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FAA aircraft chart for download

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84KF
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:51 am Post subject: FAA aircraft chart for download

To all readers,



The attached FAA charts  in .jpeg format, showing what aircraft sportpilots may operate under their .pilot pilot privileges is being provided here. 

 

   Please comment on accuracy and  the ramification of this information in a professional manner, leaving out personal insults and childish taunts.

Do not break the thread. Post replies to this topic only, donâ€™t start a new thread to express your view. This will avoid the clutter on the main page and keep the conversation very selectable  and isolated.  Donâ€™t treat the board\list like a Instant Message service, reply at the last post in the original topic and maintain continuity.



Talk among yourselves, I will not get involved.

Steve

fed register chart 2.jpg

Description:

FAA chart

Filesize:

227.29 KB

Viewed:

492 Time(s)

propellerdesign(at)tele2.
Guest

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:47 am Post subject: FAA aircraft chart for download

We don't have sport pilot here,

  

 So, I have to ask what does § 1.1 say?

  

 Jan

 [quote]   ---

84KF
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:59 pm Post subject: Re: FAA aircraft chart for download

(two days later...)

Jan, 

    There seems to be a lack of response to your question. This is due to the common and contagious infliction known as â€œFoot in Mouth â€œ disease, the result of which is extreme embarrassment, and the  sudden urge to avoid further inflammation and discomfort from speaking out.

    1.1,   is FAR 1.1 which contains  the FAAâ€™s definitions as to be applied to specific word, of groups of words, to help clarify the content of a statement. They are non-negotiable. 

    In this case, the FAA (the chart) is allowing any Small aircraft, that is, any aircraft 12,500 lbs or less, to attempt to meet the definition of â€œlight-sport aircraftâ€  Maybe they will, maybe they wonâ€™t.   (12,500lbs  is the cutoff between Small aircraft and Large aircraft. You must apply the definition, and the weight determination formula that is applicable and found in another FAA regulatory document to see if your particular aircraft is eligible to be operated under sport pilot privileges. 

  The chart is showing that the potential, or certificated, maximum weight of the aircraft is not a disqualification, and confirms that the words  â€œmaximum takeoff weightâ€,  as used in the 1.1 definition  is the sum of conditions that include â€¦.the empty weight of the aircraft, the weight of the total fuel capacity, and the weight of the pilot , and passenger if applicable, and whatever baggage you intend to carry in the aircraft. Nothing more, nothing less.  

steve

michaelgibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:59 am Post subject: FAA aircraft chart for download

Steve sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		   The chart is showing that the potential, or certificated, maximum weight

 of the aircraft is not a disqualification, and confirms that the words

 maximum takeoff weight, as used in the 1.1 definition is the sum of

 conditions that include .the empty weight of the aircraft, the weight of the

 total fuel capacity, and the weight of the pilot , and passenger if applicable,

 and whatever baggage you intend to carry in the aircraft.


	


Steve, you have repeatedly asked responders for references to the FARs in contesting your notions.  I have wasted a considerable amount of my time trying to substantiate this nonsense.  FAR 1.1 says, in part:



"Light-sport aircraft means an aircraft, other than a helicopter or powered-lift that, since its original certification, has continued to meet the following: 

(1) A maximum takeoff weight of not more than-- ...

(ii) 1,320 pounds (600 kilograms) for aircraft not intended for operation on water;..."



Apparently, your confusion comes from the phrase "maximum takeoff weight."  Your challenge is to produce the FAR that defines maximum takeoff weight.  The previous references you have provided are NOT found in the FARs, they are part of the COMMENTARY the FAA provided in response to public COMMENT on the proposed light-sport ruling.  Show us the FAR that DEFINES the phrase "maximum takeoff weight."  I was unable to locate such a definition.  There is a definition for "maximum certificated takeoff weight" in 14 CFR Ch. II, ss294.1, (f), but it does not support your claim: "Maximum certificated takeoff weight means the maximum takeoff weight authorized by the terms of the aircraft airworthiness certificate. This weight may be found in the airplane operating record or in the airplane flight manual that is incorporated by regulation into the airworthiness certificate."



I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on television, but I would not be surprised if you incurred some liability if someone acts on your interpretation of the light-sport regulations and is subsequently sanctioned by the FAA.



Geez, here I am ignoring my own advice to just let this topic die.  :-p



Mike G.

N728KF

84KF
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 1:47 am Post subject: Re: FAA aircraft chart for download

Federal Register Information

Federal Register: July 27, 2004 (Volume 69, Number 143)

Page 44771-44882

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

Federal Aviation Administration

14 CFR Parts 1, 21, 43, 45, 61, 65, and 91

[Docket No. FAA-2001-11133; Amendment No. 1-53, 21-85, 43-99, 45-24, 61-110, 

65-45, 91-282 

RIN 2120-AH19



Changes   (start at 44791



Exact quote, pg.44793, cut and pasted here...



"Paragraph (1) Maximum Certificated

Takeoff Weight

Some commenters stated that lacking

a definition of maximum takeoff weight,

aircraft with fairly high performance

characteristics could meet the definition

of light-sport aircraft by limiting the

approved weight and payload of the

airplane. The FAA considers this a valid

concern and has provided some

additional constraints on the weight as

detailed below. The maximum weight of

a light-sport aircraft is the sum of:

(1) Aircraft empty weight;

(2) Weight of the passenger for each

seat installed;

(3) Baggage allowance for each

passenger; and

(4) Full fuel, including a minimum of

the half-hour fuel reserve required for

day visual flight rules in Â§ 91.151(a)(1)"



+ chart (at) 44793     

..

eskflyer(at)lvcisp.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:15 am Post subject: FAA aircraft chart for download

And what this means is if the aircraft has a certified max takeoff weight of 

1320 for land plane or 1430 for a floats planethen it can be flown as a 

E-LSA, S-LSA, This goes for certified aircraft as well if they meet the MAX 

Takeoff weight as provided by the manufacturer. if it is 1325 for a land 

plane , or 1435 for a seaplane ,pounds Certified on the certificate then it 

will not be able to be flown as a LSA aircraft period .

This cannot be construed any other way period .



Fly safe fly low fly slow fly fun fly KITFOX

John Perry



DO NOT ARCHIVE

84KF
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:18 am Post subject: Re: FAA aircraft chart for download

In the original proposal:



"Paragraph (1) Maximum Certificated 

Takeoff Weightâ€



Was changed to  read 



â€œmaximum takeoff weightâ€   in the final rule.



And you have been told why by the FAA.



Gentlemen, this  post concerns the supporting chart. Do not avoid that issue

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:06 am Post subject: FAA aircraft chart for download

Mike,  I frankly wish Steve would reread and act on one of his recent posts 

when he said,  (snip) "This is my last reply to any of the issues I 

presented for comment and discussion".



Steve, enough!!  If someone wants to proceed with this thread, please take 

it off list.



The problem as I see it, when someone has totally destroyed his credibility 

on any issue by continued unrelenting argument, it will likely effect his 

credibility on most other Kitfox related issues he might care to comment on.



Lowell



---

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:15 am Post subject: FAA aircraft chart for download

At 12:57 AM 11/12/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Geez, here I am ignoring my own advice to just let this topic die.


	


Mike. I'm holding you personally responsible for all of Steve's subsequent 

responses.  (Thanks for the definition, though, it adds a little clarity.)

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.



Do not archive

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

cliffh(at)outdrs.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:53 pm Post subject: FAA aircraft chart for download

Thank you Lowell.



Floran H.

---

84KF
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: FAA aircraft chart for download

Kitfox-List Usage Guidelines 

By:

Matt Dralle 

Matronics Email List Administrator 



â€œ- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something 

to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I 

agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent 

to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.â€



â€œFeel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone 

polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack 

other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously 

controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that 

will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.â€

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Using current information and guidelines is important on many issues it would seem.

Donâ€™t worry about  â€œhurt feelingsâ€,   Sticks and stones will break my bonesâ€¦.etc etc.

steve

wingnut

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 356

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: FAA aircraft chart for download

 	  84KF wrote: 	
		  

    There seems to be a lack of response to your question. This is due to the common and contagious infliction known as â€œFoot in Mouth â€œ disease, the result of which is extreme embarrassment, and the  sudden urge to avoid further inflammation and discomfort from speaking out. 	




A couple of posts later:



 	  84KF wrote: 	
		  

Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone 

polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack 

other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously 

controversial issue.

84KF
Guest

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: FAA aircraft chart for download

Ok.. Ya got me there. I humbly apoligize.



Is there nothing to be said about the FAA chart though? 

That's the point of the original post on this topic.

I really would like to get some opinions on how you see it.

Steve

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 8:36 am Post subject: FAA aircraft chart for download

Steve sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Federal Register: July 27, 2004 (Volume 69, Number 143) Page 44771-44882...


	


The Federal Register is NOT the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), 

where the FARs live.  Where is a definition of "maximum takeoff 

weight" in the FARs?



Guy sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Mike. I'm holding you personally responsible for all of Steve's 

subsequent responses.  (Thanks for the definition, though, it 

adds a little clarity.)


	


Ouch!  Yep, you're right.  



Mike G.

N728KF

Bob

Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Damascus, Maryland, USA

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: Re: FAA aircraft chart for download

Steve -

Itâ€™s lunch and Iâ€™m going to answer this once, but agree with Lowell that you said youâ€™d drop this.  



There once was a lot less definition regarding experimental aircraft certification and the passage that you cite comes from those early days.  In the 1950s you could get an experimental into the air with very minimal paperwork, but your Kitfox was designed LONG after that time.  The passage you cite is based on the following phrase from the Federal Register:  "lacking a definition of maximum takeoff weight.â€  This passage refers to these old exceptions, such as a nasty-flying old replica of a WWI fighter I know of.  Or a classic Formula One airframe without a hot-rod engine.  Itâ€™s easy to understand why the FAA didnâ€™t want a Sport Pilot trying to fly either of those.



For anything since those early days and that limiting passage, the FAA Application for Airworthiness (Form 8130-6, http://forms.faa.gov/forms/faa8130-6d.pdf) is the certification basis for the 8130-7 Airworthiness Certificate that is in your airplane. The bottom section of 8130-6 contains the required sign-offs for the airworthiness documentation.  The block contains the sign-off that the airplane actually has weight and balance documentation, which obviously includes a statement of gross weight.  Your 8130-7 came with the spelled-out operating limitations and those directly or indirectly cite your W&B limits.  There are other ways to get to the same point through Part 21.190(b)(4)(i) and Part 91, which also say that certification of a LSA must include â€œThe aircraft's operating instructions,â€ again, from the bottom of the 8130-6.  If you exceed that gross weight and get ramp checked, you will be cited for violating FAR 91.9 as a minimum.



With respect to defining â€œmaximum takeoff weight,â€  I used the word â€œgrossâ€ above because it is the most commonly found word, but your POH may use the term â€œmaximum allowableâ€ or something similar.  The reason that the FAA occasionally uses the passage â€œmaximum takeoff weightâ€ is not because you might want to reduce your takeoff weight, so you leave the kitchen sink at home.  Itâ€™s because many airplanes can take off heavier than they are allowed to land.  However, these are typically in the transport class and again the requirements are covered by the limits spelled out in their W&B documentation.

 

People have repeatedly and correctly told you (including citing the EAA synopsis), that you could initially certificate the airplane for less than it was designed for and be at LSA weight, but once certificated, the FAA will not let you re-define the weight.  Hereâ€™s an FAA presentation from Sun-N-Fun this year that says the same at least twice: https://www.redstonemwr.com/PUBLICPDF/flying/LSAAirworthiness.pdf



I will not debate or respond further.  Since you are in a Detroit suburb, nobody on this list has supported you, and youâ€™ve been asked to drop it, I ask that all further discussion of your interpretations be with an airworthiness inspector at the Detroit FSDO at (734) 487-7222.



Bob

_________________
Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay.

84KF
Guest

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:13 am Post subject: Re: FAA aircraft chart for download

Â§ 21.190   Issue of a special airworthiness certificate for a light-sport category aircraft



Good,,,,, cept't  that't has nothing to do with a Amateur-built airworthiness certificate issued under 

 21.191   Experimental certificates

 g) Operating amateur-built aircraft. Operating an aircraft the major portion of which has been fabricated and assembled by persons who undertook the construction project solely for their own education or recreation. 



We are not LSA compliant, just trying to meet the drfinition in 1.1



BIG big big difference. Don't mix the apples with the oranges.

 http://forms.faa.gov/forms/faa8130-6d.pdf 

Better look at this again..... And put your mark in the Amateur-built expeimental  ( 2 ) box, not the Special Airworthiness ELSA or SLSA box.



   "This passage refers to these old exceptions"



Kindly show yhat to me sir, please. Show me. Can't.



"With respect to defining â€œmaximum takeoff weight,â€ I used the word â€œgrossâ€ "

Use ANY words YOU want, that will confuse others further.



"Since you are in a Detroit suburb, nobody on this list has supported you"



Excuse Me?? Care to expand on that statement?



Again....., What is the opinion of the chart?



BTW, this is a forum, not a "club". Sorry you don't approve of fact finding and discussion. 

steve

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