Matronics Email Lists :: View topic

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Patterns

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

grabo172

Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Beaver, OH

Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:18 am Post subject: Patterns

I usually don't say much on here, but being a CFI, I have to pipe in...

 

 The FAA recommends (per the AIM section 4-3-3) that a traffic pattern be between 600 -1500' AGL.  It depends on the airplane you are flying.  I typically fly my patter at 800' in both GA and my Kolb.  On climb out I teach and I personally turn to crosswind at 300' below pattern altitude or the end of the runway, whichever is later.  (I get to pattern altitude before the end of the runway in my Kolb, but don't get to 300' below until past the runway in GA).

 

 Here is the pattern section of the AIM...

 

 

 

FIG 4-3-2   

Traffic Pattern Operations

 Single Runway 

 

 [img]cid:part1.04070009.05080201(at)sc.rr.com[/img]

   

EXAMPLE-

 Key to traffic pattern operations

 

   1. Enter pattern in level flight, abeam the midpoint of the runway, at pattern altitude. (1,000' AGL is recommended pattern altitude unless established otherwise. . .)

 

 2. Maintain pattern altitude until abeam approach end of the landing runway on downwind leg.

 

 3. Complete turn to final at least 1/4 mile from the runway.

 

 4. Continue straight ahead until beyond departure end of runway.

 

 5. If remaining in the traffic pattern, commence turn to crosswind leg beyond the departure end of the runway within 300 feet of pattern altitude.

 

 6. If departing the traffic pattern, continue straight out, or exit with a 45 degree turn (to the left when in a left-hand traffic pattern; to the right when in a right-hand traffic pattern) beyond the departure end of the runway, after reaching pattern altitude.

 

 7. Do not overshoot final or continue on a track which will penetrate the final approach of the parallel runway.

 

 8. Do not continue on a track which will penetrate the departure path of the parallel runway. -Erik Grabowski

 CFI/CFII

 Kolb Firestar N197BG

 

 robert bean wrote: [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net> (slyck(at)frontiernet.net)   

   

 Rick, I wonder too, how many will continue on the same as usual.   

 They may find some problems with that approach,  some may elect to   

 drop out of the sport.   

   

 That said,  the flavor of your neighborhood and/or airport will also   

 effect your type of flying.  Busy airport,  adherence is wise and safe.   

 My strip is quite close to but legal to use near a class C airport so I   

 fly my pattern 600' agl to avoid problems.  Been that way for 35 years.   

   

 If you have a 10,000 acre spread in Montana,  buy whatever you want   

 and fly it anyway you want, screw the laws.  (as long as you stay near home)   

   

 BB  do not archive   

 On 18, Nov 2006, at 11:38 AM, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:   

   

   [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard & Martha Neilsen" <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net> (NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net)     

     

 John/All     

     

 When I first started flying I flew a Weedhopper, it was a ultralight because it was capable of being foot launched and landed. Later the FAA got very liberal and defined ultralights by part 103 which most of us at that time figured was too heavy, fast etc. When ultralights got popular people were getting killed. The FAA allowed the use of two place ultralights to save lives. For a short time people bought these two place airplanes and used them for training. It has now gotten sooo.... bad that people feel they have the right to fly anything short of a 172 without a pilots license. The general public, most pilots and even police officers think these big airplanes are ultralights. With the final dates for the implementation of the sport pilot coming up I assume that the FAA is gearing up for a crack down on all those illegal airplanes. I see a number of our group getting their licenses and this is a very good thing. If you are one that hasn't started on your license, well it would have been easer if your took advantage of the grandfather options but it isn't too late. If you plan to continue flying with out a license don't complain if you get slammed with a big penalty. The penalty might include a restriction on a future license.     

     

 Also John remember we fly our experimental Kolbs into Oshkosh as ultralights and land at the "ultralight strip"     

     

 I will get off my soapbox and duck behind a fire proof  wall to avoid the flames and yes Do Not Archive     

     

 Rick Neilsen     

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIc     

     

 ---

F0403002.gif

Description:

Filesize:

158.17 KB

Viewed:

395 Time(s)

_________________
-Erik Grabowski
N?????
CFI/CFII/LS-I

possums(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:26 pm Post subject: Patterns

Our airport has an "Ultralight" pattern different from

the GA pattern.  Stay below 600 ft AGL, shorter turns,

inside of GA planes, use the middle half of the runway, etc.



Cartersville VPC field elevation is 759 MSL.

UL pattern is 1,300 ft MSL.



Guess old dogs can learn 'new  tricks.



http://www.georgiasportflyers.com/pages/patterns.htm

Arksey(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:41 pm Post subject: Patterns

 

 Eric,

    thanks for posting the pattern diagram...I agree  when operating out of public airports...but at a private field just do what is  safer depending on approach terrain and departure terrain and areas for  successful forced landings if required. I like to have the altitude to make the  field if  the engine quits. Barn yard logic or common sense seems a good  thing to apply..   yep my 2 cents worth.

  

 jim swan firestar ll michigan

  

 do not archive

  [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:27 pm Post subject: Patterns

| UL pattern is 1,300 ft MSL.

| 

| Guess old dogs can learn 'new  tricks.

| 

| http://www.georgiasportflyers.com/pages/patterns.htm

 



Thanks Stan:



I like that UL Pattern.



Well, hell,.................I like Carterville.  



john h

mkIII



PS:  Official Possum.  



DO NOT ARCHIVE

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

grabo172

Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Beaver, OH

Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: Patterns

You're welcome for the diagram...  Of course that's for any standard airport...  I think that UL patter from the other post is a good example of what we would be expected to do in our planes...



Those who land at other than a standard airport of course have to modify the standard pattern to fit terrain and field length and so on. 



Speaking of...  I'm curious because this is something that I'm wanting to learn how to do... when you all do land wherever, such as a creek bank or sand bar or cow pasture, do you generally know the owners of the land or know the public places where you won't bother anyone?



Every once in a while I see a nice place that I'd like to stop by, land, and see on the ground but never do because I'd hate to get in someone's land and have them call the police or something...

_________________
-Erik Grabowski
N?????
CFI/CFII/LS-I

possums(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject: Patterns

At 07:53 PM 11/18/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  nd at other than a standard airport of course have to modify the 

standard pattern to fit terrain and field length and so on.



Speaking of...  I'm curious because this is something that I'm 

wanting to learn how to do... when you all do land wherever, such as 

a creek bank or sand bar or cow pasture, do you generally know the 

owners of the land or know the public places where you won't bother anyone?



--------

-Erik Grabowski


	


My old Firestar had a large decal on the boom tube.

People would look - but never seemed to bother me.

Worked pretty good when I had my helmet camera on.

Not that I would suggest this to anyone else.

me.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

66.77 KB

Viewed:

404 Time(s)

bill_joe(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject: Patterns

Well if any of you guys visit the airport I fly from it is best to 

stick to regulations. Pattern altitude 1000 FT AGL , We have some jet 

traffic in and out of here, we have a Sheriff Department flying out of here, 

National Guard Helicopter base at the field, the Coast guard use it also 

with their C-130 and some kind of big Helicopter, Helicopter ambulance 

service ,several Ultralites and Exp at the field and we all get along just 

fine. The field is un uncontrolled, Unicom only 123.00.  The Helicopters fly 

500 ft AGL and fly right  hand pattern which is standard , except the 

Sheriff and Medical copters and they are pretty much from all direction but 

they hold 500 ft AGL. Light twins fly the pattern at 1500 ft AGL ,of course 

the faster aircraft fly a larger pattern than we do and we also identify 

yourself rather slow aircraft or Ultralite. We have an ILS system on runway 

9 and we know if there is someone out there shooting  an ILS approach 

because they will report in 8 to 10 miles out . So far we have had only 

complaint from one guy and he is a C172 owner and one of our EAA club 

members , but he is coming around. The only bad thing about flying at an 

airport like this is you get spoiled. Our runways are concrete 7000 X 150 

and 5000 X 150 . This airport was built to fly the B-29 and B-25 out of.

        Stop in and come over for a coffee anytime. I live right across the 

road from the airport.   352-754-2780 Take Care



                             Do Not Archive

Hernando_County.gif

Description:

Filesize:

78.09 KB

Viewed:

339 Time(s)

Steve Boetto

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 364

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:07 am Post subject: Patterns

To All,

 Changing from Experimental Land Plane to UL Floatplane has been a lot of  fun. Take off and Landing takes on a new perspective. Every approach is  different. Most approaches are a 90 to 180 degree steep descending spiral and  much like John's Cow Field your landing spot is subject to change second to  second.

 Give it a try sometime

  

 Steve

 FF007

  [quote][b]

jimhefner

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 91
Location: Tucson, AZ

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:49 am Post subject: Re: Patterns

My GA CFI is from the old school and wants me to fly 1 mile finals.... with stabilized approach.   He also stresses no turns until 500' altitude gain and wants me to be at pattern alt (1000' at 57AZ) by the time I turn downwind if staying in the pattern, so it requires long legs at the climb rate of a 150.  I was used to turning base 45o beyond the end of the runway and flying a 500' tight pattern in the Firefly so this has been a big adjustment for me.  Sometimes I do the 45o pattern approach for practice (when Bill's not along   ) and still like that better than the 1 mile final.  I find it easier to repeat at unfamiliar airports and causes fewer delays in the pattern than the long approaches.



At E77 where I kept the Firefly they also have two different pattern altitudes.... 500' for ultralights and gyrocopters and 1000' for GA.  At 57AZ where the 150 is parked, they have left hand traffic at 1000' for GA and right hand traffic at 500' for ultralights.... the only ultralights allowed at this private airport are 3 trikes owned by a wealthy internet software mogul that built a mega house there and has a lot of clout.  I heard from a friend at the airport yesterday that this guy's son and instructor were killed recently in NM in a trike accident, but haven't confirmed that. 



I agree with John Hauck's statement about planes not stalling due to altitude, but rather airspeed.  I'll add attitude to that since attitude can change the stall speed dramatically.... therefore only shallow turns on climbout unless you have lots of extra power.  912S's have that but 582's don't on a MK III near gross weight.

_________________
Jim Hefner
Tucson, AZ
Do Not Archive

Russ Kinne

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 182

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:05 am Post subject: Patterns

Erik

FWIW I've landed on  lots of off-airport sites, never had a problem,  

usually invited in for coffee, a meal, or even overnite. Used to land  

on the beaches in SC  (at low tide!) & have lunch,. But got concerned  

that some overzealous sort would fly by, radio the CG or FAA that a  

plane was down & they should come out and rescue me. Seems that  

everyone wants to be  a rescuer, whether needed or not.

You should have landowner's permission, but in an  emergency anything  

goes. If you get carb ice you may have to land. Worst case is that  

they might make you tow it out rather than fly it out. I've oinly  

heard of this happening at Disney World FL, where a pilot landed at  

the facility's privately-owned airport.

We used to land on an iced-over lake & have breakfast. Complicated  

question as to who owned the "land". Finally the FAA saw a picture of  

7 aircraft, including  a light twin, outside the shoreside  

restaurant! -- they came down with a forceful but unofficial message  

"CUT IT OUT!!" So we did.

Used to be on long XC flites you could land in a pasture, climb the  

bob-wire fence & have a good lunch in a highway-side restaurant, or  

even get a can of gas at the station. Probably too many regs now.

All in all, it doesn't seem to be much of a problem.

Good luck,

do not archive



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 You're welcome for the diagram...  Of course that's for any  

 standard airport...  I think that UL patter from the other post is  

 a good example of what we would be expected to do in our planes...



 Those who land at other than a standard airport of course have to  

 modify the standard pattern to fit terrain and field length and so on.



 Speaking of...  I'm curious because this is something that I'm  

 wanting to learn how to do... when you all do land wherever, such  

 as a creek bank or sand bar or cow pasture, do you generally know  

 the owners of the land or know the public places where you won't  

 bother anyone?



 Every once in a while I see a nice place that I'd like to stop by,  

 land, and see on the ground but never do because I'd hate to get in  

 someone's land and have them call the police or something...



 --------

 -Erik Grabowski

 Kolb Firestar N197BG

 CFI/CFII





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=75496#75496

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:31 am Post subject: Patterns

I think that is called a "Hobbs meter pattern."



When I was a controller at Albany, GA, we had an instructor that preferred 

that sort of pattern, we also had a cropduster school at the field, and the 

duster instructors took the attitude that if your downwind or base legs got 

further from the runway than gliding distance, you were an idiot.



So occasionally we had things like "Stearman 59Charlie, you're number two 

following the Skipper." "Roger tower, 59Charlie following the Skipper doing 

the bomber pattern." "Tower, this is Skipper 8Uniform Sierra, we are flying 

a normal pattern!" "Tower this is Stearman 59Charlie, tell the Skipper that 

the bomber base is east of town, and that's where they normally fly that 

sort of pattern." etc.



Since the instructor in the Skipper really was an idiot, we gave the 

cropduster instructors a fairly free hand to rag him...

Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

jimhefner

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 91
Location: Tucson, AZ

Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: Patterns

Richard, personally I think the cropduster instructors are right about patterns.   My CFI might be thinking I will go on to get instrument rated where these long approaches are normal.... I have no such desires.  What will be interesting to understand is what the Practical test examiner will be expecting to see (or not wanting to see...).  They do want to see stabilized approaches, but I don't think they need to be 1 mile to demonstrate that.  Once I tell him my CFI's name, I'm sure he will understand.  Just before my solo I went up with a different CFI and he taught different technique on several points, including patterns, but he also knew what my CFI wants to see.  Once I get my private ticket I'll do a few things different than what I'm being taught.  Tighter patterns will be one.

_________________
Jim Hefner
Tucson, AZ
Do Not Archive

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kolb-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum