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brianpublic2(at)starband.
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:38 am Post subject: Kitplanes attack

I got an email this morning from a Phil Penny at Belvoir Media Group,

claiming that Kitplanes magazine owns the homebuilt plane vendor directory

spreadsheet I created this fall from various sources, mainly the Internet.

He claims it's theirs because I used similar codes as they did in their

"pay-per-view" directory, like "wf" for wood & fabric, "m" for metal, etc. I

guess he thought I should have used "Z" for metal and "QP" for wood &

fabric. He also objected to the fact that my directory has data similar to

theirs. Well, I hope it's similar; otherwise someone has incorrect data; a

plane's wingspan, for example, is a rather fixed value.



It's bad enough that these people are so cheap they even charge subscribers

to view things on their web page, but this really takes the cake.



Phil threatened to sue me if I don't take it down, and I told Phil it wasn't

theirs or copied from theirs, and I won't be taking it down. So, now he's

"referring this to our legal counsel". Apparently, there is no limit to

their greed.



If anyone wants a copy of it, I suggest getting it now. Also, several people

have given me updated info to put into it, so if you know of any incorrect

or missing data, please let me know, and I will update it with that info.



I'm only on a couple lists, but if you're on other homebuilder lists, you

might want to forward this URL to other lists you are on, so more people can

access the directory while it's still available (just in case they are

successful if getting it removed).



I put a lot of work into this, as a resource that we can all keep up to date

and share. It's a shame there are people and companies like this out there

to harass people who are trying to do something decent for everyone.



The directory is at



http://brian76.mystarband.net/misc.htm#directory



--

8:22 AM

recapen(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:00 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

If you have some of your original sources - and they're not from Belvoir Media Group - you should be able to win.



Meanwhile, sounds like another JPI gorilla is loose!



--

mgoodrich(at)tampabay.rr.
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:27 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

Brian,



guess its time for alittle letter writing from the homebuilt community to

Kit Planes.

Do you have any emial links for us??



--

phil(at)petrasoft.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:37 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

I did some studying years ago on copyrighting data like this.  Basically 

you can't copyright a fact.  IOW you can't copyright the material 

properties of lead.  You can copyright 'collections' of facts.  So a 

table listing the material properties of lead, arsenic and gold would be 

copyrightable (is that a word?).



I bet that it'd be awful hard for Kitplanes to win a suit like that but 

the big boys tend to get away with these attacks because they have the 

lawyers on stand by and you'll find it not worth the effort.  I would 

hope that the other members of this community would stand behind you and 

give you a hand.  Let us know if they actually follow through on the threat.



I canceled my subscription to Kitplanes years ago because I simply found 

that the value ratio was off.  There's less advertising and better 

content in Sport Aviation and I get that one for free.



DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT A LAWYER, NOR DID I SLEEP IN A HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS 

LAST NIGHT.



Do Not Archive



Godspeed,



Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas

RV-7 N727WB

http://www.myrv7.com



Brian Meyette wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I got an email this morning from a Phil Penny at Belvoir Media Group,

 claiming that Kitplanes magazine owns the homebuilt plane vendor directory

 spreadsheet I created this fall from various sources, mainly the Internet.

 He claims it's theirs because I used similar codes as they did in their

 "pay-per-view" directory, like "wf" for wood & fabric, "m" for metal, etc. I

 guess he thought I should have used "Z" for metal and "QP" for wood &

 fabric. He also objected to the fact that my directory has data similar to

 theirs. Well, I hope it's similar; otherwise someone has incorrect data; a

 plane's wingspan, for example, is a rather fixed value.



 It's bad enough that these people are so cheap they even charge subscribers

 to view things on their web page, but this really takes the cake.



 Phil threatened to sue me if I don't take it down, and I told Phil it wasn't

 theirs or copied from theirs, and I won't be taking it down. So, now he's

 "referring this to our legal counsel". Apparently, there is no limit to

 their greed.



 If anyone wants a copy of it, I suggest getting it now. Also, several people

 have given me updated info to put into it, so if you know of any incorrect

 or missing data, please let me know, and I will update it with that info.



 I'm only on a couple lists, but if you're on other homebuilder lists, you

 might want to forward this URL to other lists you are on, so more people can

 access the directory while it's still available (just in case they are

 successful if getting it removed).



 I put a lot of work into this, as a resource that we can all keep up to date

 and share. It's a shame there are people and companies like this out there

 to harass people who are trying to do something decent for everyone.



 The directory is at



 http://brian76.mystarband.net/misc.htm#directory



 --

 8:22 AM

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:50 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

 	  Quote: 	
		  Brian,



 guess its time for alittle letter writing from the homebuilt community to

 Kit Planes.

 Do you have any emial links for us??

 	




 Editorial:   Marc Cook, Editor-in-Chief 
editorial(at)kitplanes.com (editorial(at)kitplanes.com) 
Mary Bernard, Managing Editor 
editorial(at)kitplanes.com (editorial(at)kitplanes.com) Do not archive



 Ron Lee    [quote][b]

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:03 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

I just had a thought.  Instead of keeping something like a database on a 

personal website, why not upload it to a wikipedia site, and everybody 

would have the capability to both add data and to correct invalid data 

..... which would make it a community effort and not subject to attack 

by Kitplanes.



I'm not a subscriber, but this kind of action doesn't do our 'family' 

any good, and would be one reason I wouldn't renew.



The comment about just giving in instead of fighting the situation is 

why most 'big guys' get their way ..... even if they're not in the 

right.  Sad, but it's lawyers who are running this country ...... and 

some of them are the worst offenders!!!



Linn

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

As mentioned in other posts, tabulating of facts is not a problem, only

if they have a unique design or content that imbues special value do

they have some unique, that may or may not be copyrightable.  If you

contend that you developed your information independently, even if you

had a copy of their list, you should still be good to go.  



Map makers check for theft by inserting phantom towns or misspelled

words.  Then, if a new map shows up that was supposedly developed

independently, but has the same phantom towns or misspelled words, then

they are going to have a problem.  In your case, as along as your facts

are the same as the kit list, no problem.  If one of your 'facts'

replicates an error in the kit list (intentional or not), then you might

have some explaining to do, otherwise, BMG should spend their time and

effort on something productive...like putting useful, value-added

content in their magazine which may cause people to subscribe or renew

their subscription.



With all that said, we should not make light of people that make an

effort to protect intellectual property that they spent time and

treasury to develop and rightfully own and should be paid for its use,

if they so demand.  The Chinese are intellectual thieves of the highest

order and we do not want to emulate their lack of respect for patents,

copyrights and confidential and propriety information.  Nonetheless,

there are those enamored of protecting things that they've assumed

ownership of, but truly belongs in the public domain.  Count me

skeptical that someone controls the use of "W" as designating wood.

It's not always easy to sort out which is which, and sometimes finding

out you were wrong can be expensive, but seems very doubtful indeed for

a list of kit plane specifications.



Thanks,

Chuck Jensen

Diversified Technologies

2680 Westcott Blvd

Knoxville, TN  37931

Phn:     865-539-9000 x25

Cell:     865-406-9001

Fax:     865-539-9001

cjensen(at)dts9000.com

 

--

brianpublic2(at)starband.
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:34 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

I really appreciate all the support I’ve gotten on this in the short time since I posted the info.     

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

One of the best things about it is that my directory, and more importantly the concept of what I was trying to do, have gotten wide exposure.   I did the best I could with limited time (I am supposed to be building my plane), but the directory wasn’t as good as I’d hoped.  I started with a MS Access database, then switched over to Excel for easier data entry.  So, it was a tad hokey, but it got the job done.  I spent a huge amount of time on it, and I’d envisioned something where the list was freely available to all, easy for users or manufacturers to update the information, and easy for users to search and sort the data at will.     

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

Since this issue of lawsuit threats came up, a couple people have offered to take my spreadsheet data and take it to the next level.  This is wonderful, and more in line with what I’d originally envisioned; sort of a wiki or public database that could be kept always up to date and result in the best search info for users.  It was never for me, as I already have my RV-7A, but I thought others could benefit from it.  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

Best wishes to all,  

brian  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

Below is the email exchange between me and Phil Penny:  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

--

nandrand(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:40 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

Hi Brian,

           How can Kit Plane own generic information?? I was, at one time, 

going  sign up with them, but when I saw you had to pay for info on their 

site I thourght what a pack tight a....es!!!!!  I'm with you on this one 

Brian... I  do not buy thier magazine now, all the info is in many other far 

better publickations. (and the net) I think every body on the list, who 

agrees with Biran, should e-mail Kit Planes and support Brian's free, good 

work!!!  We don't need this kind of person in our hobby or 

business's!!!!!!!!!!!  I know some one is going to flame me for 

this!!!!!!!???????????? but what the h...ll.   Stand up for whats right, 

speak up if you don't agree with something, otherwise you get rolled!!!



                                                 My Kind Regards to All 

Happy New Year ,            Noel

---

brianpublic2(at)starband.
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:48 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

I agree completely, and that was sort of my original idea, implemented in a

rather hokey way with my limited time & resources.   A couple people have

emailed me about doing something similar to this, starting with my

spreadsheet, and I hope they do it.  It'll be a great resource for all of us

in the homebuilt community.



I had used the term "kitplanes directory" on my web site, just to save width

in the "contents" frame.  I've since changed it to "Homebuilt plane vendor

directory", which avoids use of the "K" word and is actually more accurate.



--

stein(at)steinair.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:15 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

Guys,



Before everyone gets too carried away try to look at this pragmatically.

This obviously is a mis-understanding that has gotten WAY out of control.

While Brian is a good guy, he's obviously emotionally attached to his work

(that's not a bad thing).  The result of this is his initial and follow on

responses to inquiries was less than usefull ("up yours" gets you nowhere)

in settling any confusion and probably didn't help the situation out any.



My point is this....I'm not attacking Brian in anyway, nor Defending the

other guys.  What I am pointing out is that what probably could have been

taken care of with some thoughtfull and factual emails/letters back and

forth has grown beyond what it should have.  Their initial request was sent

via email, which is hardly a legal "served" paper complaint - they needed to

be educated, but that has to happen in a polite and proper way - even if the

initial complaint wasn't so nice.  You always get more with honey than with

vinegar.  My opinion is that an initial response should have perhaps been

crafted less defensively and listed more historical facts listing the past

development of said data.



As someone who is in the middle of a legally complex aviation "thing" right

now, I've learned some VERY important lessons.  #1 is that "we" as builders

and business people are very emotional people and are emotionally attached

to most everything we do.  Lawyers on the other hand have a good talent of

remaning emotionally detached from issues they are involved in - which is a

very good thing when you need them on your side. You'll notice that instead

of responding to the "up yours" email the guy politetly said he'd forward it

to legal counsel - why? - because they can take a completely un-emotional

look at it.  Something that is nearly impossible for us to do personally.



Anyway, I'm not defending either person.  I know Brian to be a decent person

so I'm fairly confident he didn't go into this trying to step on anyones

toes.  Conversely, I know the guys at Kitplanes (as both a builder and a

business) and I can say that I also know they are very good people that

truly care about homebuilders.  When is the last time you saw a Cessna 140,

Bonanza, 172, Restored Aeronca, or other certificated plane as their cover

story?  I've found EAA really starting to diverge from the "E"

(experimental) part of their business - but that is their choice and

marketing strategy.  After working with the Kitplanes guys I can say that

they are truly listening to the community and trying to craft a magazine for

and about builders...not the guy who spent a gagillion $$'s restoring his

Comanche (or whatever).  I know executives at both magazines and while they

each have their own "view of the world", I can say both are decent sets of

people.



Well, in closing I'm hoping cooler heads can prevail here because no good

ever comes of things like this other than a lot of bad press, hurt feelings,

mis-understandings and truly everyone looses.  I'd urge both sides here to

step back, take a few deep breaths and re-evaluate the process they are

going through.  I hate to see honest builders like Brian getting stepped on

for something that might have been able to be avoided, as well as I hate to

see the guys at Kitplanes being overly aggressive, because it's not their

sole purpose or nature...



Just my 2 cents as usual, and no ill will towards either party, I respect

them both.



Cheers,

Stein.



[quote]--

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:20 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

Keep in mind that Avweb is now owned and operated by Belvoir, partly 

because the creators of Avweb were threatened by the aviation litigation 

attorney Allen Wolk and couldn't afford to fight.

Perhaps a bunch of letters of complaint to the other Belvoir 

publications, such as Av Consumer, Lt Plane Maintenance, IFR, etc and 

discontinuing those publications might get their attention.

Do NOT archive

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

bicyclop(at)pacbell.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:24 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

If they are complaining about your use of "w" for wood and such, try

capitalizing them so as to be different.



Pax,



Ed Holyoke

Do not archive



--

3edcft6(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:33 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

Brian Meyette wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I got an email this morning from a Phil Penny at Belvoir Media Group,

 claiming that Kitplanes magazine owns the homebuilt plane vendor directory

 spreadsheet I created this fall from various sources, mainly the Internet.

 He claims it's theirs because I used similar codes as they did in their

 "pay-per-view" directory, like "wf" for wood & fabric, "m" for metal, etc. 

Stuff like this really gets on my nerves.  I think it is always good to 
	


remind everyone that copyright and patent laws were written to promote 

the free exchange of ideas, not to give someone exclusive eternal rights 

to something.  In this case I don't see how they can claim rights to the 

data.  I would change  your logical abbreviations to symbols or maybe 

graphics and then see what their complaint is.  Another idea is to make 

it user maintained.  So an automated site would let users submit 

corrections to the data.  That way you can say the data is entered by 

any number of people and can't possibly be theirs.  I would be glad to 

help build the pages need to do this if you like.



I have a possible solution though.  If the fight with their lawyers 

becomes more than it is worth, just have someone else put it up on their 

web site.  When they find out about it just move it again.  I'm sure 

there are several people here that have web sites up. I have a few web 

sites I would be glad to post it on.  Though none of them are aviation 

related, I would even be willing to make an aviation related site just 

for this.  Of course I would eventually end up having other things there 

too. 



-- 

Chris W

KE5GIX



"Protect your digital freedom and privacy, eliminate DRM, 

learn more at http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm"

cjensen(at)dts9000.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:15 am Post subject: Kitplanes attack

I was unaware that Belvoir published all those magazines as well as Kit

Planes.  I've lined their pockets more than a little over the years.

One habit of this publisher that is pretty annoying is the subscription

renewal solicitation.  Even after entering a 2-year renewal, within a

few months, one starts receiving "oh, no, hurry, your subscription is

about to expire, renew now before you go to hell", or something to that

effect.  It's seems obvious that Belvoir is primarily interested in

collecting subscriptions and keeping your money.  If I responded to all

of the renewal requests, I'd be paid up well into the next decade and

beyond.



This seems quite intentional and is, at best, a pretty dodgy practice.

Illegal, no, but it doesn't climb very high on the business ethics pole

either.  Given this practice, which I categorize as less than sterling,

it does make me wonder about their intent with Barry's data list.  Did

they just misunderstand Barry's intent, were they being aggressive or

were they being something else.  However, one is inclined to give

Belvoir the benefit of some doubt, based on Stein's assuranced that

these are good people, but so far, I count two strikes against them.

Let's see how they settle this matter with Barry--I'll let that be the

tie breaker in my mind. 



Chuck Jensen

Do Not Archive 

--

bill(at)vondane.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:08 am Post subject: Kitplanes attack

I have been talking with Brian and have decided to build a community web 

site to house the database.....so all the content can be community owned and 

managed...  I have my own web server so its no biggy for me...  I also have 

a programmer who can do the job for me...



I will also add some other features like forums, blogs, builder pages and 

logs, photo and video galleries, downloads and etc.....also all community 

owned and managed...



We'll make it community owned and all the data will be posted by the 

community.....and the site will be free of course...



It will take me a bit to get this going, but I will keep you posted...



-Bill

www.rv8a.com





---

pbesing(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:31 am Post subject: Kitplanes attack

What a bunch of losers...this is virtual space...don't respond to an email, don't engage with them, etc.  They would have to subpeona your ISP to get your contact information just to send you a certified letter.  



Brian Meyette <brianpublic2(at)starband.net> wrote:  [quote]--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Meyette" 



I got an email this morning from a Phil Penny at Belvoir Media Group,

claiming that Kitplanes magazine owns the homebuilt plane vendor directory

spreadsheet I created this fall from various sources, mainly the Internet.

He claims it's theirs because I used similar codes as they did in their

"pay-per-view" directory, like "wf" for wood & fabric, "m" for metal, etc. I

guess he thought I should have used "Z" for metal and "QP" for wood &

fabric. He also objected to the fact  that my directory has data similar to

theirs. Well, I hope it's similar; otherwise someone has incorrect data; a

plane's wingspan, for example, is a rather fixed value.



It's bad enough that these people are so cheap they even charge subscribers

to view things on their web page, but this really takes the cake.



Phil threatened to sue me if I don't take it down, and I told Phil it wasn't

theirs or copied from theirs, and I won't be taking it down. So, now he's

"referring this to our legal counsel". Apparently, there is no limit to

their greed.



If anyone wants a copy of it, I suggest getting it now. Also, several people

have given me updated info to put into it, so if you know of any incorrect

or missing data, please let me know, and I will update it with that info.



I'm only on a couple lists, but if you're on other homebuilder lists, you

might want to forward this URL to other lists you are on, so more people [quote][b]

rv7(at)b4.ca
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:22 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

On 10:25 2006-12-30 Paul Besing <pbesing(at)yahoo.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   What a bunch of losers...this is virtual space...don't respond to an

 email, don't engage with them, etc.  They would have to subpeona your

 ISP to get your contact information just to send you a certified

 letter.


	


No, it's much easier than that.  All they have to do is send an official

sounding letter to your ISP, and the ISP will pull your website in fear of

being the target of litigation.



Don't laugh, it's been done to many websites that post information that is

contrary or dissenting to a majority (or a corporate) opinion.  Most large

national ISP's don't want the hassle, so they err on the side of caution

and direct their customer to pull the content.



Some smaller ISP's are willing to look at each case as it comes in, and

take the time to make a determination whether there's any copyright

infringement, slander, libel, etc. that needs to be removed.  If not,

they'll fight.  Maybe all that's necessary is to have a talk with your ISP

and see whether they will back you up.



-Rob

tedd(at)vansairforce.org
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:03 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

The best approach is probably to not build a database yourself, offline, and

then publish it online.  Since it's bound to contain much of the same data as

someone's proprietary database, you're open to allegations of copyright

infringement.  And the database itself could form a "preponderance of evidence"

against you.



Instead, build the database in the open, on the web, perhaps using wiki

software, and giving all references.  Then you're safe.  Plus, the workload can

be spread out among multiple people.



Some people may disparage Kitplanes' publisher, but they do have a right to

protect their effort in building their database.  Do an end-run around that

by building a database cooperatively, out in the open, which YOU have a right

to do.



---



Tedd McHenry

Surrey, BC, Canada

DO NOT ARCHIVE

pbesing(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject: Kitplanes attack

Good point...didn't think of that.  Well, if you have your own web server, then it's not a problem I guess...

  do not archive



Rob Prior <rv7(at)b4.ca> wrote:

  [quote]--> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior" 



On 10:25 2006-12-30 Paul Besing wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   What a bunch of losers...this is virtual space...don't respond to an

 email, don't engage with them, etc. They would have to subpeona your

 ISP to get your contact information just to send you a certified

 letter.


	


No, it's much easier than that. All they have to do is send an official

sounding letter to your ISP, and the ISP will pull your website in fear of

being the target of litigation.



Don't laugh, it's been done to many websites that post information that is

contrary or dissenting to a [quote][b]

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