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av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:00 am Post subject: Older Kitfox cruise speeds

Happy Holidays Everyone!



I was just looking through some old articles and thought I'd share this one 

with the group.



On page 2 I've underlined in red ink what Denney Aircraft did to change the 

wing incidence of the model 2's (and 3's as I recall).  I thought I'd bring 

this up because over the years I've noticed owners of older Kitfoxes puzzled 

why their cruise is so much slower than the newer Kitfoxes, and in many 

cases slower than Avid Flyers.  In my opinion this article pretty much 

explains it.



Sure, the newer Kitfox (Riblett) airfoil helps to make the newer Kitfoxes 

cruise faster, but even if you were to put a new Riblett wing on an older 

Kitfox, my guess is you wouldn't see a lot of cruise speed increase, because 

there is just too much positive wing incidence causing a lot of drag. 

 (fwiw - I believe part of the Model IV mods made were to put the wing 

incidence back where it belonged.  Consequently, all newer Kitfoxes have 

reduced wing incidence angles compared to the 2's and 3's).  Hopefully this 

information might keep a few owners of the older airplanes from going crazy 

trying to "clean up" their airplanes in the hope of attaining the higher 

cruise speeds.



 In defense of the change Denney made back then, newer Kitfoxes will most 

likely never be able to take off as short, fly as slow, or land as short as 

the older airplanes.  So all that positive wing incidence helps in all those 

areas.  Everything's a trade-off ...



As a side note, does anyone see anything wrong with the airplane on the 

cover?  Look close, as there is an obvious problem with it (experts usually 

laugh when they see this picture).



Paul Seehafer

Model IV-1200 Amphib

Central Wisconsin

Mod_2_in_Experiment_March_1989,_pg_1.JPG

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rexinator(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:15 am Post subject: Older Kitfox cruise speeds

Looks like a asymmetrical wing strut modification.      Not a popular 

option.

Rex

Colorado

do not archive



Paul Seehafer wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Happy Holidays Everyone!



 <SNIPPED>

 As a side note, does anyone see anything wrong with the airplane on 

 the cover?  Look close, as there is an obvious problem with it 

 (experts usually laugh when they see this picture).

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:01 am Post subject: Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds

I don't see any aft shock cords on the skis.

Tom Jones, skiplane wannabe

akflyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:38 am Post subject: Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds

looks like a photochop to me...

The photo looks like the plane is in the air, but the skis are not in the correct position for flying... the ski tips are low and the rear limiter cables are sagging suggesting that it is sitting  on the ground.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:39 am Post subject: Older Kitfox cruise speeds

I have a couple of questions... The answer to one depends on the other.



Where did they ever get a flash strong enough to light the plane from the

bottom .....or was he flying inverted, possibly vertical ???  



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:25 am Post subject: Older Kitfox cruise speeds

BINGO!!  Leni wins the prize!  (ahem,,, we'll be mailing that out right 

away....just send $54.95 to cover the shipping costs Leni)  (chuckle)



Ski tips should always be up about 15 degrees in flight.  Obviously in this 

case they didn't understand how to rig ski cabling, as the front cable needs 

to much shorter.  In flight the rear cable should be taught, and the spring 

bungee on the front taking up the slack in the loose front cables that is 

needed to let the ski sit level on the ground when the tail is down.  In 

other words, the skis as they are could easily catch a tip when landing in 

anything less than three point landing.  Catching a tip while landing could 

be disastrous.   Rigging skis is a very important thing to get right as a 

ski can also make for a large control surface (besides catching a tip 

because it is rigged down too far).  Imagine if one ski cable bungee broke, 

so one ski was up 15 degrees, and the other was down say 40 degrees.  I've 

never flown one like that, but you had better hope you have enough control 

authority from the rest of the control surfaces to stop the large downward 

spiral dive you are otherwise going to enter.  Don't let me scare you about 

flying with skis now.  Just make sure they are rigged right.  This factory 

demonstrator made a very good example of how to NEVER rig a ski on an 

aircraft.



It was the things like this that used to cause so much riff between Avid and 

Kitfox.  I remember the Avid clan having a good laugh over that one 

(remember, Avid was flying skis on their planes before Kitfox was even in 

business.  So all Kitfox would have had to do back then was to look at 

theirs to get it right...)  I don't mean to start any hot discussions about 

which is airplane is better, because they are both marvelous airplanes, and 

the Kitfox in particular has evolved rather nicely (I know I have both). 

But the little things like this make it very obvious which company had the 

real designer.



Paul

---

av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:59 am Post subject: Older Kitfox cruise speeds

Noel,



I think it was the snow acting as the worlds best flash reflector...



Paul



do not archive

---

akflyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:43 am Post subject: Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds

Also, the front should have a limiter cable incase the bungee breaks for the very purpose of keeping the skis from rolling into a excessive nose down attitude.  I have had it happen on RC models.  Last year I had my 1/6th scale Beaver (22# and an 8' wing span) on Skis and caught the tip on takeoff.  I had limiter calbes, but it still alowed the ski to rotate to far.  It was a bit of a handful when I tried to slow it down for landing.. as the rudder lost effectiveness at low speeds.  I was able to go into the programing in the air and go to 140% throw on the rudder and then made a safe landing.  I would not want to do it a real plane..

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:50 pm Post subject: Older Kitfox cruise speeds

On Dec 20, 2006, at 6:38 PM, akflyer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   the ski tips are low and the rear limiter cables are sagging 

 suggesting that it is sitting  on the ground.


	


Exactly! If my skis were like that in the air, I'd have a serious 

problem.



Michel



do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:20 pm Post subject: Older Kitfox cruise speeds

So how did they get the plane lit from the bottom?  

Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:29 pm Post subject: Older Kitfox cruise speeds

Disregard my last post.... The picture looked like something manipulated.

The bungees on the tips of the skis seemed stretched which made me think the

picture was actually taken on the ground.  Note the alignment of the ski

with the tail wheel.



My best guess now is they rigged the skis with the tail down on the hangar

floor....  



BTW I have a set of those composite skis.  The previous owner of my plane

even made a set or removable rear tips so the plane can easily be towed

backwards by a ski-doo.  I was warned to always remove the rear tips before

flight.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 2:40 pm Post subject: Older Kitfox cruise speeds

Those pics just show that they wer rigged with too long of cable on front 

and the airflow is pushing them down.

Not a good thing at all.

Dave

---

_________________
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
Hundreds of Kitfox Movies
Most viewed Kitfox on youtube
Most popular on youtube
Highest rated on youtube

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 2:50 pm Post subject: Older Kitfox cruise speeds

The shadows look acceptable to me, Noel...it looks like a low winter  

sun shot to me. Look at the shadows on the ground...they are all  

being caused by the same apparent light source. If not the low sun,  

then probably a strobe or single light source of some sort.



Lynn

On Dec 20, 2006, at 12:38 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:



[quote] 



 I have a couple of questions... The answer to one depends on the  

 other.



 Where did they ever get a flash strong enough to light the plane  

 from the

 bottom .....or was he flying inverted, possibly vertical ???



 Noel



> --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

eskflyer(at)lvcisp.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:28 pm Post subject: Older Kitfox cruise speeds

NO they are not to long when you are on the ground they have to be in that 

angle . Supposed to have a strong enough bungy on the front to pull them up 

when in flight .



John Perry

---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:08 pm Post subject: Older Kitfox cruise speeds

John ,



When on the ground , my bungees are stretched.

When in the air the bugee pulls the ski until the safety cable on rear 

become tight unless of course the front is too long which makes it loose and 

the ariflow pushes the tip down.

You can see mine here in the video from 10 days ago 

http://www.cfisher.com/kitfox/

And my rear safety cable could afford to be about 1 inch longer.



If you need some pics, just let me know and I will post them.



Dave

---

akflyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: Older Kitfox cruise speeds

Dave,



John is painfully aware of how skis are rigged... hey John how many them have we done ????? PA-18's, PA-12's, 180's, 185's, 206's... the list is long but distinguished...



The video was nice, but looks like the skis could be a little bigger for playing in deep powder.

The boards I had on my 12 were larger than a set I put on a buddies 180... I kicked his butt in the powder...

eskflyer(at)lvcisp.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:20 pm Post subject: Older Kitfox cruise speeds

UHHHHH Dave

when sitting flat on ground with taildragger your skis should be straight 

out level in front of you on the ground. Look at the pic that is how the ski 

is flying . You then install your front safety cables to linit them to this 

spot . now you lift the tail and to until the plane is in level flight mode 

. and then add 2-3 inches up on tail . now place your rear limit safety 

cables . now put your bungees on and make shure they are strong enough to 

pull the skis up in the front in flight .  I have done MANNNNNNNY instals on 

aircraft . If you read my last post slowly you will see this is what is said 

in much shorter post .



Fly safe fly low fly slow

OHH yeah MERRY CHRISTMAS almost

John Perry

---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:45 am Post subject: Older Kitfox cruise speeds

What are  you talking about ?



Mine are rigged properly-  are you disputing that they are not ?



I answered a question for Tom Jones that asked why there was no bungee on 

the aft end of the ski.



I put up a video and it flys and works fine. If you need pics I can post 

them as well.

Perhaps you could post a video and pics if you are disputing this.



Thanks



Dave



PS   Here links to the factual SKi video  http://www.cfisher.com/kitfox/

        and the factual info on NGK plugs  http://www.cfisher.com/ngk/  that 

was backed up by Bob Robertson the Rotax guru.



---

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:48 am Post subject: Older Kitfox cruise speeds

Shouldn´t the cables have enough slack to allow for

going over slight hills, or will the skis flex enough

for that without over-stressing?  After all, these are

often used off airport.



Kurt S.



--- john perry <eskflyer(at)lvcisp.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   UHHHHH Dave

 when sitting flat on ground with taildragger your

 skis should be straight 

 out level in front of you on the ground. Look at the

 pic that is how the ski 

 is flying . You then install your front safety

 cables to linit them to this ............

 spot .


	


__________________________________________________

eskflyer(at)lvcisp.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:12 am Post subject: Older Kitfox cruise speeds

Dave did I say yours are rigged wrong if your asking this ? then i guess 

the answer must be yes in your mind . As for you plugging in your video clip 

all the time its getting tiresome  ,yes its great you can do videos and i 

enjoy watching them usually once is enough. Now if youll read your own post 

you that you sent you wrote my NAME at the top of your post  so I really 

dont think you know who you were posting to . IF YOU WILL READ MY POST AND 

LOOK AT THE PIC  you will see what I am talking about   .Now enough on the 

skis

  The SPARK PLUG

I have talked with NGK corporate and the head of the technical department 

several times now on this matter .

The NGK plug that rotax buys from them is the B8ES Stock # 3683, BR8ES Stock 

#3961 theya re snet to rotax in nice yellow and white boxes with a X thru a 

ultralight and a airplane . Rotax takes these out and sned them back out in 

nice foam packaging to take the liability off of NGK . IF YOU WILL READ MY 

PREVIOUS POSTS you will see I said use the solid cap plugs and gave the 

correct stock number from NGK . If you cant read then thats your problem . 

Im tired of arguing with someone who has not talked with NGK and found out 

the Correct information themselves and are so self- righteous that they are 

right because of second hand info from a authorized ROTAX sealer and repair 

station . OF course they want you to buy from them thats how they make a 

buck geeesh. .

  Now Dave I do not have a problem with you its just  that in my humble 

opinion you do not have all your marbles in one place .

 Read and listen to the post and go on to the net and ask questions of the 

right people.



Take care fly safe fly low fly snow

MERRY CHRISTMAS



John Perry



---

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