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Need low cost schematic program

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J5Cub

Joined: 02 Dec 2006
Posts: 6

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 9:57 am Post subject: Need low cost schematic program

I just ordered "The AeroElectric Connection" and am looking forward to 

laying out the electrical system for my RV8.  I am interested in 

purchasing an inexpensive CAD program to document the system and was 

curious as to what recommendations this list might have.



I am also interested if anyone has any recommendatons of a good software 

program and process for designing and producting 2 sided boards for 

small circuits.  It has been 15 years since I designed circuits and at 

that point I had a lab at my disposal.  I am looking for something I can 

use at home and that would produce acceptable boards.



Thank you in advance for your recommendations.



Greg

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:52 am Post subject: Need low cost schematic program

Hi Greg,

I'd recommend you use TurboCAD Vers 11 or later.  I've worked with ProE 

and Autocad, but find

TurboCAD much more productive, capable of quick 3D design and all the 

tools for rendering and

providing exacting product design without the strain involved with the 

other two.  It's not priced

nearly as high as the others as well.

Sample drawing links,

http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/primary-wiring.gif

http://www.macsmachine.com/images/electrical/full/primary-wiring-(SH-2).gif

http://www.macsmachine.com/images/gear/full/travel-stop-and-stear-link.gif

Good luck,



Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

Greg Papendick wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I just ordered "The AeroElectric Connection" and am looking forward to 

 laying out the electrical system for my RV8.  I am interested in 

 purchasing an inexpensive CAD program to document the system and was 

 curious as to what recommendations this list might have.



 I am also interested if anyone has any recommendatons of a good software 

 program and process for designing and producting 2 sided boards for 

 small circuits.  It has been 15 years since I designed circuits and at 

 that point I had a lab at my disposal.  I am looking for something I can 

 use at home and that would produce acceptable boards.



 Thank you in advance for your recommendations.



 Greg

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:14 am Post subject: Need low cost schematic program

Greg Papendick wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I just ordered "The AeroElectric Connection" and am looking forward to 

 laying out the electrical system for my RV8.  I am interested in 

 purchasing an inexpensive CAD program to document the system and was 

 curious as to what recommendations this list might have.



 I am also interested if anyone has any recommendatons of a good software 

 program and process for designing and producting 2 sided boards for 

 small circuits.  It has been 15 years since I designed circuits and at 

 that point I had a lab at my disposal.  I am looking for something I can 

 use at home and that would produce acceptable boards.



 Thank you in advance for your recommendations.



 Greg



   

You simply must give gEDA a try.  It sells for the whopping sum of 
	


"absolutely nothing" (it's open source.)  It took me only a few moments 

to start laying out circuits, and a day or so to figure out the tools 

set that will take you from your schematic layout to a PCB silkscreen 

print.  If you get everything set up correctly in the schematic, it will 

arrange all the components and traces automatically.  It did a much 

better arrangement job in less than a minute than I did over several hours.



Get copper clad boards from RadioShack.  Create a resist with a laser 

printer. Use muriatic acid mixed with hydrogen peroxide to etch.  My 

single largest cost to produce one of Jim Weir's capacitive fuel level 

sensor was, by far, the shipping of the components from Newark.

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:23 am Post subject: Need low cost schematic program

At 12:55 PM 1/14/2007 -0500, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



I just ordered "The AeroElectric Connection" and am looking forward to

laying out the electrical system for my RV8.  I am interested in

purchasing an inexpensive CAD program to document the system and was

curious as to what recommendations this list might have.


	


   TurboCAD v7 and higher will open, edit, save, and print

   the AutoCAD .dwg files posted at:



http://aeroelectric.com/PPS



   You can buy TurboCAD really cheap on Ebay. Here's an exemplar

   listing:



http://tinyurl.com/unm8y



 	  Quote: 	
		  I am also interested if anyone has any recommendatons of a good software

program and process for designing and producting 2 sided boards for

small circuits.  It has been 15 years since I designed circuits and at

that point I had a lab at my disposal.  I am looking for something I can

use at home and that would produce acceptable boards.


	


   We use ExpressPCB for all but the largest production

   tasks. Their software is free. The service for small

   quantities is quick and reasonable. Furhter, as we

   begin to publish more DIY projects using ECB layouts,

   we'll also publish the artwork files in ExpressPCB format.

   Take a peek at:



http://www.expresspcb.com/

        Bob . . .

      ---------------------------------------------------------

      < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >

      < the authority which determines whether there can be   >

      < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of   >

      < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests     >

      < with experiment.                                      >

      <                            --Lawrence M. Krauss       >

      ---------------------------------------------------------

rv-9a-online(at)telus.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:38 am Post subject: Need low cost schematic program

Greg:  Here is exactly what you need... it's free and very easy to use:



http://www.expresspcb.com/



Here is a schematic for my RV-9A, and a library of custom components:



http://vx-aviation.com/page_3.html



Have fun.



Vern Little



Greg Papendick wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I just ordered "The AeroElectric Connection" and am looking forward to 

 laying out the electrical system for my RV8.  I am interested in 

 purchasing an inexpensive CAD program to document the system and was 

 curious as to what recommendations this list might have.

 

 I am also interested if anyone has any recommendatons of a good software 

 program and process for designing and producting 2 sided boards for 

 small circuits.  It has been 15 years since I designed circuits and at 

 that point I had a lab at my disposal.  I am looking for something I can 

 use at home and that would produce acceptable boards.

 

 Thank you in advance for your recommendations.

 

 Greg

mthomson(at)showmeproduct
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:41 am Post subject: Need low cost schematic program

Try ExpressPCB - good for circuit layout and PCB layout and production.

It's free too. I've used it with great success.  Software is reliable and

does a nice job.



www.expresspcb.com 



--

zk-vii(at)rvproject.gen.n
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:52 am Post subject: Need low cost schematic program

Hi,



For CAD work I've been using progeCAD LT 2006 (http://www.progecad.com/) -

which is a free (/ donationware) program and works well.



For PCB design work - I've ended up using Eagle (http://www.cadsoft.de/) -

it is a little clumbsy (UNIX X windows style interface) but once you get it

going works really well and well featured.  The freeware version is limited

to 6" x 4" physical designs (but multi-layer).



Regards,



Carl

--

ZK-VII - RV 7A QB - finishing? - New Zealand

http://www.rvproject.gen.nz/



[quote] --

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:42 pm Post subject: Need low cost schematic program

TurboCAD.  And it will convert coveted DWG. Files to be used in your

production drawings to boot.



John Cox

#40600



--

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 6:35 pm Post subject: Need low cost schematic program

Vern Little wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <rv-9a-online(at)telus.net>



 Greg:  Here is exactly what you need... it's free and very easy to use:



 http://www.expresspcb.com/



 Here is a schematic for my RV-9A, and a library of custom components:



 http://vx-aviation.com/page_3.html



 Have fun.



 Vern Little



Vern, just a word of warning.
	




The difference between 'free' and 'open source' is that the program can 

disappear, leaving a library of custom components worthless.  Make sure 

you make backups of your work in a format that is not proprietary.



I spent about a year learning to do 3D CAD with Pro/Desktop while the 

tech industry was in the recent slump.  I was nearly finished with a 

complete rendition of a virtual Dyke Delta, when the makers of the 

program decided that they were no longer interested in having people 

learn to use their software for free.  They were kind enough to give out 

keys that enabled the software for 5yrs, but I quickly lost mine in a 

harddrive crash.  I still have the files, but they are useless without a 

program to interpret them.  I did convert a few of the parts to STEP 

files, so they are usable in other programs, but most of the work has to 

be written off as an 'educational' exercise.  If I had taken an hour or 

so to save each of the components in a more universal format I wouldn't 

get a sick feeling whenever I look at those files.

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 7:20 pm Post subject: Need low cost schematic program

At 09:35 PM 1/14/2007 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

<echristley(at)nc.rr.com>

Vern Little wrote:

>

>

>Greg:  Here is exactly what you need... it's free and very easy to use:

>

>http://www.expresspcb.com/

>

>Here is a schematic for my RV-9A, and a library of custom components:

>

>http://vx-aviation.com/page_3.html

>

>Have fun.

>

>Vern Little

Vern, just a word of warning.

The difference between 'free' and 'open source' is that the program can 

disappear, leaving a library of custom components worthless.  Make sure 

you make backups of your work in a format that is not proprietary.

I spent about a year learning to do 3D CAD with Pro/Desktop while the tech 

industry was in the recent slump.  I was nearly finished with a complete 

rendition of a virtual Dyke Delta, when the makers of the program decided 

that they were no longer interested in having people learn to use their 

software for free.  They were kind enough to give out keys that enabled 

the software for 5yrs, but I quickly lost mine in a harddrive crash.  I 

still have the files, but they are useless without a program to interpret 

them.  I did convert a few of the parts to STEP files, so they are usable 

in other programs, but most of the work has to be written off as an 

'educational' exercise.  If I had taken an hour or so to save each of the 

components in a more universal format I wouldn't get a sick feeling 

whenever I look at those files.

    Most serious CAD programs are ambiformexerous . . . they'll input

    and output a variety of popular formats. For example, my AutoCAD

    .dwg files can be opened directly by a variety of competitive programs.

    Further, I can save in .dxf and IGES formats that will transport the

    drawings to other applications. It's good to research these capabilties

    before you infest much $time$ in a CAD based documentation project.

    Bob . . .

jan.de.jong(at)xs4all.nl
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:54 am Post subject: Need low cost schematic program

It seems that ExpressPCB output format is proprietary - no Gerber files 

- and not supported by other prototype PCB makers.

A possible consideration.

Jan de Jong

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:30 am Post subject: Need low cost schematic program

At 03:53 PM 1/15/2007 +0100, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



It seems that ExpressPCB output format is proprietary - no Gerber files - 

and not supported by other prototype PCB makers.

A possible consideration.

Jan de Jong


	


   Correct . . . but after years of doing business with

   them (and considering/using a variety of options) their

   pricing and service for the low volume OBAM aircraft

   market has over-ridden these concerns.



   It's exceedingly unlikely that anyone on the List is

   going to regret having used ExpressPCB because of a

   future wish to have a few thousand boards fabricated.

   Bob . . .

      ---------------------------------------------------------

      < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >

      < the authority which determines whether there can be   >

      < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of   >

      < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests     >

      < with experiment.                                      >

      <                            --Lawrence M. Krauss       >

      ---------------------------------------------------------

Roger Bentlage

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 6

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Need low cost schematic program

A number of programs are available for free download at:



http://www.freecad.com/cgi-bin/dcd/html/CAD_Programs___General_Purpose/



I use a purchased copy of EasyCAD for basic 2-axis stuff (wiring diagrams) because of its simplicity.



I use A9CAD, downloadable free from the above site, for more complex applications.  It's comfortable with AutoCAD output.



Attached is a copy of my dual batt, dual alt, all electric RV-7.  Criticisms are welcome.



Roger

retasker(at)optonline.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 4:53 pm Post subject: Need low cost schematic program

True, but why compromise on a proprietary format when you can get Eagle 

for free and do any layouts up to 4" x 6" with schematic capture and 

Gerber outputs usable by any PCB house.  http://www.cadsoft.de/



Dick Tasker



Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <nuckollsr(at)cox.net>



 At 03:53 PM 1/15/2007 +0100, you wrote:



> 

> <jan.de.jong(at)xs4all.nl>

>

> It seems that ExpressPCB output format is proprietary - no Gerber 

> files - and not supported by other prototype PCB makers.

> A possible consideration.

> Jan de Jong

   Correct . . . but after years of doing business with

   them (and considering/using a variety of options) their

   pricing and service for the low volume OBAM aircraft

   market has over-ridden these concerns.



   It's exceedingly unlikely that anyone on the List is

   going to regret having used ExpressPCB because of a

   future wish to have a few thousand boards fabricated.

   Bob . . .

      ---------------------------------------------------------

      < What is so wonderful about scientific truth...is that >

      < the authority which determines whether there can be   >

      < debate or not does not reside in some fraternity of   >

      < scientists; nor is it divine. The authority rests     >

      < with experiment.                                      >

      <                            --Lawrence M. Krauss       >

      ---------------------------------------------------------

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject: Need low cost schematic program

At 07:52 PM 1/15/2007 -0500, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

<retasker(at)optonline.net>



True, but why compromise on a proprietary format when you can get Eagle 

for free and do any layouts up to 4" x 6" with schematic capture and 

Gerber outputs usable by any PCB house.  http://www.cadsoft.de/



Dick Tasker


	


    . . . is there a fab house that inputs Gerber plots

    that will do 5-day turnaround prototypes for $51 + 2nd

    day air?



    Bob . . .

Ed Anderson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 475

Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 7:10 pm Post subject: Need low cost schematic program

Hi Bob,



Here is a site that offers 5 boards for as low as $13 per board, 5 day 

turnaround.  I have not yet used them (as I have not yet mastered Eagle PCB 

software to the point of producing a board), but I will certainly give them 

a try in the future.



http://ecommerce.pcbfabexpress.com/index.jsp



Ed

---

_________________
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com

nuckollsr(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:13 am Post subject: Need low cost schematic program

At 10:10 PM 1/15/2007 -0500, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

<eanderson(at)carolina.rr.com>



Hi Bob,



Here is a site that offers 5 boards for as low as $13 per board, 5 day 

turnaround.  I have not yet used them (as I have not yet mastered Eagle 

PCB software to the point of producing a board), but I will certainly give 

them a try in the future.



http://ecommerce.pcbfabexpress.com/index.jsp



Ed


	


    Interesting! Thanks for the heads-up.



    Bob . . .

michele.delsol(at)microsi
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:10 am Post subject: Need low cost schematic program

As a newbie to electrical circuits for my RV8, I looked around for a cheap

schematic program and hit upon ExpressSCH. It has already been said that it

is a very good little program for general schematic work and FWIW I agree.

What has not been said is that one can make one's own components and that it

has a nifty component export feature. Each item in my schematics is

identified as a component, including wires. Each component has three items

of information that one can use as one likes. This means that I get my bill

of materials and all sorts of other information by carefully coding the

information on the schematic, exporting into a text file, importing into

Excel and by applying formulas on the three fields of each component, I get

lots of useful information, such as:



Components are grouped into parts, wires, junctions from one drawing to

another.



Each wire is identified as to drawing it belongs to, circuit it is attached

to, gauge, color, parts the wire connects to



Parts are identified as to drawings, name, type, source and other info



Junctions connect a wire on one drawing to the same wire or to a part on

another drawing. In my Excel sheet I maintain coherence by requiring that

there should be exactly two identical junction components for each junction.



This ExpressSCH export feature enables me to maintain coherence between the

schematic and the parts list.



Since all I need is to have clear up-to-date schematics and parts, junctions

and wire lists, I find that this program fulfils my needs. I am sure that

there are more powerful and more user friendly programs out there but they

may cost a fair amount and may have steep learning curve.



Michele

RV8 Finishing



--

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:06 am Post subject: Need low cost schematic program

Michèle Delsol wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



As a newbie to electrical circuits for my RV8, I looked around for a cheap

schematic program and hit upon ExpressSCH. It has already been said that it

is a very good little program for general schematic work and FWIW I agree.

What has not been said is that one can make one's own components and that it

has a nifty component export feature. Each item in my schematics is

identified as a component, including wires. Each component has three items

of information that one can use as one likes. This means that I get my bill

of materials and all sorts of other information by carefully coding the

information on the schematic, exporting into a text file, importing into

Excel and by applying formulas on the three fields of each component, I get

lots of useful information, such as:



Components are grouped into parts, wires, junctions from one drawing to

another.



Each wire is identified as to drawing it belongs to, circuit it is attached

to, gauge, color, parts the wire connects to



Parts are identified as to drawings, name, type, source and other info



Junctions connect a wire on one drawing to the same wire or to a part on

another drawing. In my Excel sheet I maintain coherence by requiring that

there should be exactly two identical junction components for each junction.



This ExpressSCH export feature enables me to maintain coherence between the

schematic and the parts list.



Since all I need is to have clear up-to-date schematics and parts, junctions

and wire lists, I find that this program fulfils my needs. I am sure that

there are more powerful and more user friendly programs out there but they

may cost a fair amount and may have steep learning curve.



Michele

RV8 Finishing

  



Excellent, Michele.  It's just a tool that we hope to leave on the 
	


ground someday 8*)



I was up to speed with gEDA in just a few days.  Producing what I think 

is a usable print in about 12 hours total time.  The gEDA tool chain 

uses ASCII files to maintain all its information, which has a lot of 

valuable implications.   I had a problem last night where I had misnamed 

one of the pins on a custom component I created.  I called it 'c' 

instead of '3'.  Opened the file in a text editor, made the changes, and 

then auto-routed all the tracks.  Slight modifications of component 

sizing or pin spacing could be accomplish without even using the 

program.  I was also suprised that the print command automatically 

produces 10 different views of the layout (solder, component, 

componentmask, soldermask, plated-drill, topsilk, bottomsilk, 

topassembly, bottomassembly, and fab).



-- 

         ,|"|"|,              Ernest Christley       |

----===<{{(oQo)}}>===----    Dyke Delta Builder      |

        o|  d  |o        http://ernest.isa-geek.org  |

greg(at)itmack.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:11 pm Post subject: Need low cost schematic program

I've been using DipTrace www.diptrace.com and check this place out for PCB 

manufacture.  There is an online quote service for comparison 

http://www.futurlec.com/index.shtml



Greg

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <gandjpappy(at)aol.com>



 I just ordered "The AeroElectric Connection" and am looking forward to

 laying out the electrical system for my RV8.  I am interested in

 purchasing an inexpensive CAD program to document the system and was

 curious as to what recommendations this list might have.



 I am also interested if anyone has any recommendatons of a good software

 program and process for designing and producting 2 sided boards for

 small circuits.  It has been 15 years since I designed circuits and at

 that point I had a lab at my disposal.  I am looking for something I can

 use at home and that would produce acceptable boards.



 Thank you in advance for your recommendations.



 Greg



 -- 

 13/01/2007 5:40 PM

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