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Deems Davis
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 925
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Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:02 pm Post subject: Van's Motor Mount SB |
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Looks like Van's has issued another service bulletin, this time aimed at
us "Hot Rodders"
http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/10_motor_mount.pdf
Scott was extremely helpful and modified my mount. Looks like they won't
be doing any more!
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net Guest
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:48 am Post subject: Van's Motor Mount SB |
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Deems,
Have the modifications fixed the issue with your mount? I would like
to know before I call and discuss the mount for my engine. I take
exception with the SB. First of all I paid a crap load of money for a
Lycoming and my Barrett engine is NOT a clone. Second of all, Lycoming
offers a cold air induction sump also and I'm betting that that "stock"
Lycoming part is also going to see interference.
If they know what the problem is and know how to fix it without
impacting everyone else, they should. I agree that they do not need to
accommodate every variation out there but this is a fairly common mod
and I'm not doing it to hot rod anything. I have a HP limiting device
called a throttle and the additional HP I may see is to get me out of
short strips or high density altitude locations, not to get me there 10
minutes sooner. I really wish Van's would get the difference already
and move on with the stupid hot rodding crap.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 limbo
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BPA(at)bpaengines.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:07 am Post subject: Van's Motor Mount SB |
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Wow Deems. Thanks for passing this along. There are a few points that
should be understood by individuals who are either new to the list or
are still in the homework phase of engine selection. Primarily, the
Barrett Precision Engines IO-540-X is not a "clone" engine. It is made
of all new Lycoming components sold from Lycoming to us as part of their
kit program. The only exception is the cold air induction sump, plenum
and pipes which Monty designed almost 20 years ago for use in the
experimental arena. In some cases, the compression ratio is increased
at the request of the airplane builder using propriety pistons. Oops,
and we use silicone rocker box gaskets made by Superior. Other than
that, all OEM certified parts are used on the 540. Of course the
IO-540-X is also available with the stock sump.
There is a clearance issue with the mount. I do have a local source for
the modification needed on the mount and am happy to pass that along to
anyone who is interested or intends to use the modified IO-540-X with
cold air induction. This individual has modified the RV-10 engine mount
with the standard sump. We are meeting with him over the next few days,
and we will provide the engine mount modification to you as a value
added service with your engine at no additional charge.
For those of you who have already taken delivery of your engine equipped
with Barrett Cold Air, please contact Rhonda for assistance in getting
your mounts modified.
Re: Van's advisement about going with standard hp, this is a debate for
you as builders, and each individual has different needs and wants. We
have always recommended moderation in increasing the hp. Van's has an
interest in selling you a stock Lycoming engine. I doubt very seriously
that he is selling them to you at cost!
Thank for your continued support.
Allen Barrett
Barrett Precision Engines, Inc.
2870-B N. Sheridan Rd.
Tulsa, OK 74115
(918) 835-1089 phone
(918) 835-1754 fax
www.barrettprecisionengines.com
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Deems Davis
Joined: 09 Jan 2006 Posts: 925
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:10 am Post subject: Van's Motor Mount SB |
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The modification did indeed fix my situation I've posted pictures here :
http://deemsrv10.com/album/Sec%20Firewall%20Forward%20FF1/slides/DSC04025.html
page forward and you can see several other shots. I think this must be a
broader issue than just BPE cold air. They told me they had just
modified another mount the day prior to mine. Don't know if that one was
an early/unmodified mount or not.
Deems Davis # 406
Finishing - ( A Misnomer ! )
http://deemsrv10.com/
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
[quote]
Deems,
Have the modifications fixed the issue with your mount? I would like
to know before I call and discuss the mount for my engine. I take
exception with the SB. First of all I paid a crap load of money for a
Lycoming and my Barrett engine is NOT a clone. Second of all, Lycoming
offers a cold air induction sump also and I'm betting that that "stock"
Lycoming part is also going to see interference.
If they know what the problem is and know how to fix it without
impacting everyone else, they should. I agree that they do not need to
accommodate every variation out there but this is a fairly common mod
and I'm not doing it to hot rod anything. I have a HP limiting device
called a throttle and the additional HP I may see is to get me out of
short strips or high density altitude locations, not to get me there 10
minutes sooner. I really wish Van's would get the difference already
and move on with the stupid hot rodding crap.
Michael Sausen
-10 #352 limbo
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rene(at)felker.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:16 am Post subject: Van's Motor Mount SB |
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I do not see the words "hot rodding" in the SB nor do I see anything but
Vans covering their buts. It looks pretty simple, the motor mount is only
guaranteed to work with the stock IO-540 without cold air induction, if you
go with any other variation, it is on the builder to fix the motor mount.
Also their statement about higher horse power does not limit you on the size
of engine you are putting in, just that you must account for it in your
operating limits in order to meet the intent of the statement in the SB.
There are many airplanes with de-rated turbines.
Yes I have a stock IO-540....so this really doesn't affect me. But, I hate
to see this mud slinging at Vans on something that they are reasonably
handling.....now about the fiberglass parts.........
Rene' Felker
40322
N423CF
801-721-6080
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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net Guest
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:43 am Post subject: Van's Motor Mount SB |
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Reasonably handling to me would suggest they make the change to their
production run eliminating this problem with 99% of the engines used.
Tim had a "stock" setup and still had this problem as did others.
I think the final statement in the SB describes their position on the
unofficial term of "hot rodding" so let's cut the semantics. I also
didn't say anything about them covering their butts. The SB went out of
its way to suggest that the Barrett engine is not a stock Lycoming which
is absolutely incorrect. Frankly if I was Alan I would be rather
irritated and would be having a conversation with Van's about that
incorrect fact and suggest they change the wording. The SB also
suggests that if you use Lycoming parts this won't be a problem which
has already been shown as incorrect.
I talked to Scott and Van's position is he is afraid of giving the
appearance of authorizing these changes for litigious reasons as he
tested the aircraft with the 260HP engine. This is the ONLY reason they
don't make the change across the board. As I told Scott, the addition
of the cold air sump for me was for a safety margin getting out of grass
strips (my home airport) and high density altitude locations. When I
purchased my engine I was living in Texas where it routinely is over 100
degrees. I can tell you that the cold air sump probably isn't going to
get me back up to 260HP by itself when it's over 100 in the high desert.
Same with Deems. While Van is in CYA mode against increased HP, Van is
also setting himself up for lawsuits in the other direction by impacting
safety. If he had the chance to make a non-impacting change to his
design to improve safety and didn't do it, it's no better than
encouraging wild modifications. Scott is checking with Van on if he can
drop ship the mount directly to Alan for modification but he's afraid
that they may also give the same impression. Give me a break. How
about if I sign a legal release of responsibility like I had to when I
deleted items from the finish kit. Or better yet I can give him Alan's
home address as mine. Or they can take the don't ask, don't tell
approach. This is just silly.
I'm not slinging mud at Van's, I'm simply stating that if they have a
solution they should implement it. That's called customer service and
improving a product. Unfortunately they have a long history of ignoring
customer suggestions and going on their merry way (fiberglass, shipping,
etc). They make a great aircraft kit but there is no way to hide from
lawsuits nowadays. It makes me sick that people cannot assume
responsibility for their own actions anymore to the point that everyone
is doing lawsuit mitigation as the first step in anything.
I bought an engine from Barrett and at least I know they will take
care of any issues that arise and not run and stick their head in the
sand.
Michael
Rant mode off
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rene(at)felker.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:25 am Post subject: Van's Motor Mount SB |
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Michael wrote
"It makes me sick that people cannot assume responsibility for their own
actions anymore to the point that everyone is doing lawsuit mitigation as
the first step in anything."
I totally agree......I have been on the receiving end of a lawsuit and
totally understand Vans position based on the world we live in. If Vans
makes the change and it can be tied to his attempt to support alternative
engines, what will that look like to a jury, seeing the crying widow of the
dumb pilot who just killed himself doing something that exceeded the
operating limits of the airplane.
Defense mode off, back to covering my ass at work......
Rene' Felker
40322
N423CF
801-721-6080
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jjessen
Joined: 22 Apr 2006 Posts: 285 Location: OR
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:28 am Post subject: Van's Motor Mount SB |
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I probably shouldn't weigh in on this, simply because I usually don't have a
clue. However, after reading the notice and knowing a bit about business,
it appears Vans is simply narrowing their scope of liability. It'll not
hurt their business one whit to do so and might hurt to go the other way.
They will continue to sell and support the narrow band of known product, and
they will make a good living doing that. They will let Marty and others
deal with the issues that lay outside that band. And, that's okay. There
is good innovation happening all around Vans and they are fine with that. I
daresay they are happy with that. The cottage industry that has grown up
around their product is quite large and strong and will continue to grow and
improve. Should they make improvements to, say, the fiberglassed parts,
sure and yes and I agree. If they have a stock part that is not of high
quality in fabrication, damn right they should improve that. Should they
modify the engine mount to make sure it works for a "standard" engine, of
course. They are all about keeping well within a safety and knowledge zone.
Let the market improve the product. They will still make their money.
Now, having said that, I do agree that the language found in the SB was not
well thought out. Clearly Barrett's engines are not aggressively modified
clones, and clearly they didn't even have the mount correct for Tim's
engine, so to put their stake at this point in the sand doesn't make sense
on the face of it. And certainly building demonstrators as minimal VFR
machines was a silly thing to do. Clearly the RV-10 is a cruising IFR
machine, and should be treated as such. It has always been an attempt by
the company to narrow the liability and cost options. But, the stake has
been put in the sand and we will continue to build the planes, modify them
as the market allows, and continue to enjoy the hell out of them.
My conclusion? We all have our quirks. We meaning both individuals and
companies. But the cool thing in this society is that we have a market that
can fill the voids and make things even better. I have a feeling Van's will
be seeing many a gear, many a cabin, many a cowl being returned, and many an
engine not sold, as people find better alternatives. Hopefully this will
make an impression on them, but if not, hey, we'll find a way to move
forward with their basic product, which ain't bad.
John Jessen
#328
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rv10builder(at)verizon.ne Guest
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:03 am Post subject: Van's Motor Mount SB |
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"we will provide the engine mount modification to you as a value
added service with your engine at no additional charge.
Quote: | For those of you who have already taken delivery of your engine equipped
with Barrett Cold Air, please contact Rhonda for assistance in getting
your mounts modified."
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That is what I call customer service. Barrett just earn a point for my
decision on the engine. It's the small things that help me make the big
decisions.
Maybe we all need to send something to Van's and have them publish a
concrete reason for releasing something that surely has nothing to do with
Safety. I may be wrong on this but when I see a Service Bulletin I take it
to mean- improvement found that will make the part, or other safer. A more
powerful engine may get me to go slightly faster but just how much faster
than the 201MPH advertised.. no power means I get over the mountains sooner,
it means I have it if I want it. Vic, as an example has more power and he
has said more than once he rarely uses more than 75% on his plane.. but he
has it if he needs it. I see adding 20-30hp as a good thing and Van's using
a SB so people like Deems don't have their welder do extra work by re
welding to fit anything different than a stock engine, versus Van's just
working with Mattituck, Thunderbolt, Barrett and any other engine company
out there driving their kits to work out a motor mount that fits them all-
ie make the mount fit the largest sump out there without safety issues. It's
been done for Tim, Deems and probably many more out there. It's experimental
and it HAS been tested so just weld a different motor mount and skip the SB.
I am still clueless to the motor mount but the point is I have seen two
perspectives here. 1) we'll take care of the motor mounts as part of the
engine price and 2) We won't modify nor support you if you don't use a stock
engine.
if it wasn't for #2 making the kit I would consider taking my business
elsewhere, but I think back to why did Van's publish a SB? I really would
like an explanantion for the logic with proof to back it up. More is not
worse unless we were talking out of C/G weights or a turbine engine.. than I
would understand..
John C (since you're so close), take a walk down to Van's and get us an
explanation, if anyone can do it it's you!
Pascal
To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 7:08 AM
Subject: RE: Van's Motor Mount SB
[quote]
Wow Deems. Thanks for passing this along. There are a few points that
should be understood by individuals who are either new to the list or
are still in the homework phase of engine selection. Primarily, the
Barrett Precision Engines IO-540-X is not a "clone" engine. It is made
of all new Lycoming components sold from Lycoming to us as part of their
kit program. The only exception is the cold air induction sump, plenum
and pipes which Monty designed almost 20 years ago for use in the
experimental arena. In some cases, the compression ratio is increased
at the request of the airplane builder using propriety pistons. Oops,
and we use silicone rocker box gaskets made by Superior. Other than
that, all OEM certified parts are used on the 540. Of course the
IO-540-X is also available with the stock sump.
There is a clearance issue with the mount. I do have a local source for
the modification needed on the mount and am happy to pass that along to
anyone who is interested or intends to use the modified IO-540-X with
cold air induction. This individual has modified the RV-10 engine mount
with the standard sump. We are meeting with him over the next few days,
and we will provide the engine mount modification to you as a value
added service with your engine at no additional charge.
For those of you who have already taken delivery of your engine equipped
with Barrett Cold Air, please contact Rhonda for assistance in getting
your mounts modified.
Re: Van's advisement about going with standard hp, this is a debate for
you as builders, and each individual has different needs and wants. We
have always recommended moderation in increasing the hp. Van's has an
interest in selling you a stock Lycoming engine. I doubt very seriously
that he is selling them to you at cost!
Thank for your continued support.
Allen Barrett
Barrett Precision Engines, Inc.
2870-B N. Sheridan Rd.
Tulsa, OK 74115
(918) 835-1089 phone
(918) 835-1754 fax
www.barrettprecisionengines.com
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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net Guest
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:50 am Post subject: Van's Motor Mount SB |
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The short version is Van's was hit with a lawsuit around similar items
in the past. They made modifications to the RV-10 mount in the past
because their mockup was wrong. When they realized that Deems issue was
because of the cold air sump, and others were in the pipeline, they kept
their word to Deems and then issued the SB stopping any future
modifications. Good thing Tim didn't let them know he had a Lightspeed
ignition on his when he sent it back for modification, might be
producing more than 260HP.
Michael
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Tim(at)MyRV10.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:19 pm Post subject: Van's Motor Mount SB |
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Should I keep the nitrous system secret still, or can I tell
people about it now.
It's too bad we had to see this whole clearance thread even
come BACK with the prior history we had. One fix done well
could have prevented a reoccurance.
I still get a laugh out of one person saying that my engine
wasn't a Lycoming engine, so maybe mine was different....it
wasn't a Lycoming, it was an Aerosport. That always gives
me the giggles. That's like saying, I don't drive any GM
products....mine's made by Chevrolet.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying
do not archive
RV Builder (Michael Sausen) wrote:
Quote: |
The short version is Van's was hit with a lawsuit around similar items
in the past. They made modifications to the RV-10 mount in the past
because their mockup was wrong. When they realized that Deems issue was
because of the cold air sump, and others were in the pipeline, they kept
their word to Deems and then issued the SB stopping any future
modifications. Good thing Tim didn't let them know he had a Lightspeed
ignition on his when he sent it back for modification, might be
producing more than 260HP.
Michael
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ron.mcgann(at)baesystems. Guest
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:40 pm Post subject: Van's Motor Mount SB |
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Pascal wrote:-
["we will provide the engine mount modification to you as a value
added service with your engine at no additional charge.
Quote: | For those of you who have already taken delivery of your engine equipped
with Barrett Cold Air, please contact Rhonda for assistance in getting
your mounts modified."
That is what I call customer service. Barrett just earn a point for my
|
decision on the engine. It's the small things that help me make the big
decisions.]
I'm with Pascal. Unfortunately I am not inclined to send my mount from South Australia for modification. Does Allen provide a stock IO540 (ie w/o cold air induction) that does not require the mount mod, and at what cost? If you're out their Allen, please reply off list if you wish.
cheers,
Ron
Selecting an engine [quote][b]
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ron.mcgann(at)baesystems. Guest
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 1:55 pm Post subject: Van's Motor Mount SB |
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On the subject of engines, my reqts are pretty basic - standard IO540 D4A5 with one Mag replaced with a lightspeed plasma III.
Ignoring the Lightspeed, what is the difference between buying a Vans Experimental 540 at $39,900 vs say an Aerosportpower at $40,300? $400 is not a lot, but what added value do the engine (re-)builders give beyond the standard engine provided by Vans?
cheers,
Ron
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ddddsp1(at)juno.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:10 pm Post subject: Van's Motor Mount SB |
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Speaking of TIM...............where is his reply to CALM the storm here? For all the upset builders with built up frustration I would recommend grapping a sanding block, extra sandpaper and take it all out on some fiberglass in the SHOP. Who knows, by the time you relieve all the frustration your wheel pants and cabin top may be completely smooth and ready for paint! I love this list.......Educational and ENTERTAINING! We all started building these wonderful birds with very little knowledge and lots of money................and as we get close to the end of the process we boldly share�on here our LOADS of expertise(loosely used term) and realize we have little money. Can life get any better? Oh yea, it could if I had a job.
OK, rant mode off?
DEAN 40449
________________________________________________________________________
Interested in getting caught up on today's news?
Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines.
[quote][b]
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jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:50 pm Post subject: Van's Motor Mount SB |
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I,m so glad Van's issued that SB. I was getting tired of the counterweight
discussion.... hehehe
John Hasbrouck
#40264
currently installing JATO bottles
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rvbuilder(at)sausen.net Guest
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jesse(at)saintaviation.co Guest
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Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:55 pm Post subject: Van's Motor Mount SB |
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On the engine mount issue, I agree with those who said that Van's has made their engine mount for the engine they provide. Barrett's engine is not a clone, but with the Cold Air Induction it is not "stock" IO-540, so the engine mount is not necessarily going to fit. I don't have a problem with this. Yes, it would be nice if Van's would start making their mount so it would fit this sump as well, but I certainly wouldn't expect them to. I would be quite surprised if they did. Are they creating a safety hazard because they don't condone the Cold Air Induction? NO! Are they saying you can't do it? NO! They just aren't going to go out of their way to make it easier for you, at their expense. Deems, did they charge you for the mod? Tim, did they charge you for the mod? I think the answer to both of these is "NO". So, Van's accidentally helped Deems do something that they don't condone to his benefit, but the SB is just to say that they won't do it any more.
If you want to make a mod, you have to make it. I don't have a problem with that.
I think the door handles are ugly, so I got some made that I like. I didn't call Van's and ask them to make some that I liked and send them to me, much less at no charge. I wanted an access panel in the baggage floor, so I bought some parts and made one. These planes are not made by Van’s Aircraft. Deems’ plane will have a manufacturer something like “Deems Davis”, so as long as he built it to his specifications, the FAA really has no choice but to sign it off as airworthy (IMHO). They are certifying that it is a safe plane, that it will fly, that nobody will get killed in it, or that it is exactly like Van’s designed it. They are just saying something like, “It looks like an airplane” and that it is legal to fly and that Deems has the right to fix it because he built it.
Some countries, as I understand, require that you build it exactly as the plans call for to be legal to fly. The US does not (and apparently Canada does not, with the Holy Cowl on the plane up there that just flew). If you want to change something, change it and take your chances. If you want to build it stock, build it stock and take your chances.
In short, Deems got lucky and Barrett is being very generous by bailing the rest of the Cold Air Induction users out of the engine mount clearance issue. Way to go Barrett and good for you Deems.
Do not archive.
Jesse Saint
Saint Aviation, Inc.
jesse(at)saintaviation.com (jesse(at)saintaviation.com)
www.saintaviation.com
Cell: 352-427-0285
Fax: 815-377-3694
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of McGANN, Ron
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007 4:55 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Van's Motor Mount SB
On the subject of engines, my reqts are pretty basic - standard IO540 D4A5 with one Mag replaced with a lightspeed plasma III.
Ignoring the Lightspeed, what is the difference between buying a Vans Experimental 540 at $39,900 vs say an Aerosportpower at $40,300? $400 is not a lot, but what added value do the engine (re-)builders give beyond the standard engine provided by Vans?
cheers,
Ron
[quote]
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LloydDR(at)wernerco.com Guest
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Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:47 am Post subject: Van's Motor Mount SB |
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There is good news for me though, all of us that are putting in
alternative engines are now lumped into the same category! Regardless if
it is a Subaru, an Aerosport or BPA, welcome to the dark side Ladies and
Gents, we have all been assimilated as those people putting alternative
engines in the 10.
Suddenly the pool got really crowded! "GRIN"
Dan
N289DT (RV10E) on the wild side and loving it!
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