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Aerobatics(at)aol.com
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 Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 6:48 pm Post subject: less than 100 foot take off ... cool |
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Less than 100 feet? calm day? Wow awesome
I thought I could TO short 
I once had a bit of snow on my runway so I could plainly see and accurately measure I also tried different things. Best I got was a bit under 200 feet on a cold day, no wind, solo, 1/2 fuel. Most were around 225 feet.
I even have some on vid
Full Brake full power full up elevator, release brake, after about a long second, full down to level. Adjust elevator to maintain level, then as I pass 35 mph Up to rotate.
My strip is 750 feet total. So I practice this all the time.
I cant imagine a KF taking off in less than 100 feet, that has to be a rush!
Dave Patrick
KF 2 582
[quote][b]
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kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:41 pm Post subject: less than 100 foot take off ... cool |
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What is the hp / engine and empty weight
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Aerobatics(at)aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 8:47 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: less than 100 foot take off ... cool
Less than 100 feet? calm day? Wow awesome
I thought I could TO short
I once had a bit of snow on my runway so I could plainly see and accurately measure I also tried different things. Best I got was a bit under 200 feet on a cold day, no wind, solo, 1/2 fuel. Most were around 225 feet.
I even have some on vid
Full Brake full power full up elevator, release brake, after about a long second, full down to level. Adjust elevator to maintain level, then as I pass 35 mph Up to rotate.
My strip is 750 feet total. So I practice this all the time.
I cant imagine a KF taking off in less than 100 feet, that has to be a rush!
Dave Patrick
KF 2 582
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
01234
[quote][b]
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Aerobatics(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:10 pm Post subject: less than 100 foot take off ... cool |
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In a message dated 12/27/2006 9:42:39 P.M. Central Standard Time, kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com writes:
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What is the hp / engine and empty weight
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Empty wt is 480 lbs its a KF 2 the 582 Blue head is 66 hp on an E box IVO 3 blade UL prop
[quote][b]
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cliffh(at)outdrs.net
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:43 am Post subject: less than 100 foot take off ... cool |
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This is standard procedure for a short field takeoff. I have used this procedure for years in a Cessena 180 and now in my Speedster.
I havren't measured the distance with a tape measure but I am sure that less than 100 ft is entirely possible.
Floran H.
[quote] ---
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dave
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382
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av8rps(at)tznet.com
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:18 pm Post subject: less than 100 foot take off ... cool |
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Dave,
Back in the late 80's and early 90's it seemed everyone with an Avid Flyer or a Kitfox was trying to outdo the other guy in the short takeoff category (other airplanes generally can't even compete with our airplanes). So to defend the STOL KING credentials of my Avid Flyer, I practiced, practiced, and practiced some more my short takeoff technique.
I found what worked best is to hold brakes with full power until you feel the airplane starting to overcome the brakes (we had poor mechanical brakes way back when, so that was almost immediately), then within a few feet of the starting roll to release slight stick back pressure, just enough to let the tailwheel rise ever so slightly (a couple inches off the surface). Then just before you thought it might fly (in my airplane at the time this was just as the airspeed indicator was coming up on 20 mph), jerk the flaps on full while burying the stick in your lap. This would normally provide a "main gear first" liftoff, followed by the tailwheel. Of course as soon as you were off you had to reduce the back pressure as well as about 1/2 the flaps. But you were off very short, and in those early planes climbing out at about a 45 degree angle!
The thought process behind using this technique is;
1 - The drag caused by rolling down the runway with the wing at a high angle of attack is minimal at best when you consider the very slow speeds a light Avid or Kitfox can lift off at (20-25 mph), and the short distance you rolled (50-75 feet) .
2 - With the high wing angle of attack right from the start of the roll the very high lift airfoil (especially of the early airplanes) goes to work lightening the aircraft, allowing it to fly sooner. If nothing else, it forces the lift off at the least amount of speed needed, rather than relying on the pilots judgement of the rotation time or speed.
3 - By releasing just enough back pressure to let the tailwheel skim a few inches off the ground, you've minimized wheel drag for one of the wheels, but yet maintained that high angle of attack of the wing for the most lift.
4 - When you really knew your airplane and were able to pull back on the stick and the flap handle at just the right moment, you caused a "ballooning effect" much like when you first apply flaps on a decent. That balloon effect on takeoff maximizes use of ground effect.
Why not raise the tail and rotate? Well, on the early airplanes the takeoff was so quick that seemed like nothing more than a waste of time to me. Plus I was busy enough the way it was. So does this technique still apply? I think so. I'm sure someone will tell me why it won't according to some other source, but I still use it. A similar technique gets my 775 lb 912ul amphib Model 4 off the water in 8 seconds (although in that case I also raise one fly by applying full left aileron and a touch of left rudder while jerking on the stick and the flaps...). That is a very short takeoff for an amphib, especially one with only 80 horsepower that has everything but the kitchen sink on it. Unfortunately I can't tell you how it compares on wheels as I haven't yet flown my fox on wheels. But I'm sure it will do a 4-5 second takeoff on land (even without doing the math, I'm sure thats not a lot of forward distance).
Here's a little story describing just how well my practiced technique worked; I once won $100 in a bet against a guy that owned a souped up 360 hp IO-550 powered 185 Cessna by having a group of other pilots measure off my Avid Flyers takeoff. He said there was no way I could take off in a hundred feet (the claim I made to the group that he overheard) and went on to make jokes about my snowmobilie motor powered toy airplane. Of course I had to defend the Avid, so I bet him $100 I could do it in less than a hundred feet, and certainly shorter than he could with his hot rod Cessna. Oh yeah, we had a density altitude at the time of almost 4,000 feet as it was 90+ degrees out (with essentially no wind). So the group of other pilots hanging around the airport measure for me, as I took off sideways on a taxiway (the airport manager knew me and my plane well, so went along with my little escapade). 52 feet was all I used that day. Being verified by a bunch of other pilots (some his buddies even) as well as himself, made him eat a lot of crow that day. And he wasn't interested in showing us how short he could take off in his big buck hotrod Cessna either. To conclude this story, for the record I never took his money. I just told him to be more careful in the future about picking on guys with homebuilts. Especially those with two stroke engines. He still talks to me today, and occasionally teases about one day owning an Avid Flyer or Kitfox.
And for further proof we can get our airplanes off short, just check out what John Knapp does at Oshkosh or Greenville with his two stroke powered Avid Flyer on floats. He holds the world record off the water, 2.7 seconds!!!! I have some video that one of these days I will load of John doing some of his takeoffs. In one, I don't think he uses more than 6 feet! Yeah, I did say SIX FEET.
Play around with your takeoff techniques. These airplanes are all pretty amazing performers in the right hands (eg. Jimmy Franklin, John Knapp....) No reason you can't become that expert like with your own. And when onlookers see how well our airplanes perform, John McBean just might sell a couple more Foxes.... the more the merrier.
Happy New Year!
Paul Seehafer
Central Wisconsin
Model IV-1200 amphib 912ul
oh yeah, the Avid I was flying back then was an A-model (similar to the model I kitfox), powered by a 532 Rotax. However, the airplane only weighed 396 pounds, and that little ol' 532 dyno'd bone stock at 73 horsepower. It was a real performer, like most of the earliest airplanes.
[quote] ---
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kitfoxmike
Joined: 05 Dec 2006
Posts: 373
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: less than 100 foot take off ... cool |
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Sounds way cool. I do some pretty short take off and landings. In fact when I get in the grove for short, inside, approaches. I commonly hear other pilots asking what kind of aircraft I'm flying. My favorate is to do 3 touch and goes on the 172's while there on their final. On my take off's, I like to get off the ground as soon as possible, run within 10feet of the ground and get my speed way up then pull up and do a turn, real fun, and, gets a lot of lookers.
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Michel
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: less than 100 foot take off ... cool |
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On Dec 28, 2006, at 10:18 PM, Paul Seehafer wrote:
| Quote: | Why not raise the tail and rotate?
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Interesting reading, Paul. Of course, I won't tell you why one should
raise the tail and rotate, I know much too little about aviation, I am
merely reading and learning. Reading your email definitively tells me
that I should try other take-off techniques than the one I use. The key
element is probably that when I tried to take off with a high angle of
attack, I didn't had enough speed and was pulling too much the stick.
If you have ever done that, you know that it doesn't feel right and you
hope nobody is watching.
I think I'll have to try until I find the correct stick pressure.
That's the nice thing about flying: Always something new to try, always
something new to learn, always a good reason to go out flying ... Now,
if someone can tell that to my wife!
Happy New Year,
Michel
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Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:18 pm Post subject: less than 100 foot take off ... cool |
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Paul:
Being a float flyer I really want to see that one!!!!
Noel [quote]
And for further proof we can get our airplanes off short, just check out what John Knapp does at Oshkosh or Greenville with his two stroke powered Avid Flyer on floats. He holds the world record off the water, 2.7 seconds!!!! I have some video that one of these days I will load of John doing some of his takeoffs. In one, I don't think he uses more than 6 feet! Yeah, I did say SIX FEET.
[b]
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Noel Loveys
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