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bob(at)flyboybob.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:26 pm Post subject: B&C

I just tried to order an LRC3-14 linear voltage regulator from B&C.  I

figured that I would go for the battery temperature option to give my

battery the best attention that I could.  The guys at B&C said that you only

need the battery temperature option if you are somewhere like the north

pole.  I don't get it, doesn't the battery need a different level of charge

from summer to winter?  I don't understand why B&C is reluctant to sell the

battery temperature option on their LRC3-14 voltage regulater.  Anybody

understand the physics of that recomendation?



Regards,



Bob Lee

N52BL  KR2

Suwanee, GA

91% done only 65% to go!

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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:51 am Post subject: B&C

At 01:21 PM 11/21/2006 -0500, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



I just tried to order an LRC3-14 linear voltage regulator from B&C.  I

figured that I would go for the battery temperature option to give my

battery the best attention that I could.  The guys at B&C said that you only

need the battery temperature option if you are somewhere like the north

pole.  I don't get it, doesn't the battery need a different level of charge

from summer to winter?  I don't understand why B&C is reluctant to sell the

battery temperature option on their LRC3-14 voltage regulater.  Anybody

understand the physics of that recomendation?


	


   It's a matter of return on investment for the $time$

   required to incorporate any particular feature. If you

   study the manuals for batteries, you'll find prescriptions

   for optimal battery performance based on their laboratory

   tests and the considered opinions of their staff.



   Not all manufacturer's have the same recommendations. This

   has sparked discussions here on the List about whether or not

   any particular brand or technology of battery is best served

   by setting a regulator at 14.1 or 14.3 volts, etc.



   However, the manner in which we use batteries is a far

   cry from the manner in which they are tested for "optimal"

   performance. Further, I've never seen a study by manufacturers

   or others that quantify the penalties of operating a battery

   in less-than optimal conditions. Would a 14.5 volt setting

   cause me to replace a battery one month too soon?



   I suspect that the data we'd like to see will never

   be forthcoming mostly because departures from optimized

   operating conditions in service are (1) of so little

   influence as to be practical considerations and/or

   (2) so much trouble to accomplish that return on investment

   is poor.



   I designed the temperature compensator probe for the

   LR series regulators to address a profound performance

   issue. One of our customers frequently traveled long

   distances at high cruising altitudes that cold-soaked

   his battery. After the third or forth fuel stop, his

   battery would not vigorously crank the engine. It was

   so cold that the nominal 14.2 volt set-point was not

   recharging the battery.



   The thrust of B&C's recommendations take this

   experience into consideration such that they do not

   recommend the temperature compensator unless you

   EXPECT or have EXPERIENCED battery failure-to-

   perform based on temperature effects. A very rare

   condition in the OBAM aircraft community.



   Further, any fussing one might choose to do over

   seasonally adjusting their bus voltage is problematic

   as to whether any increased battery performance or

   longevity will be perceived.



   Bob . . .

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bob(at)flyboybob.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:18 am Post subject: B&C

BobK wrote:



<<



   The thrust of B&C's recommendations take this

   experience into consideration such that they do not

   recommend the temperature compensator unless you

   EXPECT or have EXPERIENCED battery failure-to-

   perform based on temperature effects. A very rare

   condition in the OBAM aircraft community.



   Further, any fussing one might choose to do over

   seasonally adjusting their bus voltage is problematic

   as to whether any increased battery performance or

   longevity will be perceived.



   Bob . . .

 	  Quote: 	
		  >


	




There are conditions other than "battery failure" that make the use of the

temperature sensor a good idea.  During winter time flying the battery will

be cold-soaked at the time that it needs to do it's heaviest job, crank the

engine.  This puts the battery at an even lower state of charge.  The most

important use of the battery is to power the flight essential loads under

alternator failure conditions.  Since I have a composite aircraft I have

decided to use a linear regulator.  The B&C LRC3-14 already has the

temperature sence capability built into it.  So for the price of a couple of

batteries I can add the sensor and use this included feature.



Would it work ok without the sensor, sure, but I think it will give me an

advantage when the battery is cold to get to full charge quicker.  The proof

will be in monitoring bus voltage vs temperature to see if anything changes.



Thanks for the information Bob, even if I do go the opposite way you

indicated!



Regards,



Bob Lee

N52BL  KR2

Suwanee, GA

91% done only 65% to go!

- The Matronics AeroElectric-List Email Forum -

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nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:40 am Post subject: B&C

At 09:16 AM 11/22/2006 -0500, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



BobK wrote:



<<



    The thrust of B&C's recommendations take this

    experience into consideration such that they do not

    recommend the temperature compensator unless you

    EXPECT or have EXPERIENCED battery failure-to-

    perform based on temperature effects. A very rare

    condition in the OBAM aircraft community.



    Further, any fussing one might choose to do over

    seasonally adjusting their bus voltage is problematic

    as to whether any increased battery performance or

    longevity will be perceived.



    Bob . . .

 >>

There are conditions other than "battery failure" that make the use of the

temperature sensor a good idea.  During winter time flying the battery will

be cold-soaked at the time that it needs to do it's heaviest job, crank the

engine.  This puts the battery at an even lower state of charge.  The most

important use of the battery is to power the flight essential loads under

alternator failure conditions.  Since I have a composite aircraft I have

decided to use a linear regulator.  The B&C LRC3-14 already has the

temperature sence capability built into it.  So for the price of a couple of

batteries I can add the sensor and use this included feature.



Would it work ok without the sensor, sure, but I think it will give me an

advantage when the battery is cold to get to full charge quicker.  The proof

will be in monitoring bus voltage vs temperature to see if anything changes.



Thanks for the information Bob, even if I do go the opposite way you

indicated!


	


   How is it opposite? You have stated a perceived value

   in temperature compensating your alternator output based

   on battery temperature. You've correctly cited the mechanisms

   by which some advantages may be gained when temperature

   compensation is added. What's missing is quantification of

   your assertions. "Get to full charge quicker" is un-quantified.



   I would suggest it's useful to know the return on investment

   for "the price of a couple of batteries". Keep in mind that

   aviation has stumbled along with lead-acid batteries for

   nearly 100 years. I've flown in the winter and had to wrestle

   with battery limitations for getting engines started like

   tens of thousands of pilots before me. Recall further that

   if you've just beat the crap out of a battery getting the engine

   started that internal losses in the battery are high and it

   will warm up considerably by the time you got the engine started

   and it's ready to accept a charge . . .



   I'm not trying to discourage you from making the jump to

   temperature compensated charging.  I'll suggest that

   having a second alternator on the vacuum pump pad is a

   100% sure bet for quantifying your ability to operate the airplane

   with a main alternator crapped while adding temperature

   compensation only begs more questions than it answers.

   Questions that can only be answered by extensive experimentation

   and study of results.



   Bob . . .

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bob(at)flyboybob.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:33 am Post subject: B&C

BobK wrote:



   I'm not trying to discourage you from making the jump to

   temperature compensated charging.



     Good, it sounded to me you were making a case supporting B&C against

this option



   I'll suggest that having a second alternator on the vacuum pump pad is a

   100% sure bet for quantifying your ability to operate the airplane

   with a main alternator crapped



     Agreed,  I've got an aux alternator installed



   while adding temperature

   compensation only begs more questions than it answers.

   Questions that can only be answered by extensive experimentation

   and study of results.



     Now there's the catch-22, if I don't install the temp sensor we will

never have the data to know if I should.  As it turns out it's a gut

decision because you can't have data ahead to know what is the best thing to

do.  I'm looking at this as a chance to improve the recovery time of the

battery to full charge.  I really don't care about long term battery

effects.  Battery only operation is the last resort for my electrically

dependant engine if some failure or failures prevent alternator operation

for both the primary and aux alternators.   In addition there is the time

between the detection of low voltage and implementation of the low voltage

check list.  The better shape the battery is in the less stress there is

during this phase of emergency flight operation.  I don't ever want to get

to step 6 of the low voltage check list:  (Step 6:  If low voltage still

exists after turning on the aux alternator LAND NOW)!  If I do get there I

want every advantage stacked in my favor to streatch the battery operation

for that flight.



According to BobK's law #1, Things WILL break.  My adaptation of that law is

that:  Things WILL break in ways you haven't anticipated.  That's why I want

to have a better battery even though I have two alternators.  I figure

battery state with temp sense will be at worst the same and at best better

than with out temp sense.  So I'll do without one $100 hamburger and add the

temp sensor.  Data to follow!



   Bob . . .



      Me too!

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