Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

ADS-B

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

bicyclop(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:17 pm Post subject: ADS-B

I attended a lecture at AOPA convention given by the FAA subgroup that

is implementing ADS-B. According to these folks, the administrator has

committed the FAA to making it work all over the country. It'll take

years to do, but someday we'll be able to get inflight weather and

traffic displayed for free. At some point, maybe ten years from now, the

airborne component that broadcasts position and vector info will be

required to fly near big airports as transponders are now. Transponders

may or may not go away sometime later. They haven't figured it out. TIS

may or may not continue to be supported. I'm not going to be buying a

mode S transponder anytime soon. The other airborne component that

receives and displays uploaded info from the ground stations will be

optional.



Right now, the equipment is real ass expensive. Now that the FAA has

committed to it, more manufacturers will start to make equipment for it

and all these software folks will support it on their displays. Maybe

they'll get smart and come up with some sort of open architecture so the

receivers will interface with different brands of display equipment. It

should become more affordable as time goes by. XM weather is great, and

at $50/mo, not worth it on the left side of the Rockies, at least not to

me. The price of admission for ADS-B won't be cheap, but at least there

won't be a monthly fee on top of it. I'm waiting to see how it shakes

out.



Pax,



Ed Holyoke

nick(at)nickomalley.co.uk
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:42 am Post subject: ADS-B

Hi Ed,



Here is a link from a UK company, http://www.kineticavionics.co.uk/LAST.php



Who are making a GA ADSB unit, its still undergoing testing but may be of

interest to the list.



Regards

Nick



PS I am not affiliated in any way to Kinetic-Avionics, I did buy their

basestation unit, to pick up Aircraft with ADSB on board.



--

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:50 am Post subject: ADS-B

Ed Holyoke wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



I attended a lecture at AOPA convention given by the FAA subgroup that

is implementing ADS-B. According to these folks, the administrator has

committed the FAA to making it work all over the country. It'll take

years to do, but someday we'll be able to get inflight weather and

traffic displayed for free.



FWIW, I seem to remember that a Senator was trying to block the FAA from 
	


providing anything other than collision avoidance info.  Seems like one 

of the weather info providers is in his state, and the senator agreed 

that the Gov't was going to become a competitor and that might not be a 

good thing for the industry in his state.  I'm not hopeful that much 

'free' will remain when politics wrtaps it's arms around anything.

Linn

do not archive



 	  Quote: 	
		   At some point, maybe ten years from now, the

airborne component that broadcasts position and vector info will be

required to fly near big airports as transponders are now. Transponders

may or may not go away sometime later. They haven't figured it out. TIS

may or may not continue to be supported. I'm not going to be buying a

mode S transponder anytime soon. The other airborne component that

receives and displays uploaded info from the ground stations will be

optional.



Right now, the equipment is real ass expensive. Now that the FAA has

committed to it, more manufacturers will start to make equipment for it

and all these software folks will support it on their displays. Maybe

they'll get smart and come up with some sort of open architecture so the

receivers will interface with different brands of display equipment. It

should become more affordable as time goes by. XM weather is great, and

at $50/mo, not worth it on the left side of the Rockies, at least not to

me. The price of admission for ADS-B won't be cheap, but at least there

won't be a monthly fee on top of it. I'm waiting to see how it shakes

out.



Pax,



Ed Holyoke

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:26 am Post subject: ADS-B

Even if ADS-B is free, I'm betting money that Jeppesen will find a way

to charge for it.



Chuck Jensen

Do Not Archive 

--

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:57 am Post subject: ADS-B

I agree fully with this Linn.  I see it as another big opportunity for

"user fees".  Either fees comparable to WSI/XM to get weather from them,

or perhaps at some point having them subcontract their weather from

one of those 2, and charge a fee for it.  Either way, I doubt anything

but traffic avoidance would remain free.  For now I have the GTX-330

because the difference in price is just too little to pass on having

the next 10 years of TIS. ($1480 for the GTX-327 vs $3170 for the

GTX-330 at Stark) Not to mention this same transponder will be able to

be used for ADS-B most likely, but only as the radio transmitter portion

of it.   You are able to take ADS-B hardware and couple it to the

GTX-330 in the future, and get ADS-B through it....the 330 would then

just become a dumb transmitter of the digital data at that point.

The current TIS coverage isn't actually too bad in the large terminal

areas, and it's already saved me a couple possible problems in my

first hundred hours.  The phase out of TIS will be slow (10 years),

and the  phase in of ADS-B will also be slow.  And both of those things

can change based on FAA decisions and budgets, so for now TIS isn't

such a bad bet for current near-flying builders.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

linn Walters wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 Ed Holyoke wrote:

 

> 

>

> I attended a lecture at AOPA convention given by the FAA subgroup that

> is implementing ADS-B. According to these folks, the administrator has

> committed the FAA to making it work all over the country. It'll take

> years to do, but someday we'll be able to get inflight weather and

> traffic displayed for free.

>

 FWIW, I seem to remember that a Senator was trying to block the FAA from 

 providing anything other than collision avoidance info.  Seems like one 

 of the weather info providers is in his state, and the senator agreed 

 that the Gov't was going to become a competitor and that might not be a 

 good thing for the industry in his state.  I'm not hopeful that much 

 'free' will remain when politics wrtaps it's arms around anything.

 Linn

 do not archive

 

> At some point, maybe ten years from now, the

> airborne component that broadcasts position and vector info will be

> required to fly near big airports as transponders are now. Transponders

> may or may not go away sometime later. They haven't figured it out. TIS

> may or may not continue to be supported. I'm not going to be buying a

> mode S transponder anytime soon. The other airborne component that

> receives and displays uploaded info from the ground stations will be

> optional.

>

> Right now, the equipment is real ass expensive. Now that the FAA has

> committed to it, more manufacturers will start to make equipment for it

> and all these software folks will support it on their displays. Maybe

> they'll get smart and come up with some sort of open architecture so the

> receivers will interface with different brands of display equipment. It

> should become more affordable as time goes by. XM weather is great, and

> at $50/mo, not worth it on the left side of the Rockies, at least not to

> me. The price of admission for ADS-B won't be cheap, but at least there

> won't be a monthly fee on top of it. I'm waiting to see how it shakes

> out.

>

> Pax,

>

> Ed Holyoke

>

>  

>

bicyclop(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 10:29 am Post subject: ADS-B

The gvmt is supplying the weather data to XM and anybody else who wants

it in the first place. This data and the means of acquisition have

already been paid for by taxpayers. It is available to these same

taxpayers (pilots) for free from Duat(s), just not in flight. It is

available to current users of ADS-B on the east coast and in Alaska.

There is nothing to keep people from adding value to the data in terms

of delivery and display options and reselling it, but what your senator

is saying is that we should stifle dissemination of free data to prop up

private enterprise. One senator does not a consensus make. Write letters

to his office to try and convince him and/or vote him out. 



The FAA has a mandate to promote safety. How would this mandate be met

by denying timely weather data to pilots who don't subscribe to a pay

per view service when weather related accidents are still the leading

cause of fatalities? There will be a notice of proposed rulemaking and

comment period. Don't hold back when that occurs. 



Pax,



Ed Holyoke



--

Mark Phillips in TN

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia, TN

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:43 pm Post subject: ADS-B

In a message dated 11/12/2006 6:52:11 AM Central Standard Time, pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  the senator agreed 

that the Gov't was going to become a competitor and that might not be a 

good thing for the industry in his state. 	


 >>>

  

 Wasn't this the senator from PA by the name of Santorum?  Seems he will soon be out of his "job" at the expense of taxpayers and will likely see a major pay increase via the lobby industry- sadly, that's just the way it goes these daze.  No telling how much this will cost us now...

  

 Apologies for the editorial, but is seems there are no food sources safe from "politicians" anymore...

  

 Mark - do not archive

  [quote][b]

_________________
From The PossumWorks...

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:27 pm Post subject: ADS-B

The problem is a bit bigger than just denying free weather to ADS-B. The 

neo-cons within the current administration have been attempting to deny 

*all* free access to government weather & to ultimately turn over (read 

'give') gvmt weather satellites to private ownership.



Hopefully, with the upcoming changing of the guard in Congress, that 

won't happen.



Charlie



(BTW, I do find it interesting how we pilots are almost universally 

opposed to tax supported 'giveaways' until we start talking about 

aviation.    )



Ed Holyoke wrote:



[quote]



The gvmt is supplying the weather data to XM and anybody else who wants

it in the first place. This data and the means of acquisition have

already been paid for by taxpayers. It is available to these same

taxpayers (pilots) for free from Duat(s), just not in flight. It is

available to current users of ADS-B on the east coast and in Alaska.

There is nothing to keep people from adding value to the data in terms

of delivery and display options and reselling it, but what your senator

is saying is that we should stifle dissemination of free data to prop up

private enterprise. One senator does not a consensus make. Write letters

to his office to try and convince him and/or vote him out. 



The FAA has a mandate to promote safety. How would this mandate be met

by denying timely weather data to pilots who don't subscribe to a pay

per view service when weather related accidents are still the leading

cause of fatalities? There will be a notice of proposed rulemaking and

comment period. Don't hold back when that occurs. 



Pax,



Ed Holyoke



--

ktlkrn(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 6:14 am Post subject: ADS-B

I agree with Tim on this. The implementation of the  ADS-B will take considerable time, up to 10 years. Further the TIS system will  be active for years despite it being decommed in a few areas. And, I don't think  ADS-B will render all of the current transponders obsolete.

  

 When I was building and planning to use the Garmin  330S coupled with my Garmin 430 for traffic many thought I was wasting money.  Nothing could be farther from the truth. I did spend approximately $1800 more  for the 330S over the 327 but the cost/benefit ratio is there.

  

 My home airport is under the Class B of Phx Sky  Harbor. A lot is going on. Additionally, I'm only 5 miles from Chandler Airport  where there is a ton of training in both FW and helicopters. Much of this with  people who barely speak English and are not familiar with the area. The TIS has  been invaluable in avoiding traffic. There are times when when sunlight  conditions, haziness etc.... don't give you a good look out side. The TIS gives  you target distance, position, direction of travel, altitude above/below  you. With this you can usually spot traffic that you might not have otherwise  seen. Some too close for comfort.

  

 If you are in this phase of planning and live in an  area where you'd benefit definitely give it some thought. Money well spent.  Especially considering the overall cost of the project.

  

 Darwin N. Barrie

 Chandler AZ

 RV7 N717EE

   [quote][b]

rvbuilder(at)sausen.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:04 am Post subject: ADS-B

FWIW, the government is also supplying the data to Jepp at no charge.

We basically pay for packaging options.



Do not archive



--

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:08 pm Post subject: ADS-B

The data may be free, but there are quite a few errors in it when it  

is received by Jeppesen, and it costs a lot of money to pay the team  

of people to find and fix the errors.



It isn't reasonable to expect Jeppesen to provide the data for free,  

but it would be nice to have some competition.  They have competition  

for airline database suppliers, but there is no apparent competition  

at the GA level.



Kevin Horton



On 13 Nov 2006, at 12:04, RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:



[quote] 

 <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net>



 FWIW, the government is also supplying the data to Jepp at no charge.

 We basically pay for packaging options.



 Do not archive



 --

dan(at)rvproject.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:22 pm Post subject: ADS-B

 	  Quote: 	
		   It isn't reasonable to expect Jeppesen to provide the data for free,  

 but it would be nice to have some competition.  They have competition  

 for airline database suppliers, but there is no apparent competition  

 at the GA level.


	


Hmmmmmmmmm....  (hamster running on wheel in head)



do not archive

)_( Dan

RV-7 N714D "Priorities"

www.rvproject.com / www.weathermeister.com

khorton01(at)rogers.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:35 pm Post subject: ADS-B

On 13 Nov 2006, at 16:21, Dan Checkoway wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

> It isn't reasonable to expect Jeppesen to provide the data for  

> free,  but it would be nice to have some competition.  They have  

> competition  for airline database suppliers, but there is no  

> apparent competition  at the GA level.

 Hmmmmmmmmm....  (hamster running on wheel in head)

 do not archive

Track down a copy of RTCA DO-200A "Standards for Processing  

Aeronautical Data" before you get too excited (available from RTCA  

for only $135 - only a few minutes revenue from WeatherMeister  ).   

It describes the process that must be followed to verify data  

integrity and prepare data for distribution.  It must be followed for  

suppliers of data for "certified" databases - i.e. ones that are  

approved for IFR enroute, terminal and approach navigation.  You have  

to ensure that every waypoint and leg in the database is correct and  

up-to-date, etc.  Then you need to reformat the data for each  

product, keeping in mind any memory limitations of various hardware  

revisions.  I am not an expert in this area, but I suspect that  

several full time employees would be required to offer a competing  

service to Jeppesen, if you targeted IFR navigation.

If you only target the VFR market, for the amateur-built crowd,  

people will expect you to give the product away for free, no matter  

how much effort it takes to develop it, nor how much bandwidth, etc  

is consumed to support it.

Kevin Horton         RV-8 (finishing kit)

Ottawa, Canada

http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:37 pm Post subject: ADS-B

Yes!!! I would rather pay the subscription fees to ANYONE but Jeppesen.



Chuck Jensen

Do Not Archive 

--

Tim(at)MyRV10.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:22 pm Post subject: ADS-B

Amen....just had my run-in with their dense customer service

today in fact.  If Dan could get a replacement database

that works for all garmin products, I'd be a subscriber

for sure.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Chuck Jensen wrote:

[quote] 

 

 Yes!!! I would rather pay the subscription fees to ANYONE but Jeppesen.

 

 Chuck Jensen

 Do Not Archive 

 

 

 --

n616tb(at)btsapps.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:39 pm Post subject: ADS-B

Don't forget the garmin (Apollo GX) products.  We are the stepchild product

line.

No, do not archive



[quote] --

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum