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Kitfox on ski technique

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Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:23 am Post subject: Kitfox on ski technique

Hello guys,



Yesterday was the first nice day this year and I went flying. I used the opportunity to do some touch and go, with my skis, on the snow, on the shoulders of the runway. It didn't go very well.

There was about a good foot of powdery snow with a thin crust of ice on the top. Because I don't have a ski on the tailwheel, I try to land on two wheels, tail up. But then, the drag (wheel penetration skis) in the snow is such as the nose tend to go down. Normal reaction is to pull the stick. But then the AoA increases and the plane is airborne again, to fall back in the snow a few yards away. It felt like the bad landings I did when I learnt to fly my tailwheel Kitfox.

I did four such bad snow landings then gave up. I can't find the proper technique. Should I do a three-points landing? Do you, guys, have a ski on your tailwheel? How do you attach it?



Thanks in advance,

Michel

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_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

jcorner(at)shaw.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:38 pm Post subject: Kitfox on ski technique

Michel



Many long years ago when I flew ski equipped Aeroncas, (no tail ski)  

I was taught to land as if on wheels.

When you think about it, it will help to keep the aircraft straighter  

on roll out and shorten landing distance.



Jim

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hello guys,



 Yesterday was the first nice day this year and I went flying. I  

 used the opportunity to do some touch and go, with my skis, on the  

 snow, on the shoulders of the runway. It didn't go very well.

 There was about a good foot of powdery snow with a thin crust of  

 ice on the top. Because I don't have a ski on the tailwheel, I try  

 to land on two wheels, tail up. But then, the drag (wheel  

 penetration skis) in the snow is such as the nose tend to go down.  

 Normal reaction is to pull the stick. But then the AoA increases  

 and the plane is airborne again, to fall back in the snow a few  

 yards away. It felt like the bad landings I did when I learnt to  

 fly my tailwheel Kitfox.

 I did four such bad snow landings then gave up. I can't find the  

 proper technique. Should I do a three-points landing? Do you, guys,  

 have a ski on your tailwheel? How do you attach it?



 Thanks in advance,

 Michel

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gofalke(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:44 pm Post subject: Kitfox on ski technique

Michel,

  I had a similar experience with home-made wheel penetrating skis.

  The snow was very deep. Upon trying to land, the Fox decellerated very fast, in fact so fast that I was afraid to get airborn again. I had to use full power to get off again before I stopped. The lack of a tail ski should not effect the performance that much.

  I think my problem was the wheels penetrated to far down, about 1-1/2" below the skis, and the gap between the tires front and back were too large for snow to accumulate. I took the skis off, waiting for modification, if I ever feel like it.

  

Herb Gottelt, M4-1200,912UL,

  Mt. Prospect, IL

Michel Verheughe <michel(at)online.no> wrote:

  



Hello guys,



Yesterday was the first nice day this year and I went flying. I used the opportunity to do some touch and go, with my skis, on the snow, on the shoulders of the runway. It didn't go very well.

There was about a good foot of powdery snow with a thin crust of ice on the top. Because I don't have a ski on the tailwheel, I try to land on two wheels, tail up. But then, the drag (wheel penetration skis) in the snow is such as the nose tend to go down. Normal reaction is to pull the stick. But then the AoA increases and the plane is airborne again, to fall back in the snow a few yards away. It felt like the bad landings I did when I learnt to fly my tailwheel Kitfox.

I did four such bad snow landings then gave up. I can't find the proper technique. Should I do a three-points landing? Do you, guys, have a ski on your tailwheel? How do you attach it?



Thanks in advance,

Michel

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smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:55 am Post subject: Kitfox on ski technique

Michel,



I was given a picture last fall of a tail wheel ski

made out of an aluminum dish pan.  Your wheel sticks

thru like the main wheels, but the dish pan keeps it

from sinking into the snow.  Brackets were made and

riveted to the pan to attach it to the tail wheel

assembly.  The only problem I saw with the system is

that you would not have help steering on the snow

since the pan was a round dish shape.  Only the rudder

would be effective.



Anyway, a very inexpensive tail wheel sky that worked

for a Rans S-7 and might work for a Fox too. 

Unfortunately I am in Equador and not at my home

computer to send the pic.  Be back next week if you

are interested in it, but I bet you could figure one

out yourself by then.  Just have to wait until your

wife is out of the kitchen to grab a pan....



Kurt S.



--- Michel Verheughe <michel(at)online.no> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hello guys,

 

..............
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   I did four such bad snow landings then gave up. I

 can't find the proper technique. Should I do a

 three-points landing? Do you, guys, have a ski on

 your tailwheel? How do you attach it?

 

 Thanks in advance,

 Michel

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Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:29 pm Post subject: Kitfox on ski technique

Hello Kurt,



On Jan 31, 2006, at 8:52 PM, kurt schrader wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Brackets were made and riveted to the pan to attach it to the tail 

 wheel

 assembly.


	


I have seen something similar on a EuroCub but my worry is that, if the 

snow is soft enough, it would dig like a plough. I understand that, in 

the snow, the tailwheel won't steer at all. It's not a problem, to 

taxi, I have to give so much throttle that I usually do it on the main 

gear, tail up, using the rudder only.

I was thinking of making something that would be ahead of the 

tailwheel, something I could attach to the cross pipe that is used to 

attach a dorsal fin, on seaplanes. That ski, or aluminium plate would 

then make sure that the snow won't reach up to the fuselage AND that no 

snow can accumulate on the top of that "ski."

Any thoughts, anyone?



 	  Quote: 	
		   Unfortunately I am in Equador


	


Entonces, que aprovechas tu viaje y hasta pronto! 



Michel

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_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

CrownLJ(at)verizon.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:58 pm Post subject: Kitfox on ski technique

Michel,



  I have an Avid on ski's and I use the following method.  I always take off and land with full flaperons.  I also put a 5lb lead weight on the tail to offset the weight of the skis.  I approach as per a normal 3 point landing, but just hold the tail off from touching and allow the mains to touch. I am usually adding power at this point. (about 3500 rpm Rotax 3:1)  Snow does produce a fair amount of drag and it will want to tail up.  Just hold the nose where you want it.  If you lift off again, I would suggest that you may be too fast on touch down, and too brisk on the stick.  I normally touch down at 40ish mph ias.  It indicates a stall at 38ish.  I would highly encourage the use of full flapperon to get the attitude more  shallow.  Some will say that you will lack aileron control, but I do not find this to be the case, but more rudder is needed to stay coordinated.  The Avid flapperons are limited to 15 degrees ref a level wing.



Hope this help.  I have to run to pick up the kids.

Larry

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algate(at)attglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:53 am Post subject: Kitfox on ski technique

I would be careful using full flapperon deflection on late model 4 or Lite2

Kitfoxes as this will basically make it very difficult to keep the tail

down. You will almost be guaranteed to land nose down and have an unpleasant

view of the runway. I'm sure this is different for the Avid.



GaryA



  I have an Avid on ski's and I use the following method.  I always take off

and land with full flaperons

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