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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:49 pm Post subject: HKS engines

Which HKS engine do you have??   How was the installation and hoe does it

operate??  Any problems??



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Mnflyer

Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 78

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:48 am Post subject: Re: HKS engines

Hi Noel, if your asking me, the HKS I converted to is their only one the 700E, its 60 hp (at)6200 RPMs,  I got my engine & mount from Lost Hill Aviation in Mo. It was fairly straight forward to install had to modify the upper round cowl with two bumps for cylinder clearance and modify the lower boot cowl to allow air out for cooling. The engine is a jewel it starts and runs very nice and smooth, does require about 6 min. to warm up to get to the required oil temp for takeoff. I used my 66" tech III GSC prop from the 582, pitch setting was reduced from 14 degrees to 13.5 degrees the takeoff roll increased by about 100' and the rate of climb went down by about 100' but my cruise increased by a solid 5 MPH. The fuel burn went from 4.25 to 4.5 gph with the 582 to 3 GPH MAX with the HKS, thats running at 5700 RPMs at cruise. I flew it 125 hrs  since last April and I really like and now the TBO has been upped to 1000 hrs and the cost of parts to OH is about $1500, plus any good mechanic can overhaul it, no pressed togather crankshaft etc.

I have absolutely no problems just change oil & filter and add gas, it has used NO oil in the 125 hrs. there isn't 15 CC of oil in the breather bottle in 125 hrs. The ignition and alternator are so quite that I can hear my radio clearly now unlike the Rotax (and I tried all the fixs for the Rotax still always had noise) nothing now and I like that.

You don't have to rejet or adjust the carbs every spring and fall, spark plugs are good for 200+ hrs and the operating cost are less than 1/2 of the 582 per hour.

_________________
GB
MNFlyer
Flying a HKS Kitfox III

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:10 pm Post subject: HKS engines

I'm flying a model III-A (Probably a prototype Mod III)  with the 582.  I am

planning a trip all the way across Canada in '09 and at the present time I'm

a bit worried that the 582 may not be the best choice of engines.  If I

change out the engine I'll have to get it inspected again and may have to do

another fly off.  That means that if I change out it will have to be done

before summer '08.



I believe the carbs are altitude compensating.  There are times here, at

~10' ASL the pressure altitude gets down way below sea level.  On the trip I

expect I may have to fly as high as 10,000' will the HKS carbs accommodate

that.



The other question is on the weight of the installation.  Considering you

removed your unnecessary plumbing what was your weight change overall??



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:55 pm Post subject: HKS engines

Noel,  I have no HKS experience but I do have alot of Rotax experience.

I can only go by what I have understood on HKS engines from  others.



For float operations you will be have les performance than your 582.

I have no problem going on a 3 hour x country in "MY" 582 as I know the 

maintenance and history of it .  Now across Canada?  Sure I would do it in a 

582 over a HKS anyday based on the great success that I have had  on Rotax 2 

strokes.



If you are adamant on having a 4 stroke  first choice would be 912 UL for 

your plane. They are proven and have good performance for what your 

intentions are and better fuel economy that your 582.  ON top of that you 

will pick up 10 to 15 mph cruise on less fuel.  That being said the 912 is a 

Rotax and a price comes with it.  You can get decent 912s for 8 to 10k  with 

low hours easily.



That is my vote,



Dave

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lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:43 pm Post subject: HKS engines

Noel,



For the first year or two one of the guys in our group that flew the annual 

Idaho back country trip was in a Model IV with 582.  First, I must say that 

we always flew at the speed of the slowest airplane.  If my memory serves me 

his was not the determining factor in this.  He did, however find it a bit 

more of a challenge gaining altitude to over fly the numerous mountain 

ranges that separated us from our various destinations.  We would orbit 

above him coaching him through the canyons and over the saddles.  He was 

pretty good at finding the lifts and it was like a college course watching 

him fly. He didn't like cutting broad corners as we sometimes did as we 

usually flew over the highways or roads, so sometiimes he deviated a bit 

from our course, keeping a bit closer to the roads.  I remember one time 

that we lost sight of him in this fashion and a bit later one of the guys 

flying a railroad track announced what seemed to him to be a Cessna 195 

closing on him on his nose.  Well somehow our 582 driver had gotten ahead of 

us and was having some fun.



I guess the point of this is that I gained a profound respect for that 

engine.  With the exception of it being relatively more thirsty than the 

912s it was a fine performer and with prudence and TLC, I  believe it will 

get you where you want to go.  Regarding fuel. with the 20 gal. max on the 

Rans that went with us.  It was the Rans rather than the 582 that determined 

range and planned fuel stops.



Lowell



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Mnflyer

Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 78

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: HKS engines

Hi Noel, the weight of the HKS for my installation was 9 lbs more than the 582 I removed I did add 3 lbs to the tail that gave me a total of 12 lbs more, I added a couple of other items such as elevator trim, an Aero Flash beacon  etc which increased the weight a total of 15 lbs.  The carbs on the HKS are the exact same carbs used on the Rotax 912s aside from jetting of course and they are altitude compensating, if you want more mixture control GreenSky Adventure of Fla has a mixture control that works on the HKS same control also works on the 582. As for performance if your plane flies good with a 582 be it on wheels, floats or skis it will fly as good or better with the HKS. The HKS is equal in every way to the 582, with the exception that it will run 1000+ hrs between overhauls, cost 1/2 to overhaul vs the 582, burns .66% of the fuel that a 582 will (3 gph vs 4.5) 

As for comparison to the 912: the 912 is 80 hp so yes it will preform better, but the 912 is double or more the cost of the HKS (in my book the 20hp is not worth the extra $7500.00) the cost to overhaul a 912 is just about as much as a new engine, there are service bulletins and AD's issued every 3 /4 weeks some costly some are nuisance but they are required, the HKS has one bulletin on the carb sockets same as the Rotax. The procedure for starting the HKS is  turn on the master switch turn on the electric fuel pump push the starter button turn the ignition switches and let the engine warm up for about 6 min. to get the oil temp up shut down is also straight forward let the engine idle for 2 mins and turn off the ignition switches no need for special startup and shut down procedures to keep the engine from knocking the carbs off. 

Before I comitted to converting to the HKS I researched the various engines that were readily available and the HKS won out, having flow 100 hrs with a VW engine I'm not a fan of it, I really don't like liquid cooling  and single ignition so the heavy Subs were out, that left the Rotax 912 and the Jabiru engines both are good engine but very expensive and again  don't care for the liquid cooling of the 912. 

I had no problems with the 582 but it required constant maint. adjusting the carbs every spring and fall, changing spark plugs every 25 hrs, using oil and 4.5 gph fuel a 300 hr TBO and the constant thing of never really trusting it, as I posted I put 125 hr on the HKS this last year from April to Dec 28th if I had overhauled the 582 it would be 42% used up. I keep excellent records and the cost per hour to own and operate the HKS vs the 582 is $11.61 per hr to $24.03 per hr. for the 582.

I flew the 582 for 278 hrs so I feel I know both engines and I would never go back to the Rotax 582 again and I now feel comfortable flying the plane anywhere also the ignition and alternator are quite and my radio is now clear as it can be and the alternator has more power.

This is hands on experience not what I heard someone say. I spoke with many HKS owners with many types of planes from Challengers, CGS Hawks, Avid Flyers, Rans S-7s  Thunder Gulls etc all like the engine and all say they would not go back the Rotax 2 stroke they had.

_________________
GB
MNFlyer
Flying a HKS Kitfox III

edygert(at)charter.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:17 pm Post subject: HKS engines

Hi

Was that VW time in a Kitfox? If so what was the engine 

configuration,displacement,compression ratio,

prop ,etc.

Was engine maintenance,durability the main issue or performance?



   Thanks........



    Ed Dygert in TN



At 04:37 PM 1/15/2007 -0800, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



having flow 100 hrs with a VW engine I'm not a fan of it, 

.....................................



GB

MNFlyer





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=87903#87903





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11:04 AM





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11:04 AM


	




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Mnflyer

Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 78

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: HKS engines

Hi,  no it was in another plane, mainly I didn't like the lack of electical system and the hand propping, sometimes it started right up and other times one had to pull and pull on the prop, it was extremely prone to carb icing, and burned plenty of fuel, it was a 1600 CC 50 hp engine and burned 4 gph of 100 LL, had to replace several spark plug threads with helicoils as the alum threads were easy to strip out using a torque wrench and antiseize but I really didn't like the single ignition.

_________________
GB
MNFlyer
Flying a HKS Kitfox III

lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:01 pm Post subject: HKS engines

there are service bulletins and AD's issued every 3 /4 weeks some costly 

some are nuisance but they are required, the HKS has one bulletin on the 

carb sockets same as the Rotax.

 	  Quote: 	
		   GB

 MNFlyer


	




I think the every three to four weeks is a bit of an exaggeration, but that 

said.  I feel that I know just about everything there is to know about the 

912.  Lots of that has come from the service bulletins and I take great 

comfort in that.  What I would worry greatly about is if the engine I am 

running doesn't have a service bulletin history.  I don't think in my 

lifetime or any of my children's lifetime, for that matter, the perfect 

engine will be designed and built.  In some instances silence is not golden. 

I know of others that made the decision to avoid the 912 for this very 

reason and ultimately to some regret.



respectfully,



Lowell



 	  Quote: 	
		   Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=87903#87903

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:54 pm Post subject: HKS engines

20 gal U.S. is exactly what my plane carries.  Usable fuel is probably a

gallon or so less.  I have on occasion carried an additional 12.5 Gal U.S.

in the right float... Of course to use it I have to have a place to set down

to refuel the main wing tanks.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject: HKS engines

Thanks for the exact kind of info I've been looking for...  Lets see the

score now is 3-0 for HKS



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Aerobatics(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:04 am Post subject: HKS engines

These are all great engines.  The HKS is a really nice engine.   As good as it is, it just doesn't have the power of the 582.  Mark B who is  used in the HKS  ads with his Odessy... loves his but says they use  small horses in measuring HP.  In his view, it has the power of a 503 but  heavier and much more fuel efficient.  

  

 I got to fly in that plane. If it had just a bit more power, I would  use it, other than that it seems to be a wonderful engine.  

  

 Again my strip is short, and on a hot day, no wind  I like that extra  margin... if my strip was longer, I may have an HKS installed.  With my 16  gallons I could fly forever!

  

 We have a guy that just had a new HKS installed in a KF2  it will  be really interesting to compare side by side... with mine... will keep you  posted

  

 Dave

  

  

  

  [quote][b]

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:37 am Post subject: HKS engines

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Lowell Fitt [lcfitt(at)sbcglobal.net]

 I think the every three to four weeks is a bit of an exaggeration


	


I agree, Lowell. I am still on the Rotax service bulletin email system and it's far less than that. But, unless you're a mechanic, there is also a factor to consider prior to decide on an engine, and that is: Who is representing the engine in your district and what kind of service can you expect?

I my case, although I was pleased with my old 582, I wasn't with the Scandinavian Rotax dealer.



I also agree with Dave who writes: "They are all fine engines." Now, when can we expect a diesel engine light enough for a Kitfox? 



Cheers,

Michel



do not archive

<pre><b><font size  color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:01 am Post subject: HKS engines

The whole concept of auto-compensating for the CV carbs is a little off 

base. I have had these on motorcycles for years and they will absolutely run 

rich at high altitudes. They do offer a slight compensation, but the real 

advantage is that a four stroke is not near as fussy about jetting, and will 

not seize if it's off a bit. The vacuum bleed type of HAC should work with 

these carbs, not sure how fussy to adjust they are as I've never actually 

seen one.



Do not archive

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Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:58 am Post subject: HKS engines

Thanks  Dave

  

 To be  honest The 582 is rated at 64 Hp I could see myself wanting about ten more  horespower not ten less.  After all I do have to lift the floats out of the  water.

  

  

 

Noel [quote]   

   --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:04 am Post subject: HKS engines

Diesel engine???  Now you're talking!!



Low RPM, high torque, great fuel economy and altitude compensation!



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:21 am Post subject: HKS engines

If I decide to keep the 582 then I'll install an HACMAN. The two strokes

have to be critically tuned for power and to avoid passing the piston out

the exhaust port...  I've seen that one!



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Mnflyer

Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 78

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:04 am Post subject: Re: HKS engines

From my experience of flying a 582 for 278 hrs and now flying the HKS 125 hrs the HKS has as much power as the 582, it has far more power than the 503, the HKS needs a long prop to use its available torque and of course not all airplane repond to engines and props the same. But properly fit with the right prop and pitch setting the HKS is equal in power and prefornace to the out582 anyday of the week.  My airfield is not high 1400' MSL  and  1300' long has obstuctions at both ends and I would not even consider a Kitfox with a 503 but the HKS gets me in and out as well as the 582 ever did on any given day.

_________________
GB
MNFlyer
Flying a HKS Kitfox III

Mnflyer

Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 78

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:05 am Post subject: Re: HKS engines

From my experience of flying a 582 for 278 hrs and now flying the HKS 125 hrs the HKS has as much power as the 582, it has far more power than the 503, the HKS needs a long prop to use its available torque and of course not all airplanes repond to engines and props the same. But properly fit with the right prop and pitch setting the HKS is equal in power and prefornace to the out582 anyday of the week.  My airfield is not high 1400' MSL  and  1300' long has obstuctions at both ends and I would not even consider a Kitfox with a 503 but the HKS gets me in and out as well as the 582 ever did on any given day.

_________________
GB
MNFlyer
Flying a HKS Kitfox III

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:25 am Post subject: HKS engines

How much does your Kitfox weigh with the HKS ?

I fly regularly a friend Kitfox 1 with 503 single carb  and it will clear a 

75 foot obstacle in about 600 feet . It weights about 430 lbs i think.  This 

is his  here  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR16rYZFccU    The second plane 

is a 503 and 84 yr old man flying it .



I don't think you can compare a 582 shortfield to a HKS .......

Here is 582 performance   http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=kitfoxflyer

If your HKS can compare to that equally , well pass over the crow and i will 

eat it.     an some salt an pepper  



Dave





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