night temperature swings and water dripping off the inside of the metal roof most mornings, and I've never, ever, found a drop of water in the sumps. IMO, the risk of water getting in the fuel is no joke if a plane is tied down outside, but that's true no matter what fuel is used.

Having said all that, everyone should evaluate the risks/benefits for themselves, and make their own decisions.

Virus-free.www.avast.com[url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2][/url]

_________________
Charlie

Arty Trost

Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 205
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2024 8:42 am Post subject: HKS and ethanol

Larry,

I was told by Rotax mechanics that as long as you're flying frequently you don't need to worry about using regular gas. During the spring, summer, and early fall I fly with 91 premium (in my 912ULS) since I'm flying every few days, or at the least, weekly. During the rainy season I switch to non-ethanol since my flying opportunities are fewer.

Arty

"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."

 



    On Thursday, August 8, 2024 at 08:39:28 AM PDT, Larry Cottrell <lcottrell1020(at)gmail.com> wrote:  

 

 My problem with fuel is that I have to drive 130 miles to get non ethanol. I live in a remote area, so my options are limited. Cost is also a factor. As far as my flight times, I am cutting back quite a bit. Have seen everything several times, so some of the shine has diminished.Thanks for the reply.Larry 

On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 8:51 AM Stuart Harner <stuart(at)harnerfarm.net> wrote:






One would think the HKS could handle up to 10% ethanol. The owner's 

manual should say if it can tolerate ethanol and what the minimum octane is

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2024 11:25 am Post subject: Re: HKS and ethanol

When my buddy Ed was keeping his FSII in the hangar next to me, he used ethanol fuel in his 582, the key was to take the float bowls off and just dump the fuel after each flight. Otherwise the ethanol will crud up the carb internals.

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2024 11:52 am Post subject: HKS and ethanol

Thanks Richard. I had no idea that there was anyone left on the list. 

 I live in a remote part of Oregon, and the one station that is within 40 miles of me has non ethanol fuel, sells it for more than 5  and change. Their ethanol fuel is still higher than the non ethanol in Boise Idaho, where I go shopping. So I just as well use non ethanol.

Larry

On Sun, Aug 25, 2024 at 1:26 PM Richard Pike <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" <thegreybaron(at)charter.net (thegreybaron(at)charter.net)>

 

 When my buddy Ed was keeping his FSII in the hangar next to me, he used ethanol fuel in his 582, the key was to take the float bowls off and just dump the fuel after each flight. Otherwise the ethanol will crud up the carb internals.

 

 --------

 Richard Pike

 Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 Kingsport, TN 3TN0

 

 Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

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If you forward this email, or any part of it, please remove my email address before sending.

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alfuller194(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2024 12:06 pm Post subject: HKS and ethanol

Agreed,  we have seen the same thing with old cars that sit around a lot - the ethanol picks up water from the atmosphere and cruds up the fuel system. Vehicles that get used a lot [and therefore don’t have ethanol containing fuel sitting there going stale] usually don’t have issues. Those who let it sit around do have issues. Now, I have to go out and look at a fuel system myself that has been sitting around... ☹



-----------------------------------

All the best,



Al Fuller



--

Arty Trost

Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 205
Location: Sandy, Oregon

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2024 11:22 am Post subject: HKS and ethanol

I want to underscore what alfuller194 wrote: when you fly a lot, you don't have to worry about using mogas with ethanol. I use clear (non-ethanol) mogas in the winter when I fly less frequently.

Arty





"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."



         



                  

                                                                        On Sunday, August 25, 2024 at 01:09:21 PM PDT, alfuller194(at)gmail.com <alfuller194(at)gmail.com> wrote:                     

                     



                     



                                                   --> Kolb-List message posted by: <alfuller194(at)gmail.com (alfuller194(at)gmail.com)>



Agreed,  we have seen the same thing with old cars that sit around a lot - the ethanol picks up water from the atmosphere and cruds up the fuel system. Vehicles that get used a lot [and therefore don’t have ethanol containing fuel sitting there going stale] usually don’t have issues. Those who let it sit around do have issues. Now, I have to go out and look at a fuel system myself that has been sitting around... ☹



-----------------------------------



All the best,



Al Fuller



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