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Cabin Heater Questions

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Nick(at)Scholtes1.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:03 am Post subject: Cabin Heater Questions

KitFoxers,



I have a couple of questions about cabin heaters for a KitFox.  I'm in 

the process of purchasing a KitFox, which is located in Florida, and 

flying it home here to the arctic (Chicago -- brrrrrrrrr!!!).  The 

KitFox in question is a Model IV Speedster with a 912UL, and it has no 

heater.



But it was originally equipped with a carb heater.  The owner decided 

that carb heat wasn't required anymore, and removed the air hoses and 

simply put air cleaners on the carb.  But, the heat "muff" and the carb 

heat box are still there.



One question is, if I duct the heat out of the carb heat box to holes 

that I drill in the firewall, will that be enough heat to be 

"comfortable" in a Chicago winter?



My other question revolves around installing a water heater.  It seems 

to me that there are two ways to plumb in the water heater.  One is to 

plumb it "in series" with the radiator, the other is to plumb it "in 

parallel".  If it is plumbed "in series" and before the radiator, water 

that is at it's hottest gets to the heater core.  But, there is no way 

to put a valve in-line to "throttle" the water flow.  If the heater core 

is placed "in parallel" with the radiator, then it can be throttled, but 

it seems as though not much hot water would get to it, with the water 

choosing to flow through the less-restrictive radiator instead. 



Anyway, any advice on how to plumb in a heater core?



Thanks!



Nick Scholtes

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:20 am Post subject: Re: Cabin Heater Questions

I put a heater system on my 912ul kitfox4.  The way I did it was to take a funnel and put it behind the radiator and then put a hose on the back of that and run it into the cabin.  Works good down to 30 degrees.  When it gets that cold you also need to restrict the radiator, currently I'm using duct tape, but I want to change to something better, still thinking on that one.  



With this in mind, I want to pull off the radiator where the hottest spot is, currently I'm pulling off the center, I want to move the funnel to the side that has the hottest water, meaning the inlet of the radiator.  Does anybody know the direction of flow of the radiator.  Does it come in on the copilot side or the pilot side???



What's great about using this is there is no drain on the electrical system and no weight gain.



My next project is to remove all the cowlings and put a plastic wrap around everying for the cockpit to keep out air leaks, will find out possibly tonight on that one.

kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:14 pm Post subject: Cabin Heater Questions

I installed a heater core  with an electric fan works great to well below

zero if the cabin is sealed up well.



--

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:16 pm Post subject: Cabin Heater Questions

For the radiator heater Plumb it in parallel with the radiator then all you

have to do is to put a throttling valve in series with the radiator to force

hot water through the heater core.  You may also want to put a throttling

valve in series with the heater core to eliminate heat during those hot

Illinois summer days.  Just make sure only one throttle is closed at a time

and you never completely close the valve on the radiator.



I was in Rockford over 40 yr. ago For the first annual EAA fly in....  I

remember getting off the plane at O'Hare and having the heat hit me like a

brick wall!



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: Cabin Heater Questions

mine would work great if everything is sealed up.  The thing is, I thought of the hot water heater inside, but I didn't like the idea of all the junk that is involved.  Plus, my electrical is tapped out.  I fly with a stereo, transponder, and my favorite: wellon strobes, the best they have.  those suckers are so bright they can be seen from far away.  Usually I can be seen before I ever see the other plane.  



When I put my hand on the hose (from the hose coming off the radiator) it is always a good temp, just get so much leaks from the cowl and such, hopefully my wrap will work out.



Another plus from this is you can install it in about 15 minutes with, oil funnel, wire ties, and about 2 feet of 1 1/2 hose.  instant low cost heat.

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:56 pm Post subject: Cabin Heater Questions

Nick,



One thought regarding using the heat muff.  The traditional heater sold by 

Skystar recirculated the air through the heater core.  Mine is similar to 

what you are describing and it uses ram outside air across the core for 

heat.  If it is 30° outside it may warm the air to 90°.  If it is 20° it may 

warm it to 80°, etc.  It will take the chill off my feet, but I still wear 

warm clothing.  Another guy with the SS heater flys in his shirtsleeves.



Lowell



---

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:16 pm Post subject: Cabin Heater Questions

I like your idea better Lowell.  If we come to a

survival situation, it will be with what we have on

and possibly with injuries.  Wear what you wear

outside and you will be better prepared.



Kurt S.  S-5



--- Lowell Fitt <lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Nick,

 ...............

 It will take the chill off my feet, but I still

 wear warm clothing.  Another guy with the SS heater

 flys in his shirtsleeves.

 

 Lowell

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:33 am Post subject: Cabin Heater Questions

The best thing to have is survival training.  Warm clothing in cold climes

is step one.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 7:50 am Post subject: Cabin Heater Questions

Kurt,



I had this conversation once with Burt Garrison.  He flew the last 

operational mission of the SR-71, then went on to fly the U-2 before 

retirement and a position with SouthWest.   I borrowed his hangar at Lincoln 

Harder near Beal AFB when I did my first flight there in 1998.  He said he 

flew over the Sierras one beautiful clear winter day in a friends Luscombe 

and it wasn't until he got home that he thought of his mistake.  Since then 

when I fly over rough winter terrain, I take my little tent, sleeping bag, 

parka. etc.



I got some good advice from Burt, by just listening to his story.



Lowell



---

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:09 am Post subject: Cabin Heater Questions

A personal locator  beacon with GPS is a good idea for fliers or hunters or 

really just about anyone heading into the wilderness, They'll find you a lot 

faster if they know where you are.

---

RRTRACK(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:18 am Post subject: Cabin Heater Questions

I would just want to caution any one taking air from behind the radiator  for cabin heat to make sure the exhaust is not part of the mix. I have wanted to  try this myself but have to tape up most of the radiator in winter to keep the  engine temps up.

 Mark

 Wisconsin

  [quote][b]

kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:33 am Post subject: Re: Cabin Heater Questions

first off, you don't pull air off the strip stream of the exhaust.  I have the 912 and the radiator is away from the exhaust.  If you are worried about it, put in a co meter.



I put in my wrap yesterday and wow, what difference. No air in the cockpit at all, real nice.

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:41 am Post subject: Cabin Heater Questions

There is a start up company - HighWing LLC  (Yes I am involved)  that has a 

radiator shutter kit for the Skystar supplied radiator for the 912 series 

engines.  It is an easy assembly and attached to the radiator with Nylon Tie 

wraps.  It requires a Button Lock dash control like the A-700 from ACS for 

operation.



For other radiators, an exact dimensional drawing with location of the inlet 

and outlet accurately depicted and we will make up jigs from that.



Attached - two photos.  one installed in a Speedster radiator shroud and one 

uninstalled.



If anyone is interested drop an off list note.



Lowell

---

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dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:45 pm Post subject: Cabin Heater Questions

Hey Mike,



You put in a wrap ?  what is that ?  I assume a heat muff?



I  pull heat from my radiator with no exhaust at all but I also havc an 

extention on mine as you can see in those videos I posted.   But my Heat 

muff gives the most  heat . I can fly at  0 F and keep cabin temp of over 50 

F on cloudy days.  Much warmer on sunny days.  My record is  over 2 hour x 

country at  - 25 C  and never wore gloves entire trip  till i landed on Lake 

at flyin.

Dave



---

_________________
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
Hundreds of Kitfox Movies
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kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:57 am Post subject: Re: Cabin Heater Questions

No, much better.  You can't have heat inside unless you can keep it in.  You remove the cowls, get some plastic, I used the stuff you buy for your home windows, it comes in a roll and has a backing, thick stuff.  Next you wrap between the windscreen and the firewall, I taped mine at the edges with clear duct tape and then use a razor blade and x'd the openings for the cam locks, sealed all the air leaks I was getting. Then you put the cowls back on, nobody can see the plastic, but you know it's there.

av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:14 am Post subject: Cabin Heater Questions

Nick,



In response to your earlier question about cabin heat, I installed a heater 

core with a fan controlled by an automotive water shutoff valve in my 912ul 

Model IV-1200.  It works good as long as you keep your CHT's around 200 

degrees, and keep the cabin well sealed.  I don't have any photos convenient 

but would be happy to take some if you'd like to see more of the 

installation.



BUT if it were me, I'd utilize the carb heat muff before going through all 

the bother with the heater core setup.  It would be easier to do, less 

expensive, lighter, and most likely provide even better heat than the heater 

core setup.  But I doubt using the carb heat system as it is (by letting the 

hot air just rise up into a scat tube that would go to the cabin) would 

provide very little heat. So here's what I think one needs to do to create a 

very good heat system using just the existing carb heat muff;



I haven't done it yet on my airplane (I too have the removed carb heat setup 

you do), but my plan is to use the old carb heat muff off the left front 

exhaust header by attaching a scat tube to the top of it and then attaching 

it near the gearbox inside the cowl so it gets a direct prop blast of 

pressurized air.  I'd then fabricate from a piece of aluminum or stainless a 

four or five inch extension to the bottom of the muff, with a round outlet 

on it to attach a piece of scat tubing that will then go to a controllable 

firewall heater air valve.   End result, a simple, light, inexpensive cabin 

heat system that is controllable from the instrument panel.  I'm confident 

this setup will provide very good heat, as a Rans I fly has a similar setup 

and it gets very warm.  The exhaust temps coming right off that cylinder 

head should be nice and toasty.  Plus, with no welds anywhere in the area, 

there is much less risk of exhaust fumes in the cabin.  BTW, don't forget to 

stuff the heat muff with some good stainless or brass scouring pads.  They 

retain heat and slow down the air movement, providing significantly more 

heat than a system without any.



If after that I find that I need (or maybe just want) even more cabin heat, 

I would then make a heat muff to fit around my muffler, and connect the carb 

heat muff scat tube to that.  Then run two short scat tubes to airboxes on 

the firewall (so you now have two controllable heat vents.  Your wife will 

love it....)  You will probably want to play with scouring pad use in this 

system, as you shouldn't slow down the air so much that you cause excessive 

exhaust pipe temps. (I'm going to guess you could just remove the pads from 

the header pipe muff, but keeping them in the muffler muff.  You will 

essentially have preheated air entering the muffler, and being heated again 

before entering the cabin).  This double heat muff system should allow you 

to fly in the coldest of conditions.



And then if all else fails, install that heater core system as well for a 

"three heat system".  But bear in mind, should your heater ever fail in a 

full heat mode, you had better be ready to fly home naked      You will 

have one hot cabin!



I've attached a quick drawing I did that should make this all more 

understandable, hopefully.



Paul Seehafer

Central Wisconsin

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kitfoxmike

Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373

Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:43 am Post subject: Re: Cabin Heater Questions

I thought the same idea, but instead of pulling air from the outside, plumb air from the inside and put a little fan from a computer into the hose to bring you air, that way it can get hot faster and better.  just my thought on the inlet air.

johnmay

Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 5
Location: Kalamazoo, Mi.

Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: Cabin Heater Questions

Nick,

  I am developing a heating system that uses hand warmers which when opened and exposed to the air heat up to about 125 degrees F. I have calculated that it will take about 12 of these wrapped around and duct taped to a scat tube stuffed with pot scrubbers. It should last long enough for a 10 hour flight.

  DO NOT ARCHIVE

  John May

  SW Michigan

 [quote][b]

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