Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

701 vs ???

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

lrm(at)skyhawg.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:24 am Post subject: 701 vs ???

No "scotch-brite" again please.  My only point  was to point out that Chris basically put together others ideas into a very nice  package.  He is thought of by many on this list as the "Holly Man of  Airplanes" or "only living expert".  He is just a very smart man  who was wise enough to take a bunch of other peoples ideas and build a nice  airplane to make a living.  I wish I had done it.  Some of you seem to  think that if Chris says it, it must be right.  I really question that  train of thought.  There is absolutely nothing, I repeat absolutely,  that cannot be improved or changed.  I think I know the 701 as well as  most here and better than some and it has lots of areas that need  changing.  Let me rephrase that, that could use changing not necessarily  need changing.    

  

 And, you are right I disagree with you.  The  plane you are talking about is totally different than the 701, no two parts  interchange.  Everything is different, some look alike but basically it's  just another STOL.  You might as well say Chris took the plans for the  Fiesler Storch or the Helio Courier and changed them.  Well, he sorta  did!!!!!!!!!  But, so what!!!!

  

 Larry, N1345L, www.skyhawg.com

  

  

 ---

JohnDRead(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:28 pm Post subject: 701 vs ???

Here is my two cents worth, I think you are confusing "design" with  "style". STOL aircraft are not new as you have pointed out. Never the less Chris  Heintz designed, that's all the little bits in the detail drawings, which is NOT  style. The thread on removing the slats and adding VG's is downright dangerous.  If you study the drawings of the 701's airfoil you will notice that the profile  includes the outline of the slats. The slot in the wing is what creates the high  lift characteristic of the airfoil. Check out Abbot & Von Doenhoff for an  explanation of how slotted airfoils work. Vg's are useful however when added to  a "normal" airfoil and do help with helping the airflow over the wing to stay  attached, it this that helps the airfoil work better. I agree with you that  there are areas of any aircraft that COULD be improved check out the 172's  changes over the years. That the 701 has had so few iterations over a 20 year  life speaks volumes of how good the basic design, not "style", is. That is my  dollars worth, two cents was not enough!

  

 Regards, John Read - working on a CH701

  [quote][b]

taffy0687(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:59 am Post subject: 701 vs ???

John-- well said and I agree with you-----I don't understand how some folks can think slats can be REPLACED by VG's and not see the dangerous situation they are creating.  (my opinion)

  

 When I used the word "design", I meant it as:  "Chris designed the CH 701 and CH 601 XL" etc.  I din't mean he came up with the idea of stats, high lift wing etc.

  

 Happy building

  

 Fritz--601XL--90/90----Corvair

 do not archive

 ---

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject: 701 vs ???

You are right.  Slats and VGs do two different things. that is why the big jets have both.  Big jets act under diffent sets of aerodynamics than a plane designed to fly under 18,000 ft.

The slats allow for a more extreme pitch along with the 701's reverse foil tail.  The slat pushes the air over the main foil to create lift at an angle past normal wing stall, typicaly 15 degrees of pitch past line of air flow.  Well past what a VG can do.  VGs work to slow the bufet of the air over the wing, reducing stall, but hits a limit that a slat alows the wing to go well past.  



That is why they call it experimental.  My only hope is that they use sound research instead of the cut and chop and tape and lets see if it works.  My guess is they will have to modify the Horiz, stab to avoid extrem overpitch.  The VGs won't work in the realm of the LE Slat, and could induce a stall at take off, unless the nose is pitched forward after Vr.



What do I know, enough to be dangerous as my wife says.



Juan Vega

--

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:42 pm Post subject: 701 vs ???

the Slat does not create the high lift, the foil shape of the main wingdoes  look at the cord design. the slat force the air over the wing at extreme angles then is just the leading edge of the foil after that. If you want to create higher speed on the 701 slat design , look at a book on the pricipals of STOL.  One thing that can be does is a negative (positive degree) flap. Maule has done a fine job on their Positve flap for cruise design.  Would probably add the 10 mph you are looking for.  



Juan  Vega



--

pacificpainting(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:50 pm Post subject: 701 vs ???

I don't want to add fuel to the fire, but has anyone put VG's on the main 

wing and left the slats on? I don't know if this would even make any 

difference. This doesn't really pertain to me since I am building an 801 

according to plans. I'm just curious. Maybe someone has asked this before.



do not archive



Dave in Salem

801 with slats

---

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:40 pm Post subject: 701 vs ???

I tried adding reflex [ that is raising the flaps past their normal attitude]. The plane flies nose up and you actually lose some speed. At least my 801 does..

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net> wrote:

--> Zenith-List message posted by: Juan Vega <amyvega2005(at)earthlink.net>



the Slat does not create the high lift, the foil shape of the main wingdoes  look at the cord design. the slat force the air over the wing at extreme angles then is just the leading edge of the foil after that. If you want to create higher speed on the 701 slat design , look at a book on the pricipals of STOL.  One thing that can be does is a negative (positive degree) flap. Maule has done a fine job on their Positve flap for cruise design.  Would probably add the 10 mph you are looking for.  



Juan  Vega



--

NYTerminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:38 pm Post subject: 701 vs ???

Ben, 

 What kind of speed do you get??

  

 How many HP do you have strapped in there?

  

 Bob Spudis

  

  

 In a message dated 11/3/2006 9:41:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  n801bh(at)netzero.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I tried    adding reflex [ that is raising the flaps past their normal attitude]. The    plane flies nose up and you actually lose some speed. At least my 801    does..

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



	


 

  

  [quote][b]

n801bh(at)netzero.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:48 am Post subject: 701 vs ???

The 801` appears to suffer from the same fate as all the 601's. ZAC claims 10-15 mph higher cruise speeds then anybody seems to be able to derive. I can get 108 maybe in level flight and full throttle. That is using about 330 sea level HP. Up here at 7000+msl that relates to somewhere in the  270 range. Keep in mind the motor is VERY detuned to prevent the plane from making the lead story on the evening news. <G> The 801, and I am guessing the 701 too is VERY areodynamicly dirty so drag compounds at the higher speeds. For instance, on takeoff I am burning 16+ GPH, at cruise at 50% power I can run 88 mph(at) 5.9-6.3 GPH, Speed up just 8 mph to 95 and the thing burns 11+. I will trade that off by just leaving a few minutes earlier and running at the slower speed. With that all said I still LOVE my 801.. 

do not archive

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



-- NYTerminat(at)aol.com wrote:

  Ben, 

 What kind of speed do you get??

  

 How many HP do you have strapped in there?

  

 Bob Spudis

  

  

 In a message dated 11/3/2006 9:41:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, n801bh(at)netzero.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I tried adding reflex [ that is raising the flaps past their normal attitude]. The plane flies nose up and you actually lose some speed. At least my 801 does..

Ben Haas

N801BH

www.haaspowerair.com



	


 

  

[quote]



====================================

====================================

">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

====================================



[b]

nyterminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:03 pm Post subject: 701 vs ???

Thanks Ben. Somehow I was expecting you to have higher speeds. You are right that the drag increases that much more with speed. Seems like there should be a lot of drag clean up for the 701/801 that could be easily accomplished.

    

   Bob Spudis 

   N701ZX

   do not archive

    

  

 --

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Zenith-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum