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Tank Sloshing

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colindu

Joined: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 1
Location: Sydney - Australia

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:49 pm Post subject: Tank Sloshing

Hi Folks,



I'm about to fabric the wings on our KFIV, so before I do, I'd like to know what the latest reccomendation is for sloshing the tanks, especially with regard to the advent of ethanol. Non-ethanol fuel is standard here, but I'm sure it will develop into an issue sooner rather than later, so I really want to make the right choice now.



Any words of wisdom will be most welcome.



Regards

Colin Durey

Sydney

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_________________
Colin Durey
Sydney
+61-418-677073

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:31 pm Post subject: Tank Sloshing

Hi Colin,



Answers vary and it seems all have a point of truth to

them.  One thing I haven't heard on the list though is

that aluminum parts don't handle well the corrosion

caused by water held by ethenol.  My alum carb pits

from it and I think aluminum fuel lines may develop

leaks too.



I know that if you use electrical tape to "protect" an

alum line, it will corrode under the tape.  I suspect

we will hear of corroded lines in the future from this

new fuel too.



I used an alchohol resistant slosh for my tanks.  So

far, so good.



Kurt S.  S-5



--- colindu <colin(at)ptcsg.com> wrote:

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi Folks,

 

 I'm about to fabric the wings on our KFIV, so before

 I do, I'd like to know what the latest

 reccomendation is for sloshing the tanks, especially

 with regard to the advent of ethanol. Non-ethanol

 fuel is standard here, but I'm sure it will develop

 into an issue sooner rather than later, so I really

 want to make the right choice now.

 

 Any words of wisdom will be most welcome.

 

 Regards

 Colin Durey

 Sydney


	




 

Have a burning question?  

Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know.

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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:35 am Post subject: Tank Sloshing

List



I have been running some tests on the alcohol issue.  The result is

preliminary,  as it has only been going on since October 1.



FYI, the purpose of the testing is to find a coating for a balsa wood float

used in a low fuel sensor.



The test consists of a series of test tubes with floats coated with various

coatings and separated from the glass walls of the test tubes with a guide

wire.  The guide wire prevents surface tension - floats against the glass 

from masking the floats

ability to sink in the event it loses buoyancy.



This is the set-up:



Two floats coated with vinyl ester resin.

Two floats coated with vinyl ester resin that had been mixed in a plastic

cup attacked by the resin to see if the cup somehow degraded the resin.

Two floats coated with Kreem

One float coated with a fuel tank sealer from JC Whitney



One of each float is submerged in our version of California pump fuel which

I have measured as containing 6-7% ethanol.  One of each float is submerged

in 97% ethanol (denatured alcohol).  The Lone JC Whitney coated float is in

mogas.



For the first two weeks, on a daily basis, I took the floats up to a virtual 

14,000 ft in a

bell jar to simulate flying to altitude to see if the coatings were breaking

down and allowing the floats to de-gas.  since then the altitude test has

been conducted about weekly.



The result of the tests so far is as follows.



Early on, one of the Kreem coated floats degassed under vacuum suggesting a

breach of the coating.  The air bubble was large - 1/16" and was on the end

of the float.  Past experience suggests that if the coating fails large 

bubbles from

the float interior will appear on the surface.



After 30 days, I removed the vinyl ester coated floats from the 97% ethanol

and mogas for observation.  The submersion had dulled the surface from it's

original shiny appearance on both floats.  The surface looked etched.  When

returned to the test tube, They resumed their normal floating

condition.  When I took the floats to the 14,000 ft. altitude, both floats

began to degass with what seemed to be thousands of microscopic, very

difficult to see bubbles. I saw no difference in the two mixes of resin.



To date, all Kreem coated floats have retained their luster in both the

mogas and the alcohol.



Since the early bubble seen on one Kreem Float, no evidence of coating

breach has been seen on any of the floats when taken to the 14,000 ft.

pressure in the vacuum chamber.



Discussion:



When brushing on the coating, it is more difficult to get full coverage with

Kreem if there is any oughness or pitting as was sometimes found on the end

grain balsa. This may be due to the very rapid evaporation of the MEK 

thinner.

Fuel tank coating, I suspect would be more effective as it is a closed 

system and the

MEK would be in a saturated environment and evaporation would be minimal

until the tank is vented.  The surface of the Kreem retained it's luster and 

is intact

and with the exception of one faulty coating, Kreem seems to have worked 

well

to date.



The "Gas Tank Sealant" from JC Whitney has reacted identically to the Kreem.

The only difference between the two so far is that Kreem is a little 

yellower in color

out of the can while the JC Whitney product is snow white,



With the loss of surface luster, I concluded that the vinyl ester resin had

been attacked by the alcohol (fuel) in both solutions and portions had been

dissolved.  I am not a chemist, but I think  when the resin cures it does

not result in a homogeneous solid, but is more like a sponge with areas of

hard resin with interspersed pockets of a more vulnerable material.  I think

the softer material dissolved out into the alcohol / fuel.  Then when dried,

air diffused into the porous surface and degassed as the pressure in the

bell jar was reduced.  Vinyl ester resins are mixed similarly to polyester

resins with the use of MEKP and proportioned to determine curing times.

Small areas of roughness from the brush application were present indicating

that the resin was not being dissolved en masse.



 	  Quote: 	
		  From this and past list discussions, my present conclusion is if you can get

the Kreem to stick and fill all the pinholes it is a good surface
	


preparation for alcohol resistence.



Lowell



---

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Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:45 am Post subject: Tank Sloshing

At 07:34 AM 12/8/2006, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I have been running some tests on the alcohol issue.  The result is

preliminary,  as it has only been going on since October 1.


	


Good work Lowell! Thanks for doing this. No help to me now, but it will be 

in the archives when I want it. Thanks again.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.



Do not archive

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_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

colind

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Sydney, Australia

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:18 am Post subject: Tank Sloshing

Lowell,



Thank you very much for the detailed response. I'll go with either the

Kreem or the JC Whitnbey product. I'm not sure who handles these products

in Australia, but will investigate. Once again, thanks for your help.



Regads



Colin Durey

Sydney

Lowell Fitt said:

[quote] 



 List



 I have been running some tests on the alcohol issue.  The result is

 preliminary,  as it has only been going on since October 1.



 FYI, the purpose of the testing is to find a coating for a balsa wood

 float

 used in a low fuel sensor.



 The test consists of a series of test tubes with floats coated with

 various

 coatings and separated from the glass walls of the test tubes with a guide

 wire.  The guide wire prevents surface tension - floats against the glass

 from masking the floats

 ability to sink in the event it loses buoyancy.



 This is the set-up:



 Two floats coated with vinyl ester resin.

 Two floats coated with vinyl ester resin that had been mixed in a plastic

 cup attacked by the resin to see if the cup somehow degraded the resin.

 Two floats coated with Kreem

 One float coated with a fuel tank sealer from JC Whitney



 One of each float is submerged in our version of California pump fuel

 which

 I have measured as containing 6-7% ethanol.  One of each float is

 submerged

 in 97% ethanol (denatured alcohol).  The Lone JC Whitney coated float is

 in

 mogas.



 For the first two weeks, on a daily basis, I took the floats up to a

 virtual

 14,000 ft in a

 bell jar to simulate flying to altitude to see if the coatings were

 breaking

 down and allowing the floats to de-gas.  since then the altitude test has

 been conducted about weekly.



 The result of the tests so far is as follows.



 Early on, one of the Kreem coated floats degassed under vacuum suggesting

 a

 breach of the coating.  The air bubble was large - 1/16" and was on the

 end

 of the float.  Past experience suggests that if the coating fails large

 bubbles from

 the float interior will appear on the surface.



 After 30 days, I removed the vinyl ester coated floats from the 97%

 ethanol

 and mogas for observation.  The submersion had dulled the surface from

 it's

 original shiny appearance on both floats.  The surface looked etched.

 When

 returned to the test tube, They resumed their normal floating

 condition.  When I took the floats to the 14,000 ft. altitude, both floats

 began to degass with what seemed to be thousands of microscopic, very

 difficult to see bubbles. I saw no difference in the two mixes of resin.



 To date, all Kreem coated floats have retained their luster in both the

 mogas and the alcohol.



 Since the early bubble seen on one Kreem Float, no evidence of coating

 breach has been seen on any of the floats when taken to the 14,000 ft.

 pressure in the vacuum chamber.



 Discussion:



 When brushing on the coating, it is more difficult to get full coverage

 with

 Kreem if there is any oughness or pitting as was sometimes found on the

 end

 grain balsa. This may be due to the very rapid evaporation of the MEK

 thinner.

 Fuel tank coating, I suspect would be more effective as it is a closed

 system and the

 MEK would be in a saturated environment and evaporation would be minimal

 until the tank is vented.  The surface of the Kreem retained it's luster

 and

 is intact

 and with the exception of one faulty coating, Kreem seems to have worked

 well

 to date.



 The "Gas Tank Sealant" from JC Whitney has reacted identically to the

 Kreem.

 The only difference between the two so far is that Kreem is a little

 yellower in color

 out of the can while the JC Whitney product is snow white,



 With the loss of surface luster, I concluded that the vinyl ester resin

 had

 been attacked by the alcohol (fuel) in both solutions and portions had

 been

 dissolved.  I am not a chemist, but I think  when the resin cures it does

 not result in a homogeneous solid, but is more like a sponge with areas of

 hard resin with interspersed pockets of a more vulnerable material.  I

 think

 the softer material dissolved out into the alcohol / fuel.  Then when

 dried,

 air diffused into the porous surface and degassed as the pressure in the

 bell jar was reduced.  Vinyl ester resins are mixed similarly to polyester

 resins with the use of MEKP and proportioned to determine curing times.

 Small areas of roughness from the brush application were present

 indicating

 that the resin was not being dissolved en masse.



>From this and past list discussions, my present conclusion is if you can

> get

 the Kreem to stick and fill all the pinholes it is a good surface

 preparation for alcohol resistence.



 Lowell



 ---

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_________________
Colin Durey
Sydney
+61-418-677073

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:50 am Post subject: Tank Sloshing

On Dec 10, 2006, at 1:17 PM, Colin Durey wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Thank you very much for the detailed response.


	


Isn't Lowell a great guy? You see, at this very moment, the Jabiru list 

argue about all the stuff that should, or should not be done after the 

last service bulletin concerning the flywheel. Everybody gives his 

opinion and it's very confusing. Lowell doesn't give his opinion about 

tank sloshing, he gets to work and come with some neat results. Facts! 

That's great!



Cheers,

Michel



do not archive

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Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

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