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revisit alodine subject

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occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:42 am Post subject: revisit alodine subject

We did cover this a while back but I have a  problem. I bought an acid prep and an alodine chromate conversion chemical a few  weeks back and I was delayed and just got around to starting this today. I  warmed up the garage and the aluminum and then poured out a sample of each  chemical to test the process on a piece of the aluminum material. The acid prep  certainly worked and was quite active in cleaning the material. The actual  alodine was completely ineffective however, nothing happened at all. I waited  ten minutes and nothing. 

  

 Is there any posibility that the process is more  complex than apply and wait? I was a little apprehensive when I purchased the  product as the seal was broken and the solution has stained the plastic bottle,  I just wish to know how quick and active alodine usually is before I confront  the NAPA people. 

  

   [quote][b]

Jim Shumaker

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 106

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:00 am Post subject: revisit alodine subject

I noticed that some of the aluminum will yellow and take a coating easily and other alloys will not seem to take the alodine or will require sanding shortly before treatment.  Don't remember the specific alloys but you might want to try scrubbing a sample with scotch brite pad or sand paper and then retreating before assuming that the alodine is bad.

  

 Jim Shumaker

  

 do not archive

 ---

_________________
Jim Shumaker

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:39 pm Post subject: revisit alodine subject

Aluminum alloy has a slight oily coat on it after process. Before alodining 

you must scotbright with water until the water runs off clean and doesn't 

pool. After this, wash the alum and dry, degrease then treat. It will go 

staw colour within minutes. Just light straw is sufficent.

From: "Dave G." <occom(at)ns.sympatico.ca>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: revisit alodine subject

Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 13:41:15 -0400



We did cover this a while back but I have a problem. I bought an acid prep 

and an alodine chromate conversion chemical a few weeks back and I was 

delayed and just got around to starting this today. I warmed up the garage 

and the aluminum and then poured out a sample of each chemical to test the 

process on a piece of the aluminum material. The acid prep certainly worked 

and was quite active in cleaning the material. The actual alodine was 

completely ineffective however, nothing happened at all. I waited ten 

minutes and nothing.



Is there any posibility that the process is more complex than apply and 

wait? I was a little apprehensive when I purchased the product as the seal 

was broken and the solution has stained the plastic bottle, I just wish to 

know how quick and active alodine usually is before I confront the NAPA 

people.



_________________________________________________________________

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occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:07 pm Post subject: revisit alodine subject

---

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:42 pm Post subject: revisit alodine subject

At 09:41 AM 11/5/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  The actual alodine was completely ineffective however, nothing happened at 

all. I waited ten minutes and nothing.


	


Dave,

         What do you mean by this? Was there no color change whatsoever?

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:42 pm Post subject: revisit alodine subject

A good tight wod of s/bright through the spar shoud do the job. That's what 

I did as I REALLY didn't want the risk of corrosion in that area. I then 

added a coat of two pac primer too.

From: "Dave G." <occom(at)ns.sympatico.ca>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: revisit alodine subject

Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 18:07:09 -0400




---

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:47 pm Post subject: revisit alodine subject

At 02:07 PM 11/5/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I think I'm past any factory coating but will try again and see. It wouldn't

be a great use to me if it requires a great deal of sanding to use as it's

the inside of the two new spars and I've dragged scotchbrite through there

as much as I ever will already. I may end up following the other

recommendation I've received and slosh epoxy primer through the spar.


	


         The process you used requires no sanding of bare aluminum. The 

acid prep works on any clean aluminum surface leaving it ready for 

immediate alodine application. You said the acid prep was energetic so the 

surface must have been clean enough. I'm wondering now whether the tubes 

are anodized. Did your tubes show the manufacturer's marks on the outside, 

indicating specification, type, and temper? Or are they a bright, uniform 

silver color?

         Finally, has anyone tried acid-prep on a known anodized surface to 

see if it looks "active"? Have you then tried alodine on it? What happened? 

Given no answer I will henceforth go to my garage and attempt the 

experiment myself and report the results.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

wliles(at)bayou.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:25 pm Post subject: revisit alodine subject

Some types of "Alodine" do not result in the gold color change.  The 

metal remains silver colored.  Check the 'destructions" that came with 

your conversion coating and make certian.

Jerry Liles

Guy Buchanan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 At 02:07 PM 11/5/2006, you wrote:

> I think I'm past any factory coating but will try again and see. It 

> wouldn't

> be a great use to me if it requires a great deal of sanding to use as 

> it's

> the inside of the two new spars and I've dragged scotchbrite through 

> there

> as much as I ever will already. I may end up following the other

> recommendation I've received and slosh epoxy primer through the spar.

         The process you used requires no sanding of bare aluminum. The 

 acid prep works on any clean aluminum surface leaving it ready for 

 immediate alodine application. You said the acid prep was energetic so 

 the surface must have been clean enough. I'm wondering now whether the 

 tubes are anodized. Did your tubes show the manufacturer's marks on 

 the outside, indicating specification, type, and temper? Or are they a 

 bright, uniform silver color?

         Finally, has anyone tried acid-prep on a known anodized 

 surface to see if it looks "active"? Have you then tried alodine on 

 it? What happened? Given no answer I will henceforth go to my garage 

 and attempt the experiment myself and report the results.

 Guy Buchanan

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

ddsyverson(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:37 pm Post subject: revisit alodine subject

On the issue of the Alodine doing nothing after acid treating. I can't say 

that I have tried every Alodine solution out there; however I have found that 

at least two different brands behave differently, appearance wise.



1) The traditional stuff which leaves the straw color so a person can see that 

something has occurred.



2) The stuff that DOESN'T leave a straw color - in this case, it really looks 

like nothing has happened, but I have been told by the manufacturer that is 

exactly what one sees - nothing, but that the conversion coating has 

occurred.



As others have said - if your acid treatment was obviously active (effervesced 

during ythe acid treatment) then it is pretty clear that the aluminum is 

clean and that the alodine should "take".



I'd ask the people who sold it to see what they say. I know that it is 

sometimes pretty hard to get a knowledgeable answers from counter help at 

some stores - possibly ask for a data sheet or a web address where a person 

can ask the company reps directly.



In any case, epoxy sloshing after whatever treatment is still a very good 

idea.



Good Luck.



DO NOT Archive



Dave S

St Paul, MN



On Sunday 05 November 2006 4:46 pm, Guy Buchanan wrote:

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:57 pm Post subject: revisit alodine subject

---

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject: revisit alodine subject

- Some types of "Alodine" do not result in the gold color change.  The

 	  Quote: 	
		   metal remains silver colored.  Check the 'destructions" that came with 

 your conversion coating and make certian.



 Jerry Liles




	


The label clearly indicates that the treated material will be coloured with 

a gold hue. I think the NAPA folks got some 'splainin to do.

jimlc(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:09 pm Post subject: revisit alodine subject

What I found when I did the same thing several years ago was that if 

I acid washed only, as inside the spars, that I tended to only get a 

small color change.  If I was able to rub the aluminum with the 

Scotch pads, I would get a stronger color change.  And if I first 

treated with out being able to give the completely rub with the 

Scotch pad, a later rubbing with the pad still failed to produce the 

strong color change.  I was told at the time that the amount of 

treatment first given was sufficient to protect the metal from 

further treatment, and that I should then consider the metal as 

treated even though I had not gotten the golden or dark brown result 

I got in other cases.

Jim Crowder

At 05:57 PM 11/5/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  >Dave,

>         What do you mean by this? Was there no color change whatsoever?

Yup, that's exactly what I found. The spars are the regular 6061-T6 

tubes and the inserts sold by sportplane/kitfox but I have not got 

to trying them yet. I was trying the process out on the portion of 

the insert that got cut out in forming the "fishmouth".  A second 

attempt this evening after scrubbing heavily with scotchbrite and 

warm alodine solution left only a very slight blue line where the 

sample broke the surface, nothing else.

Ceashman(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:32 am Post subject: revisit alodine subject

When treating bare aluminum the best practices are:

  

 If you are going to use Scotch Brite, only use the red color (item # 7447) This is manufactured with an aluminum oxide grit. If you use the grey (item # 7448) this is silicone carbide grit. The silicone carbide could break down and stick in the aluminum and cause corrosive stress points, very much I have been told like marking aluminum with a pencil. That is why we use felt tip pens when writing on bare aluminum.

  

 Use Alumiprep No 33 from Henkle corp. Follow the directions, You can dilute with water or can be used full strength. This will, as some have put it; super clean and effervesce on the surface of the aluminum. You can use the red Scotch Brite if you want to get particularly angry with what you are doing. 

 But using Scotch Brite with just plain water will make you angry because nothing much happens only that the Scotch Brite digs in the the soft alloy and you smear the grease and oils around, now pushing the oils into the base of the Scotch Brite scratches. Bad for anything going on later.

 A quick paper wipe dry and you are ready for the Alodine No 1001, the clear or Alodine No 1201 the gold color, also from Henkle corporation. Follow the instructions on the plastic container and you should be in good hands. 

 Some aluminum alloys accept the color change, to gold, very easily and quickly and some hardened alloys show very little color change when using the No 1201. Someone said that if you use RED Scotch Brite when washing with Alumiprep No 33 There is a noticeable color change, that is because you are breaking the surface of the hardened aluminum, Nothing too wrong only that you see more color. 

  

 The main point is you do not want water to bead up on the aluminum, you want it to sheet.

 Alumiprep No 33 is perfect for cleaning and brightening the aluminum. After this, use the Alodine, no problem if you don't get the gold discoloration. If the Alodine is unused and fresh it is going to protect and adhere to the aluminum. Making it ready for a subsequent coat of primer.

  

 Very important.

 If you use Alumiprep No 33 you should protect the aluminum as soon as possible. The base metal is super clean and can corrode easily.

  

 Eric. Atlanta GA

  [quote][b]

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