Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

If you don't set the prop toa  degree setting, what dod you use as a 

starting datum?

I use an electronic level and sice doing so has made a diff to smoothness





From:  "Dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com>

Reply-To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To:  <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject:  Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

Date:  Sat, 21 Oct 2006 06:55:36 -0400




Guy,  please post some pics of the Exhaust  There is a length in the Rotax 

manual for length from exhaust port to the muffler including the cone( that 

is the part that Skystar modified with a few bends as well as chopping off 

about 1 " or so of the y pipe manifold but if does seem to work ok.)



Timing etc -- call Rotax Bob Robertson. I have called him for advice many 

times and it always free but keep in mind I buy all rotax stuff from him as 

well.

I think I read that your engine sat idle over 10 years during build time ? 

Possible issues there like crank seals but ask Bob.



Your prop sounds way over propped at your 13 degree setting.   What was it 

at before you changed it ? .   I don't measure my WARP with degrees but set 

all the blades all the same.  I did measure last week though and I think it 

was around 10 degrees or so at the tip . Yours being a 2 inch large dimater 

I would stay closer to 10 degrees. ( mine is 68" )    I set by RPM and how 

it works but I think WARP should be 10 to 11 degrees area.  I used the Warp 

protractor thingy and re pitched to all the same.  I think I made it 1/2 

degree finer approx. and my static went from 5850 5900  to  6150 - 6200 and 

my in flight WOT went from 6600  to  6900 or so.   I also dropped the clip 

on carb needles one notch to the bottom notch  so it all the way rich now. 

and egts have come down from 1200+  to  1100  or a bit less in cruise. Temps 

here are average 30F to 45F degrees this week.  and our elevation is about 

950 asl.



I would set your prop to give  6200 to 6400  rpm  static  to start and 

coarsen it about 1/4 degree at a time from there as needed.  Assuming you 

have stock jetting ( I think the needle is a 11G) the clip should be on 

second notch from bottom of needle  but if EGTS  get over 1200 in cruise I 

would drop one more notch.   I think you said that you have some EIS or 

engine gauges etc ?   How is the impulse achieved ?  A tiny tach will 

confirm or an optical tach that your gauge reading is infact accurate. Tiny 

Tach  --order one from Bob when you call him and he will send out overnight. 

    EGT  confirm it by the look of the spark plugs.



Do you have another 582 owner near you with allot of  experience?  I would 

get him over to help you out as well is possible.   Personally I Think  you 

are getting in way to deep on the technical stuff and you have most likey 

some simple issues here to resolve.



---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:58 pm Post subject: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

I set with Warp gauge originally but never set it to any accurate degree  - 

just all three blades the same

And I just kept changing accordingly  about 3 tries and it was good.



I have used a laser as well and it shine on the wall of hangar 25 feet away 

and all three blades hit the same spot.

I know know the Warp is around 10 or 11 degrees and a GSC 68"  15 to 16.5 

deg is good as well but remember WARP  measure angle at tip and GSC part way 

in ( maybe about 75% or way out from root ,  Where ever the GSC protractor 

fits tight.



Dave

---

_________________
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
Hundreds of Kitfox Movies
Most viewed Kitfox on youtube
Most popular on youtube
Highest rated on youtube

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 10:24 pm Post subject: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

corrected my mistakes, can't type fast.......



If you don't set the prop to a degree setting, what did you use as a 

starting datum?

I use an electronic level and since doing so has made a diff to smoothness



From: "John Anderson" <janderson412(at)hotmail.com>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:54:26 +1300




<janderson412(at)hotmail.com>



If you don't set the prop toa  degree setting, what dod you use as a 

starting datum?

I use an electronic level and sice doing so has made a diff to smoothness





From:  "Dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com>

Reply-To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To:  <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject:  Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

Date:  Sat, 21 Oct 2006 06:55:36 -0400




Guy,  please post some pics of the Exhaust  There is a length in the Rotax 

manual for length from exhaust port to the muffler including the cone( that 

is the part that Skystar modified with a few bends as well as chopping off 

about 1 " or so of the y pipe manifold but if does seem to work ok.)



Timing etc -- call Rotax Bob Robertson. I have called him for advice many 

times and it always free but keep in mind I buy all rotax stuff from him as 

well.

I think I read that your engine sat idle over 10 years during build time ? 

Possible issues there like crank seals but ask Bob.



Your prop sounds way over propped at your 13 degree setting.   What was it 

at before you changed it ? .   I don't measure my WARP with degrees but set 

all the blades all the same.  I did measure last week though and I think it 

was around 10 degrees or so at the tip . Yours being a 2 inch large dimater 

I would stay closer to 10 degrees. ( mine is 68" )    I set by RPM and how 

it works but I think WARP should be 10 to 11 degrees area.  I used the Warp 

protractor thingy and re pitched to all the same.  I think I made it 1/2 

degree finer approx. and my static went from 5850 5900  to  6150 - 6200 and 

my in flight WOT went from 6600  to  6900 or so.   I also dropped the clip 

on carb needles one notch to the bottom notch  so it all the way rich now. 

and egts have come down from 1200+  to  1100  or a bit less in cruise. Temps 

here are average 30F to 45F degrees this week.  and our elevation is about 

950 asl.



I would set your prop to give  6200 to 6400  rpm  static  to start and 

coarsen it about 1/4 degree at a time from there as needed.  Assuming you 

have stock jetting ( I think the needle is a 11G) the clip should be on 

second notch from bottom of needle  but if EGTS  get over 1200 in cruise I 

would drop one more notch.   I think you said that you have some EIS or 

engine gauges etc ?   How is the impulse achieved ?  A tiny tach will 

confirm or an optical tach that your gauge reading is infact accurate. Tiny 

Tach  --order one from Bob when you call him and he will send out overnight. 

    EGT  confirm it by the look of the spark plugs.



Do you have another 582 owner near you with allot of  experience?  I would 

get him over to help you out as well is possible.   Personally I Think  you 

are getting in way to deep on the technical stuff and you have most likey 

some simple issues here to resolve.



---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:41 am Post subject: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

I'm surprised that Warp sets it's blades by the tip angle.  I thought the

greatest action on a propeller occurs at a distance about 2/3the length of

the prop measured from the centre out.  Each blade should be measured

independently to locate the place to attach the  prop protractor.  The tips

of the blades should be a lot finer pitch as the tip speed is considerably

higher.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:29 am Post subject: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

Me too.  I found that I have a difference between the blade pitch of up to 1 

degree if I use the tips as a reference.  Warp strongly disagreed with me 

but, So be it.  I checked the pitch angle of all three blades every two 

inches from the hub out to the tip (after setting the pitch at the 3/4 

position).  As I neared the last three inches at the tip, the angles started 

to drift up to 1 degree in error.  All reading from the hub out to that 

point were very close.  Now, I use the 3/4 position for all my sittings.



Don Smythe

---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:46 am Post subject: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

Don,  The WARP protractor fits nicely on the tip and I have had good success 

doing it there.  are you saying that the blades are not all uniform from 

Root to tip ?   I have no checked but I might . Did you see my latest 

Trailer park video?    17 megs  http://www.cfisher.com/kitfox/    if you 

think my prop is not working properly  , well I hope to get a bit more 

performance yet in that case ......    anyone else ever wonder what a 

Kitfox has for breakfast ?   A  Zenith 701      

I just new GSC  wood blade in last  week and anxious to try them out soon on 

this 582 Kitfox.  My old ones near 500 hours and I figured it time for some 

new ones.   They sure look good out of  the box !!



Now back to Warp prop.   I really don't think it matters how you set you 

prop as long as all blade at the same pitch , track properly and are torqued 

properly and regularly. As long as you get the 6000 to 6200 static rpm and a 

decent cruise . Just watch those EGTs.



Dave

http://www.warpdriveprops.com/protractor.html

2. Setting degrees of pitch. ATTENTION! Always set the degrees of pitch at 

the tip of the blade! Determine the amount of pitch you want in the 

propeller and rotate the protractor wheel the same number of marks from your 

starting point. Example: If your aircraft is sitting level, your starting 

point would be zero. If you want 10 degrees of pitch, move your protractor 

wheel ten marks in the outer scale.



---

dosmythe(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:22 am Post subject: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

Unless we have different Warp protractors, the protractor fits anyplace you 

want to put it.  I'm saying that my blades started to loose uniformity 

during the last 2-3 inches of the tips.  The blades from the hub out to the 

last couple inches were very uniform.  That's why adjusting at the 3/4 point 

makes good sense to me.  That's the point where the prop is developing max 

lift.  I would think that it's most important for the props to be exact in 

pitch at the 3/4 point.  You can set the pitch any place you want for your 

own day to day adjusting just use the exact same point on each blade.  I 

forget the exact number but if you pitch one blade at 20" from hub (example) 

and another blade at 21" you have just put in a 1 degree pitch error between 

the two blades.  Again, I checked this but forget exactly how much error but 

enough to stress that the exact distance from the hub is important.

    It is only my theory but the tips of the warp props are thin and narrow 

possibly causing a very slight "warp" coming out of the molds.  Ha....That's 

why they call them Warp props.   This is where Warp Drive told me, 

"impossible".  To check this on any prop is real easy.  Next time you adjust 

all three props at the tips simply slide the Warp protractor down the blade 

to an exact distance from the hub (around 3/4 length) and record all three 

numbers.  No matter what the angle, they all 3 should read the same.



Don Smythe

---

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

Can't see that it matters as it's only a datum to work to. And being at the 

end there's no chance of another error between blades with measurement 

position . John A.

From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:10:31 -0230






I'm surprised that Warp sets it's blades by the tip angle.  I thought the

greatest action on a propeller occurs at a distance about 2/3the length of

the prop measured from the centre out.  Each blade should be measured

independently to locate the place to attach the  prop protractor.  The tips

of the blades should be a lot finer pitch as the tip speed is considerably

higher.



Noel



 > --

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

At 10:45 AM 10/22/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Don,  The WARP protractor fits nicely on the tip and I have had good success

doing it there.  are you saying that the blades are not all uniform from

Root to tip ?


	


Mine was off about 1/2-3/4 degree. I first set the tip, then shifted to 3/4 

and equalized, trying to hit the mean of all three blades. That way I could 

still use the tip angle as reference.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Jim Shumaker

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 106

Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:47 pm Post subject: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

Me too Don.

  

 Not only did I find the pitch drifted but also the track changed.  I could not track the tips by setting the protactor on the tips but putting the protractor in a few inches the track came in perfect.  Thought it was just my mowing the grass with my blade.

  

 Jim Shumaker

 ---

_________________
Jim Shumaker

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:29 pm Post subject: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

If you use an Inclinometer you can zero it on the hub, then measure the tip 

with the blade horizontal. Can get it to within .1 of °.

From: "Dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 13:45:11 -0400

Don,  The WARP protractor fits nicely on the tip and I have had good success 

doing it there.  are you saying that the blades are not all uniform from 

Root to tip ?   I have no checked but I might . Did you see my latest 

Trailer park video?    17 megs  http://www.cfisher.com/kitfox/    if you 

think my prop is not working properly  , well I hope to get a bit more 

performance yet in that case ......    anyone else ever wonder what a 

Kitfox has for breakfast ?   A  Zenith 701      

I just new GSC  wood blade in last  week and anxious to try them out soon on 

this 582 Kitfox.  My old ones near 500 hours and I figured it time for some 

new ones.   They sure look good out of  the box !!

Now back to Warp prop.   I really don't think it matters how you set you 

prop as long as all blade at the same pitch , track properly and are torqued 

properly and regularly. As long as you get the 6000 to 6200 static rpm and a 

decent cruise . Just watch those EGTs.

Dave

http://www.warpdriveprops.com/protractor.html

2. Setting degrees of pitch. ATTENTION! Always set the degrees of pitch at 

the tip of the blade! Determine the amount of pitch you want in the 

propeller and rotate the protractor wheel the same number of marks from your 

starting point. Example: If your aircraft is sitting level, your starting 

point would be zero. If you want 10 degrees of pitch, move your protractor 

wheel ten marks in the outer scale.

---

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:40 pm Post subject: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

Why do Warpdrive insist on measuring at the tip?? I have always done so as 

the instruction says and have a nice smooth prop, 72" 3 blade. John A.

From: Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 18:17:21 -0700

At 10:45 AM 10/22/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Don,  The WARP protractor fits nicely on the tip and I have had good 

success

doing it there.  are you saying that the blades are not all uniform from

Root to tip ?

Mine was off about 1/2-3/4 degree. I first set the tip, then shifted to 3/4 

and equalized, trying to hit the mean of all three blades. That way I could 

still use the tip angle as reference.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________________________________________________________

Need more speed? Get Xtra Broadband (at) 

http://jetstream.xtra.co.nz/chm/0,,202853-1000,00.html

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:51 pm Post subject: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

Most props are designed so the greatest thrust is developed about 2/3 the

way out from the centre to the tip of the blades.  This is usually the

widest part of the blade too.  The pitch of the blade should thin as you

approach the blade tip as the tip actually travels further per revolution.

Because it also travels faster the tips are closer to stalling at their

subsoni8c speeds.  That's  just another reason to expect the tips to be

thinner pitch.



In the case of Warp blades... These are composite blades and probably do not

act the same way wood or metal blades will.  I guess it is possible that the

tips actually thin out the pitch under load. 



One thing I'm sure of is Warp themselves specify measuring the prop angle at

the tips, for their blades that is the way to do it.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:23 pm Post subject: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

Noel,



I am going to do some more measuring on the WARP  and see what happens if I 

alter it .

No one has commented on the movie but how mine compare with others ?  At 

least I know mine fairly well and any major changes will be easy to detect .



I think it would be nice to be able to optimize the prop by comparing and 

setting all the blade the same which I thought they were al ready.



The Warp blades are heavy and I cannot see them twisting any more than a 

wooden prop.  If you want to see twist look at IVOs .  They are popular for 

some reason and I think allot is the price and they do in fact work fairly 

well.



Only way to figure this puzzle out is to do it .    and Guy ,  I sure hope 

you not more concerned about settings now .  



Dave





---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:29 pm Post subject: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

What is your static rpm WOT?  Should be around 6200 on wheels ..6400 on

floats.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:18 pm Post subject: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

Same on both counts . if you go for higher static  you will run over 7000 

WOT and generally too high egts.

Over all Warp a decent prop  I have found.   I will examine what Don brought 

up and and see if there is any differance.

My only beef now is i get about 6900 WOT will static I am just barely 6200. 

Needle in carbs set full rich.

I run about 102 to 103 mph  WOT on wheels and about 94 to 95 on Amphibs.



I just got a new GSC in 68 inch blade and will try it soon too. I have 

always found GSC a good performing prop.  I heard once the Jimmy Franklin 

refused to use a Ivo on that Skystar video and used the GSC cause of the 

flex in a dive might hit the nose cowl.    Rumor or  truth ?  Mythbusters 

only know for sure   LOL

Dave

---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:29 am Post subject: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

I think I mentioned I have the three blade Ivo-UL with the electric adjust.

I try not to change the pitch to much in flight.  I might thicken it a tad

if I'm on a longer trip.  Most of the flying is in an out of fishing holes

and I'm always taking off or landing.  I do however find the Ivo very

smooth.  If I can ever convince my self that I need a 582 "E" box I'll get

the GSC/Warp ( A GSC adjustable hub with Warp blades)  If I get that set up

I may go with a little longer blade too.  In the mean time I have a number

of people looking out for a Mercedes Smart car.  In Canada all the smart

cars are Diesel.  They can be upped to 65 Hp very easily and are almost the

same weight as the 582.



I've also been playing with the idea of an HAC.  Have a look at that it's so

simple it's almost obscene.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:01 am Post subject: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:10 am Post subject: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

high altitude kit

---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:10 am Post subject: Guy --- Re: Warp Drive Hub

actuallly --    high altitude compensator

---

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum