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romott(at)sprintmail.com
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 Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 7:38 am Post subject: 91.205 (WAAS) and Garmin 400/500 |
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A comment on the three required approaches.
I used a Apollo SL 60 and King 155 VOR and GS to tke my instrument check
ride. (No DME or ADF). The SL 60 is 129 certified for enroute and terminal.
As long as the permanant data base depicts the required waypoints (NDB), the
SL 60 is qualified to do the approaches and navigate to the missed approach
waypoints.
Then you can do ILS, VOR and Localizer approaches to meet the requirement.
And incidentally, the new 400/500 WAAS simulator is at Garmin now. Neat - a
glide slope signal is generated for the CDI as soon as you hit the FAF for
GPS approaches.
Incidentally, the instrument rating is highly effective at making you a
better pilot - however it does not enable you to do approaches down to
minimums. We have had an alarming bunch of crashes around the Carolinas for
folks trying to do instrument approaches when the ceiling was 300' and
visibility of a mile or less. Two Cirruses, two C182's and a twin Cessna
made the unwise decision to fly ILS approaches to destinations where the
weather was absolutely lousy. At least 14 souls lost in less than three
months around here. Absolutely appalling!!!!
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sportav8r(at)GMAIL.COM
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:08 am Post subject: 91.205 (WAAS) and Garmin 400/500 |
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In case you're wondering, Ron, I had forgotten that VOR and localizer
were two distinct approaches <blush>; I badly need to quit simply
reading and start actually flying this stuff. But right now my plane
has only a VFR GPS for nav equipment, not even a VOR - just a _slight_
impediment to gaining familiarity 
Upgraded full glass panel is under way on the pay-as-I-go plan.
-Bill B.
On 1/5/07, Ron Brown <romott(at)sprintmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
A comment on the three required approaches.
I used a Apollo SL 60 and King 155 VOR and GS to tke my instrument check
ride. (No DME or ADF). The SL 60 is 129 certified for enroute and terminal.
As long as the permanant data base depicts the required waypoints (NDB), the
SL 60 is qualified to do the approaches and navigate to the missed approach
waypoints.
Then you can do ILS, VOR and Localizer approaches to meet the requirement.
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oldbob(at)BeechOwners.com
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:46 am Post subject: 91.205 (WAAS) and Garmin 400/500 |
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Good Afternoon Bill,
Chances are you already know this, but just in case
there is any question!!
Many VOR, ILS, Localizer and even NDB approaches
require the use of an ADF or DME for them to be
executed. Sometimes that information will be in the
title such as "VOR DME to Rwy 31" Other times it will
just be a note somewhere on the page that says "DME
required" or "ADF required".
To shoot those approaches you must be so equipped
UNLESS you have an IFR approved GPS. It does NOT have
to be an approach approved set. One that is only
approved for Enroute and Terminal guidance is
sufficient.
The GPS may be used in Lieu of ADF and/or DME for
almost all purposes anywhere in the United States
National Airspace System.
One big No/No. You cannot use the GPS to execute an
NDB approach unless it is equipped with an overlay
approach. In that case, it will say "ADF (or GPS) to
Rwy 31".
A further restriction is that the GPS being used must
have a current data card installed and it must be used
to obtain the data.
Any other time when the words ADF or DME are included
in the approach name or where there is a note stating
that an ADF or a DME is required, the GPS may be used
for whatever purpose would have required an ADF or
DME.
Unfortunately, that provision is not well known. You
can check it out in the AIM section 1-1-19. paragraph
f.,1 (a) through (d), and g.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
--- Bill Boyd <sportav8r(at)gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
<sportav8r(at)gmail.com>
In case you're wondering, Ron, I had forgotten that
VOR and localizer
were two distinct approaches <blush>; I badly need
to quit simply
reading and start actually flying this stuff. But
right now my plane
has only a VFR GPS for nav equipment, not even a VOR
- just a _slight_
impediment to gaining familiarity
Upgraded full glass panel is under way on the
pay-as-I-go plan.
-Bill B.
On 1/5/07, Ron Brown <romott(at)sprintmail.com> wrote:
>
Brown" <romott(at)sprintmail.com>
>
> A comment on the three required approaches.
>
> I used a Apollo SL 60 and King 155 VOR and GS to
tke my instrument check
> ride. (No DME or ADF). The SL 60 is 129 certified
for enroute and terminal.
> As long as the permanant data base depicts the
required waypoints (NDB), the
> SL 60 is qualified to do the approaches and
navigate to the missed approach
> waypoints.
>
> Then you can do ILS, VOR and Localizer approaches
to meet the requirement.
>
browse
Subscriptions page,
FAQ,
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
Web Forums!
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sales(at)6440autoparts.co
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject: 91.205 (WAAS) and Garmin 400/500 |
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| Quote: | Bob you said:Any other time when the >words ADF or DME are included
in the approach name or where there is a >note stating
that an ADF or a DME is required, the >GPS may be used
for whatever purpose would have ?>required an ADF or
DME.Unfortunately, that
provision is not well known. You
can check it out in the AIM section 1-1->19. paragraph
f.,1 (a) through (d), and g.
|
Can you be more specific ? Are you refering to "
NOTE-
This approval does not alter the conditions and requirements for use of GPS
to fly existing nonprecision instrument approach procedures as defined in
the GPS approach overlay program. "
or are you refering to: "(6) Charted requirements for ADF and/or DME can be
met using the GPS system, except for use as the principal instrument
approach navigation source."
The specifics seem rather sketchy for me to come to any real conclusion. It
just makes no sense that a RAIM GPS can be used for substitution of NDB/DME
wp's and not be allowed on an accual NDB approach since they are not very
precise to start with.
Randy
---
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oldbob(at)BeechOwners.com
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:10 pm Post subject: 91.205 (WAAS) and Garmin 400/500 |
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Good Evening Randy,
Both of the paragraphs you have quoted tell the truth.
The simple explanation is that an IFR approved GPS CAN
be used for all of those functions under the
provisions of "GPS in Lieu of DME and ADF".
Why did they not allow it to be used to execute an NDB
approach? Because their policy was that all waypoints
had to be auto-sequenced for any approach flown by
GPS.
The operator would have been required to either load a
way point or think a little bit about what they were
doing.
When we were fighting to get the "In Lieu Of"
provisions approved, every FAA person I talked to
agreed that doing as you suggest would be better than
what we now have for an NDB approach, but it didn't
fit FAA policy. We got what we could, but not
everything we wanted.
If you have any more questions concerning the
application of the current policy, please ask.
The key thing is that: For flight in the USNAS we
don't need a DME or an ADF as long as we have an IFR
approved GPS with at least enroute and terminal
capability.
The language in 1-1-19 gets a little convoluted
because so many different departments of the FAA had
to sign off on the final interpretation. Each one
wanted to add their own two bits worth.
It took us three years to get it through in even that
very rough form.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
--- 6440 Auto Parts <sales(at)6440autoparts.com> wrote:
[quote]
Parts" <sales(at)6440autoparts.com>
>Bob you said:Any other time when the >words ADF or
DME are included
>in the approach name or where there is a >note
stating
>that an ADF or a DME is required, the >GPS may be
used
>for whatever purpose would have ?>required an ADF
or
>DME.Unfortunately, that
>provision is not well known. You
>can check it out in the AIM section 1-1->19.
paragraph
>f.,1 (a) through (d), and g.
Can you be more specific ? Are you refering to "
NOTE-
This approval does not alter the conditions and
requirements for use of GPS
to fly existing nonprecision instrument approach
procedures as defined in
the GPS approach overlay program. "
or are you refering to: "(6) Charted requirements
for ADF and/or DME can be
met using the GPS system, except for use as the
principal instrument
approach navigation source."
The specifics seem rather sketchy for me to come to
any real conclusion. It
just makes no sense that a RAIM GPS can be used for
substitution of NDB/DME
wp's and not be allowed on an accual NDB approach
since they are not very
precise to start with.
Randy
---
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sales(at)6440autoparts.co
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:26 pm Post subject: 91.205 (WAAS) and Garmin 400/500 |
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Bob I'm to sure if I want to laugh or cry. I appreciate your
willingness to share but not sure if it would help me understand since
seemingly there is no logical understanding. Thank goodness as far as I know
anyway there is an accual GPS approach at most any airport that has an NDB
approach.
Randy
---
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 3:45 pm Post subject: 91.205 (WAAS) and Garmin 400/500 |
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Good Evening Randy,
I am sure there is a logical understanding available, it just seems I am not able to explain it very well.
If you can frame an individual question, I would be happy to attempt an individual answer that may make it a bit more clear.
Incidentally, during the time we were working on the approval, I did ask for the right to use the GPS to shoot NDB approaches. One of the things I was told was that it really wouldn't make any difference because all NDB approaches would either have an overlay or a standalone GPS to the same runway with the same or lower minima. Unfortunately the FAA policy has changed since then and they will no longer approve a new overlay. There have been a few new NDB approaches placed in service with no overlay and with no alternative GPS approach. I don't like it either, but that is the way it happened.
One thing that I have found out is that there are very few folks who care. Consequently, we have very little chance of getting anything changed. If I delve back into my wandering mind a bit, I imagine I could come up with a half dozen or more things we asked for and didn't get because not enough people took the time to back our efforts.
Such is life.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease and all that jazz!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Ancient Aviator
Stearman N3977A
Brookeridge Air Park LL22
Downers Grove, IL 60516
630 985-8503
In a message dated 1/5/2007 5:28:37 P.M. Central Standard Time, sales(at)6440autoparts.com writes:
| Quote: | Bob I'm to sure if I want to laugh or cry. I appreciate your
willingness to share but not sure if it would help me understand since
seemingly there is no logical understanding. Thank goodness as far as I know
anyway there is an accual GPS approach at most any airport that has an NDB
approach.
Randy
|
[quote][b]
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Jerry Grimmonpre'
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 144
Location: Huntley, Illinois 60142
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:14 pm Post subject: 91.205 (WAAS) and Garmin 400/500 |
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Do Not Archive
Hi Bob ...
Thanks for your usual fine contributions and the clearing of the air for
everyone's understanding.
I've learned a lot from you over the many years of our plying the skies
together plus here on the electric list. Have a wonderful New Year.
Regards ...
Jerry Grimmonpre'
| Quote: |
<oldbob(at)beechowners.com>
Good Evening Randy,
Both of the paragraphs you have quoted tell the truth.
The simple explanation is that an IFR approved GPS CAN
be used for all of those functions under the
provisions of "GPS in Lieu of DME and ADF".
Why did they not allow it to be used to execute an NDB
approach? Because their policy was that all waypoints
had to be auto-sequenced for any approach flown by
GPS.
The operator would have been required to either load a
way point or think a little bit about what they were
doing.
When we were fighting to get the "In Lieu Of"
provisions approved, every FAA person I talked to
agreed that doing as you suggest would be better than
what we now have for an NDB approach, but it didn't
fit FAA policy. We got what we could, but not
everything we wanted.
If you have any more questions concerning the
application of the current policy, please ask.
The key thing is that: For flight in the USNAS we
don't need a DME or an ADF as long as we have an IFR
approved GPS with at least enroute and terminal
capability.
The language in 1-1-19 gets a little convoluted
because so many different departments of the FAA had
to sign off on the final interpretation. Each one
wanted to add their own two bits worth.
It took us three years to get it through in even that
very rough form.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
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BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:38 pm Post subject: 91.205 (WAAS) and Garmin 400/500 |
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In a message dated 1/5/2007 6:16:11 P.M. Central Standard Time, jerry(at)mc.net writes:
| Quote: | Regards ...
Jerry Grimmonpre' |
Good Evening Jerry,
Thank You For the Very Kind Words!
It has been fun, hasn't it?
How's that project going?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
Do Not Archive
[quote][b]
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