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Model 4 engine swap

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Lyle Persels

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 34
Location: Osceola, IA

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 5:45 am Post subject: Model 4 engine swap

I'm nearing completion of replacement of the Rotax 912 UL with a 912  

ULS in my Model 4. Does this constitute a major change that will  

require a new FAA inspection, signoff, certificate, and test period?  

Or can I just go fly?



Oh, by the way, my old 912 UL with about 440 hours is for sale. No  

price set. What's it worth?



Lyle Persels

dcsfoto

Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 120

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:03 am Post subject: Re: Model 4 engine swap

look at your limitations. they should tell you if you need to contact the FAA.

if it was me I would find out the name of the local FAA airworthiness supervisor. call that person,if he says ok without reentering phase 1 again you need to write him a letter confirming your talk.

if you need help contact me.

crazyivan

Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 62
Location: Pensacola

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Model 4 engine swap

When I changed props from the GSC to the Ivo, I called my local FSDO.  Since it was a "like" swap (meaning both are ground adjustable, 3 blade) recommended by the kit and prop manufacturers, my FSDO guy said I didn't need to perform the 5 hour test period.  



Since the 914UL and ULS are similar and supported by the manufacturer you might be able to get away with a minimal or no test period.  But, since the aircraft registration lists the engine then there might be some re-registration paperwork hassle to go along with it.  



Call your FSDO and they should give you the legal ruling.  I found them to be friendly and helpful.  http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/dsm/contact/

_________________
Dave
Piper PA-22/20

dwight purdy

Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:35 pm Post subject: Model 4 engine swap

Have always wondered about this issue. When you look up an aircraft 

registration on the FAA web site it say Rotax ,I believe followed by the 

word All.



                   Dwight

At 11:25 AM 1/4/2007 -0800, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



When I changed props from the GSC to the Ivo, I called my local 

FSDO.  Since it was a "like" swap (meaning both are ground adjustable, 3 

blade) recommended by the kit and prop manufacturers, my FSDO guy said I 

didn't need to perform the 5 hour test period.



Since the 914UL and ULS are similar and supported by the manufacturer you 

might be able to get away with a minimal or no test period.  But, since 

the aircraft registration lists the engine then there might be some 

re-registration paperwork hassle to go along with it.



Call your FSDO and they should give you the legal ruling.  I found them to 

be friendly and 

helpful.  http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/dsm/contact/



--------

Dave

Speedster 912 UL





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=85450#85450







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1:34 PM


	




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_________________
dwight
model II

clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:11 pm Post subject: Model 4 engine swap

I changed my engine out in 1999.  Had 912ULS changed to 912ULS.  Just fax 

info to FAA with your intentions and they will reply back very quickly with 

instructions on what they expect.  Did t his with engine, props, landing 

gear, and vortex generators.  Good luck.  Clint



From: dwight purdy <dpurdy(at)comteck.com>

Reply-To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Model 4 engine swap

Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 17:34:00 -0500






Have always wondered about this issue. When you look up an aircraft 

registration on the FAA web site it say Rotax ,I believe followed by the 

word All.



                   Dwight

At 11:25 AM 1/4/2007 -0800, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



When I changed props from the GSC to the Ivo, I called my local FSDO.  

Since it was a "like" swap (meaning both are ground adjustable, 3 blade) 

recommended by the kit and prop manufacturers, my FSDO guy said I didn't 

need to perform the 5 hour test period.



Since the 914UL and ULS are similar and supported by the manufacturer you 

might be able to get away with a minimal or no test period.  But, since the 

aircraft registration lists the engine then there might be some 

re-registration paperwork hassle to go along with it.



Call your FSDO and they should give you the legal ruling.  I found them to 

be friendly and helpful.  

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/field_offices/fsdo/dsm/contact/



--------

Dave

Speedster 912 UL





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=85450#85450







--

1:34 PM


	




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JimmieBlackwell(at)austin
Guest

Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 3:41 pm Post subject: Model 4 engine swap

It is amazing the difference between FSDO's  I did exactly the same thing, 

changed a GSC to IVO.  My FSDO in San Antonio required me to perform a 5 

hour test period.  However, they were very friendly and helpful on the 

documentation.



Jimmie

---

Lyle Persels

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 34
Location: Osceola, IA

Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: Model 4 engine swap

Thanks to all who responded to my question about the necessity for FAA blessing my swap from a 912 UL to a 912 ULS. I'll try to respond to each question or comment:

	Jimmie B.:  No I didn't have any concerns about the engine at 450 hours. Everything I know about the engine suggests that it's extremely reliable and trouble free and is likely to perform well far beyond the recommended 1200 hour TBO. I was a bit tired of tinkering with the characteristic low rpm roughness, and I wanted to see what the increased horsepower would do for the already excellent performance. I'm not aware of any expensive repairs that are frequently encountered in higher time 912 UL engines.



	Jacques V.: Required mods are rather minimal. While the engine mount dimensions are identical, it was necessary to replace the engine mount with a new one with greater wall thickness in the tubing and a couple more diagonal braces. The deeper oil tank along with changed fittings might give you some trouble. I opted to use the oil tank from the old UL rather than modify the cowl and I also found it advantageous to use different oil fittings in a couple of places. Because of my instrumentation, I used the old temperature senders rather than the ones provided with the engine. I had a Warp Drive 70" three-bladed prop. I had to buy a new hub and mounting hardware to fit the revised mounting dimensions. Warp Drive very slightly modified the blade hubs and checked and refurbished the blades at no charge. Good people! Then there were a couple of minor electrical changes and that's about it. John McBean is very helpful with specifics.



	Finally, with regard to FAA involvement. My FAA registration does list the engine type as Rotax (all). The restrictions on my airworthiness certificate state that in case of changes, I need only comply with FAR Part 43, Appendix 1. Appendix 1, as I read it, defines powerplant major alterations relating to engine alterations, but not to an engine change. Presumably changing one engine for an identical engine would not constitute a powerplant major alteration. Changing from powerplant to another almost identical powerplant when both are classified identically in the FAA registration—well that's not specifically spelled out and may be subject to varying interpretations by different FSDOs. I'll probably make a call and discuss it with the local office.



Thanks to all for your help and suggestions.



Lyle



On 01 4, 07, at 9:55 AM, Jimmie Blackwell wrote:

[quote]Lyle

I am considering changing my 912UL out for a Jabiru, so would sure like to know how this turns out.

My 912UL does not have quiet as many hours as yours but was wondering if you were starting to have some concerns about it.  My thought is to sell my 912 UL before it starts developing expensive problems.

Thank you.

Jimmie

---

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:44 am Post subject: Model 4 engine swap

At 05:36 PM 1/6/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Changing from powerplant to another almost identical powerplant when both 

are classified identically in the FAA registration—well that's not 

specifically spelled out and may be subject to varying interpretations by 

different FSDOs. I'll probably make a call and discuss it with the local 

office.


	


Lyle,

         Remember that more important than the FAA is your insurance 

company. There have been cases of denial-of-coverage based on incorrectly 

determining what is a major change. I'd either get the FAA's written 

recommendation or do some Phase I testing.

Guy Buchanan

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Lyle Persels

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 34
Location: Osceola, IA

Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:09 am Post subject: Model 4 engine swap

Thanks for the tip, Guy. I hadn't thought of that.



Lyle



Do not archive.



On 01 7, 07, at 9:28 AM, Guy Buchanan wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 At 05:36 PM 1/6/2007, you wrote:

> Changing from powerplant to another almost identical powerplant  

> when both are classified identically in the FAA registration—well  

> that's not specifically spelled out and may be subject to varying  

> interpretations by different FSDOs. I'll probably make a call and  

> discuss it with the local office.



 Lyle,

         Remember that more important than the FAA is your insurance  

 company. There have been cases of denial-of-coverage based on  

 incorrectly determining what is a major change. I'd either get the  

 FAA's written recommendation or do some Phase I testing.

 Guy Buchanan

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:35 pm Post subject: Model 4 engine swap

Guy's comments are right on the money.  I recall reading of an airplane, I 

think one of the early Rutan designs where there was fuel system 

modification that was unreported then a number of flight hours on the new 

system and then a return to the exact previous system then an accident. 

insurance coverage was denied because of the unreported "major alterations". 

Read your coverage.  Violation of the FARs voids the insurance company's 

liability.



Mine reads as follows, "Exclusions, iv)  if the aircraft is operated in 

violation of any Experimental Operating Limitations prescribed and 

specifically granted by the FAA for your aircraft;"



Lowell

---

Bob

Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Damascus, Maryland, USA

Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:58 am Post subject: Re: Model 4 engine swap (or any major change)

I'm a new guy to the group and just bought a part-built model V kit.  I still have an A&P from when I did that for a living, but now work as an engineer and usually on big planes.  



Going to higher power engines is pretty common and undocumented changes happen.  However, from the legal standpoint, I can comfortably say that the change from a 80hp Rotax to 100hp is a major modification and the FAA believes that they should be notified. I'd expect questions about how you've changed your (legally and insurance-required) flight manual to reflect the changes in climb rate, take-off distance, fuel consumption, range, etc.  If the inspector isn't that familiar with the R-912 series, possibly whether you've had to change tach markings, or your Instructions for Continuing Airworthiness (ICA) to reflect any change in engine TBO.  



Write down what you did in a letter to the local FSDO in very factual form, like a log entry, including your Kitfox s/n, N#, engine type & s/n (old and new), and attach copies of the changed pages of your manual.  Include a statement that there is no change to ICA or weight and balance.  I'd also add a sentence about how the factory-delivered kits used the same engine and FWF components, or how similar this is to existing and approved airplanes just like yours.  The FAA is looking for the engineering basis of the changes and you just have to document them.  At the end of the letter, add that you look forward to the response and are ready to answer any further questions.  This letter will ultimately go into the permanent archives for your airplane's N#, so don't write something that might haunt you later. (How you hate dealing with the FAA wouldn't be a good thing.)  Have your local IA or A&P proof read it.  I call the local FSDO, get an inspector's name to put on the letter, then fax him a copy before mailing.  It just goes faster if you have somebody to talk to.  



One other consideration if you're thinking about not reporting is that the change can affect your sale of the plane later.  The buyer's pre-buy inspection will catch the change and so will his insurance company.  I just turned down buying an airplane, but it was an extreme case.  The log showed the airplane had a 912 and the actual airplane had a 582! 



Bob

A&P, Aircraft Systems Engineer

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Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay.

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