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gyoung

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 211
Location: Republic of Texas

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:19 am Post subject: SNF Changes

Beware anyone flying to SnF... the masses are being  turned loose on us.

  



   2007 SNF Attendees,

  

 Check out this article in the local paper, the flight line will be "open"  to anyone who buys a ticket, no more checking wristbands at the  flightline.

  

 http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061228/NEWS/612280447/1039

  

   [quote][b]

jeffpoint

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 72
Location: MKE

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 11:47 am Post subject: SNF Changes

Wow.  Thanks for the heads up.  This is a terrible decision on SnF's 

part.  I know they've cut their ties to EAA, but does that mean that 

they can't learn from the mistakes of EAA?



Jeff Point

do not archive

 	  Quote: 	
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_________________
Jeff Point
RV-6
Milwaukee WI

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:09 pm Post subject: SNF Changes

According to the article, Wayne Boggs, Sun 'n Fun's director of

operations, explains "If doing this attracts just one child to a career

in aviation, then it's worth it," he said.



Maybe what he really meant to say was  "If doing this will sell just one

more ticket, then it's worth it,".



I don't think anyone is against the 'unwashed' public getting an

up-close and personal introduction to aviation, but at some point,

public safety and protection of aircrafts becomes equally, or more,

important.  Curious how many pilots and aricraft owners they consulted

with prior to this decision?



Chuck Jensen

Do Not Archive

 

--

jhstarn(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:39 pm Post subject: SNF Changes

I recall going with Chuck Wentworth in  his TBM Avenger (we were CAF members) to an airshow in Paso Robles many years  back where the organizers allowed EVERYONE who bought a ticket to get up close  & personal with ALL the flightline aircraft. Several family groups took up  "residence" under the shade of the TBM's wings. 

 I was on "patrol" during the show  keeping the aircraft "safe" from fingers & feet and selling from our  portable PX. 

 After the show we did a complete walk  around & inspected everything. We found food wrappers, empty cans  etc. stuffed in every opening. However the dirty soiled diapers (3 on one  side, 2 in the other) stuffed back up in the wheel wells was the topper.  

 Ya might want to take your own poles  & ropes.   KABONG Do Not Archive

 [quote]   ---

brianpublic2(at)starband.
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:43 pm Post subject: SNF Changes

Interesting info - I didn't realize SNF was not an EAA function.

brian



--

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: SNF Changes

This is the part I don't understand. Aren't we supposed to be introducting flying, airplanes, and pilots to "the masses"  so that when the local governments want to close our airports to build more homes, people don't say "pilots? Just a bunch of rich, snobby, rich boys,  here's the keys to the bulldozer?"



I'm sure there are stories like the ones John described below. But I also know that the vast majority of people respect the airplanes and heed the signs thereon. In fact, in that entire RV area at OSH last year, I don't recall seeing a single wrapper.  Maybe that side of the field is just more respectful.



I don't know what the solution is. But I think an automatic "they're the public, therefor they shouldn't be allowed near us" is probably not the first one I'd recommend. 



The idea of staking out a rope around your aircraft might be a good start, but I also think we need to be proactive in coming up with ways to present a better image of who we are, why we fly, and why non-flyers should protect what we do.

Bob Collins

RV Builder's Hotline

http://rvhotline.expercraft.com

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 1:46 pm Post subject: SNF Changes

Bob,



I agree whole heartedly.  We do not want to treat the public as the

great unwashed and imply they unworthy of touching an plane.  After all,

our ability to have airports and airplances may well rest with their

good-will.  



When it comes to planes, we know that if you've seen one, you haven't

seen them all, but if one or two are available for 'hands-on' inspection

with some volunteer pilots around the exhibit plane(s) to encourage (but

monitor) close inspections and answer questions, that may sate the

curiousity of many and would add to their knowledge and appreciation

when they see other planes.  It'd also be an opportunity to explain

airplane-etiguette to the unfamiliar, which will engender respect and a

personal connection.



Or, perhaps a separate flight line could be set aside with open access

to the public.  The planes on that flight line would be volunteers and

the pilots encouraged to stay with the plane for the entire morning or

entire afternoon to interface with the public while keeping a watchful

eye on their craft.



There are bound to be multiple plans that could be developed and

executed that would provide a quality, but safe, experience for the

public and the pilots, rather than just making the flight line a open

cattle-call.



SNF should endeaver to do this 'with' the pilots and aircraft owners,

not do it 'to' them.  



Chuck Jensen

Do Not Archive

 

--

rv8(at)lazy8.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject: SNF Changes

Jeff

Isn't the public allowed to get up close and personal to all the 

aircraft at Oshkosh?

John

Jeff Point wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Wow.  Thanks for the heads up.  This is a terrible decision on SnF's 

 part.  I know they've cut their ties to EAA, but does that mean that 

 they can't learn from the mistakes of EAA?

 Jeff Point

 do not archive

> *

> *

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: SNF Changes

 	  cjensen(at)dts9000.com wrote: 	
		  Bob,



I agree whole heartedly.  We do not want to treat the public as the

great unwashed and imply they unworthy of touching an plane.  After all,

our ability to have airports and airplances may well rest with their

good-will. 

-- 	




I would think a separate private parking area, perhaps for those who don't want to have their aircraft available wouldn't be a bad idea. And, certainly, in any case there needs to be a POP organization as at OSH.



On the whole, I'd say a major fly-in is a lousy place to go if you don't want anyone touching your plane, though, although someday I hope to find out what it's like to be able to fly a plane to a major fly-in. Or not.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

jfogarty(at)tds.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:54 pm Post subject: SNF Changes

I have never noticed anything around the Cardinal that we have parked on the 

North Forty at OSH for the last five years.  The EAA staff and members do a 

great job with the pilot community and the general public keeping the 

grounds and plane's safe.  I think the folks looking over the RV's know what 

they are looking at and understand the hard work and value of these 

airplanes.  I walked by the RV's for a number of years and really never 

thought much about them.  But sooner or later they will get you and then you 

are hooked, and that is what the AOPA and the EAA are hoping for.  This 

certainly helps build a strong membership and a powerful organization.



Working on the wings in the Northwood of MN.



Jim - RV9a

---

gert.v(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 3:35 pm Post subject: SNF Changes

having worked for many a year now at Oshkosh i can attest to the horror 

stories, i have seen the wing as diaper change areas, i have seen folks 

poking in fabric covered wings and caught folks stuffing coke cans in 

exhausts, folding chairs stacked 4 deep against the fiberglass bodies, 

broken pitot's because bags were hung from it. my winner was the guy 

smoking at the flight line asking me if the avgas dripping out of a 

slanted highwing was flammable. After all the years at Oshkosh i am 

surprised not more gets damaged.



As for the RV area, the RV area is relatively protected as it is far, 

far, away from the flight line during the airshow. It is the folks who 

come for a 'spectacle' who mass along the flight line on, under and 

amongst the parked planes.

if the RV area were front and center u would see the same problems 

amongst the RV's.



Gert



Bob Collins wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 This is the part I don't understand. Aren't we supposed to be introducting flying, airplanes, and pilots to "the masses"  so that when the local governments want to close our airports to build more homes, people don't say "pilots? Just a bunch of rich, snobby, rich boys,  here's the keys to the bulldozer?"



 I'm sure there are stories like the ones John described below. But I also know that the vast majority of people respect the airplanes and heed the signs thereon. In fact, in that entire RV area at OSH last year, I don't recall seeing a single wrapper.  Maybe that side of the field is just more respectful.



 I don't know what the solution is. But I think an automatic "they're the public, therefor they shouldn't be allowed near us" is probably not the first one I'd recommend. 



 The idea of staking out a rope around your aircraft might be a good start, but I also think we need to be proactive in coming up with ways to present a better image of who we are, why we fly, and why non-flyers should protect what we do.

 Bob Collins

 RV Builder's Hotline

 http://rvhotline.expercraft.com



 --------

 Bob Collins

 St. Paul, Minn.

 RV Builder's Hotline (free!)

 http://rvhotline.expercraft.com





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=84030#84030



   


	


-- 



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gert.v(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 3:36 pm Post subject: SNF Changes

North forty is miles away from the show center were the masses congregate.



Jim Fogarty at Lakes & Leisure Realty wrote:

[quote] 

 <jfogarty(at)tds.net>



 I have never noticed anything around the Cardinal that we have parked 

 on the North Forty at OSH for the last five years.  The EAA staff and 

 members do a great job with the pilot community and the general public 

 keeping the grounds and plane's safe.  I think the folks looking over 

 the RV's know what they are looking at and understand the hard work 

 and value of these airplanes.  I walked by the RV's for a number of 

 years and really never thought much about them.  But sooner or later 

 they will get you and then you are hooked, and that is what the AOPA 

 and the EAA are hoping for.  This certainly helps build a strong 

 membership and a powerful organization.



 Working on the wings in the Northwood of MN.



 Jim - RV9a

 ---

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: SNF Changes

 	  gert.v(at)sbcglobal.net wrote: 	
		  having worked for many a year now at Oshkosh i can attest to the horror 

stories, i have seen the wing as diaper change areas, i have seen folks 

poking in fabric covered wings and caught folks stuffing coke cans in 

exhausts, folding chairs stacked 4 deep against the fiberglass bodies, 	


I say this only HALF in jest. Ban strollers. I hate strollers. Folks are pushing strollers, looking up and BANG...right into my ankles. 



Seriously, I too have seen the crowds along the flightline. I don't think I'd park there. Plus the atmosphere in the South 40 is wayyyyyyyy too cool to ever want to leave.

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

ptrotter

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 28
Location: Westchester County, NY

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:25 pm Post subject: SNF Changes

I expect this will backfire on them.  Either no one will fly in anymore 

because they will worry about damage, or SNF will end up with a lot of 

lawsuits for damage.  I assume they will claim that they have the 

appropriate security to protect planes and in doing so will open them up to 

a negligence claim if something happens.



Getting the public interested in flying is all well and good, but allowing 

people who have no understanding, and in many cases no respect, close to 

expensive planes is probably not a good idea.  I would definitely think 

twice about flying in.



Paul

DO NOT ARCHIVE

---

_________________
Paul Trotter
RV-8 82080 Fuselage Kit
N801PT (reserved)

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:36 pm Post subject: SNF Changes

Sun-N-Fun has always been an independent corporation.  It's funny how perspective works.  I'm a 32 year volunteer ..... never missed a one ..... and changes never came easy.  Those changes that were seen as 'like Oshkosh' were resented ..... and those that weren't ...... were still resented.  Changes are inevitable ..... but most of the 'old timers' still long for 'the good old days'.

 Linn ..... do not archive

 

 Brian Meyette wrote:

 [quote]   [quote]--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Meyette" <brianpublic2(at)starband.net> (brianpublic2(at)starband.net)  Interesting info - I didn't realize SNF was not an EAA function. brian  --

Mark Phillips in TN

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 431
Location: Columbia, TN

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:02 am Post subject: SNF Changes

I would think a large sign posted at each entrance saying something like "READ BEFORE ENTERING: These aircraft are the expensive children of their owners who have lovingly devoted many years to their construction and can easily be damaged by mishandling- PLEASE DO NOT TOUCH THEM!" may help, but I think the most insidious practice is S&Fs habit of stuffing the more popular models (RVs) into a small area nose&tail with inches between wingtips.  I've seen numerous instances of folks oohing&aahing one plane and backing into the one packed tightly against it, banging backpacks into planes trying to squeeze between them etc.  Particularly frustrating when you see the acres of open ground at LAL where these planes could easily be parked...

  

 Mark- RV-6A N51PW do not archive

 http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/

  [quote][b]

_________________
From The PossumWorks...

aerokinetic(at)sbcglobal.
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:26 am Post subject: SNF Changes

Both bad and good to this -like OSH. Be nice though if they passed on the additional gate revenue to the pilots who pay $100's or even $1000's to bring their planes there. They are, after all making their money from our being there.

   

  Scott

  N4ZW

 [quote][b]

lhelming(at)sigecom.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:09 pm Post subject: SNF Changes

Talking about parking tail to nose and nose to tail, they started  doing this at OSH last year when I arrived.  Someone got it changed in  quick order within 30 minutes.  I was there and did not like the  arrangement but was happy to move SunSeeker to a new roll and have the  lines uniform.  I think it is better for spectators and  owners.  Larry in Indiana

 [quote]   ---

jeffpoint

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 72
Location: MKE

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:10 pm Post subject: SNF Changes

LarryRobertHelming wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Talking about parking tail to nose and nose to tail, they started 

 doing this at OSH last year when I arrived.  Someone got it changed in 

 quick order within 30 minutes.  I was there and did not like the 

 arrangement but was happy to move SunSeeker to a new roll and have the 

 lines uniform.  I think it is better for spectators and owners.  Larry 

 in Indiana

Larry,
	


I'm the guy in charge of RV parking, and I can give you some insight 

into why this was done and why it was changed.  When it comes to RV 

parking, we have the problem every year of putting more planes into the 

same size space.  We've been telling EAA for years that we need more 

space, but what we get is never enough.  Anyway, this year someone 

higher than me in the food chain had the brain child to tail-in the 

parking rows.  I told them why it was a bad idea and why it wouldn't 

work.  He told us to do it anyway.



So... what you saw on Saturday morning was the result.  We weren't any 

more happy about it than anyone else (my RV-6 was right in there tailed 

in with everyone else.)  We tried our best to be good soldiers and make 

it work, but as soon as arrivals started, it became clear that it just 

wasn't going to work.  Pilots were on the verge of mutiny.  I decided to 

re-mark all the parking rows and move everyone into single file, as 

we've done for years.  It was a lot of work for about an hour, but we 

got the cones and markers moved, and got everyone into proper rows, 

thankfully before it got too busy.



When my boss found out he was less than thrilled, but I think we made 

him understand.  I suspect that the specter of tailing in might raise 

it's ugly head again this year, but we've told them in no uncertain 

terms that we will never try that again.  So, if you see RVs tailed in 

next year, it means that I have been fired and replaced, so don't blame 

me. 



Jeff Point

do not archive



 	  Quote: 	
		   *

 *

_________________
Jeff Point
RV-6
Milwaukee WI

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:58 pm Post subject: SNF Changes

I had the pleasure of sitting under a tree and watch Jeff work parking all

those RVs. It was a masterful performance and I'm sure the arriving Rvers

agreed.



I suggest whoever his boss is at Oshkosh just do whatever he says.



I think there were 400-450 RVs at OSH this year and I'm sure there'll be a

lot more next year.  What do you suppose the plan will be for accomodating

them all?



Bob

Do not archive 



--

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

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