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Vixen Information
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RRTRACK(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:53 pm Post subject: Vixen Information

I have just purchased a Kitfox Vixen ( HCY-012 ) and would like to talk  with any early Vixen owners/builders. 

   This Kitfox has the long ( 32' ) wings and the wide ( 7' 11" )  elevator. And the wings are swept forward 1 degree.  All similar to  the Continental-powered Series 5 Vixen shown in the Pilot's Operating Handbook,  but this one was originally built and is still powered by a 912  UL . I did not get a builder's manual with the plane and would like to know if  this was the recommended set-up for this configuration. None of the "Tested  CG Range" charts seem to match the weight and balance information received with  the plane. 

   I have heard of some Kitfox IV builders forward sweeping there  wings, was this to compensate for a heavy engine or for some performance design?  What should this do for my Vixen? Also would like to know what the gross weight  should be for this Vixen.

   Thanks for your help,

 Mark

 Wisconsin

 RRTRACK(at)AOL.COM (RRTRACK(at)AOL.COM)

  [quote][b]

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:32 pm Post subject: Vixen Information

Congrats Mark on your new purchase.  Yes, the forward wing sweep was  to compensate for the heavy engine, namely the Lycoming O235, Cont IO240, and  Subarus.  Using the light 912 engine with forward sweep wings would  probably create a tail heavy condition if not compensated by something extreme  forward such as a heavy prop.

 The gross weight would be determined by the model/year serial number which  would be either 1400 or 1550.

 Just my 2 cents.

 Deke

 S5 with forward swept wings and Soob with heavy prop

  

  

 [quote]   ---

aldaniels(at)fmtcblue.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:50 pm Post subject: Vixen Information

The 1 degree forward sweep is to move the center of lift forward to give 

a better CG for heavy engines. I also put 1 degree on my 5 with a 7 FWF 

tailwheel with a 912s that was built light and licensed for 1320 so I 

could get the tailwheel on with better control. The only thing it did 

for my weight and balance is that it limits how much I can carry in the 

cargo compartment. I think it limits me to about 120 pounds, but if I am 

not carrying bricks or sacks of cement it is not a problem. You would 

have to do the math to see where it puts you with the short engine mount 

of the early Vixen, but it should not be a problem. As far as gross 

weight it could be 1400 or if it is one of the real early ones it could 

be less. The information with the plane should tell you what the design 

weights are. Even the later Vixen was limited to 1400 pounds with the 80 

HP engine due to performance limitations. 



RRTRACK(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have just purchased a Kitfox Vixen ( HCY-012 ) and would like to 

 talk with any early Vixen owners/builders.

   This Kitfox has the long ( 32' ) wings and the wide ( 7' 11" ) 

 elevator. And the wings are swept forward 1 degree.  All similar to 

 the Continental-powered Series 5 Vixen shown in the Pilot's Operating 

 Handbook, but this one was originally built and is still powered by a 

 912 UL . I did not get a builder's manual with the plane and would 

 like to know if this was the recommended set-up for this 

 configuration. None of the "Tested CG Range" charts seem to match the 

 weight and balance information received with the plane.

   I have heard of some Kitfox IV builders forward sweeping there 

 wings, was this to compensate for a heavy engine or for some 

 performance design? What should this do for my Vixen? Also would like 

 to know what the gross weight should be for this Vixen.

   Thanks for your help,

 Mark

 Wisconsin

 RRTRACK(at)AOL.COM <mailto:RRTRACK(at)AOL.COM>

 *

 *

Bob

Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Damascus, Maryland, USA

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:56 am Post subject: Re: Vixen Information

Mark -

I just came across your post and also have a very early Vixen (s/n 27).  I learned from John McBean that the first 30 had a gross weight of only 1200 pounds.  A clue is that the spar tube in front of the pilot's heads is 1" diameter.



As for sweeping the wings forward, it should keep you closer to the aft cg.  Good for trim loads and cruise speed, limiting for how much weight can go in the cargo compartment, and watch the weight and balance as it makes it easier to exceed the aft limit.



Bob

_________________
Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay.

RRTRACK(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:12 am Post subject: Vixen Information

Hi BOB

   Thanks for the reply. All the weight and balance scenarios is near  the rear of the CG limits. I will keep close watch of the CG when loading the  baggage compartment. My Vixen is disappointing on cruise speeds. It cruises at  80 Knots at 5000 RPM indicated. I think about 90 knots at 5500 RPM. The struts  are faired and it has the fiberglass main landing gear and all the wheel pants  on. John McBean suggested the tack may be off. I get about 5200 RPM static and  it had 430# of static thrust. 

   What it does do well is land slow. It stalls at 35 MPH with full  flaps and lands just under 40 MPH. Also the climb rate is around 1100 FPM with a  170# pilot and 10 gal of fuel. I have the 68" GSC three blade prop. How does  this compare to your Vixen performance?

 Mark

 Wisconsin

  [quote][b]

aldaniels(at)fmtcblue.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:57 am Post subject: Vixen Information

I would check your airspeed. Sounds like a static port problem giving 

you slow speeds.



RRTRACK(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi BOB

   Thanks for the reply. All the weight and balance scenarios is near 

 the rear of the CG limits. I will keep close watch of the CG when 

 loading the baggage compartment. My Vixen is disappointing on cruise 

 speeds. It cruises at 80 Knots at 5000 RPM indicated. I think about 90 

 knots at 5500 RPM. The struts are faired and it has the fiberglass 

 main landing gear and all the wheel pants on. John McBean suggested 

 the tack may be off. I get about 5200 RPM static and it had 430# of 

 static thrust.

   What it does do well is land slow. It stalls at 35 MPH with full 

 flaps and lands just under 40 MPH. Also the climb rate is around 1100 

 FPM with a 170# pilot and 10 gal of fuel. I have the 68" GSC three 

 blade prop. How does this compare to your Vixen performance?

 Mark

 Wisconsin

 *

 *

Bob

Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Damascus, Maryland, USA

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:34 am Post subject: Re: Vixen Information

Hi Mark (and others) -

I haven't really introduced myself to the group.  I work in DC as an Aircraft Systems Engineer, although my position description says "Aero."  I also try to keep my A&P active on the side.  I haven't outright built anything since a glider in the late 1970s, but have bought and sold "clean-up" project planes.  Tired of blowing 8+ gph of avgas in the last one, a 100 mph Beech Sport, I recently bought a time capsule of a hardly-started 1992 Vixen kit with quick-build wings.  One of the few things that has been started on this kit is to convert the gear so it can be a taildragger, using a Grove spring. The structure is much like later models from the factory that can go nose or tailwheel.  I've been searching the archives here and on the predecessor Yahoo group for what others have done and had problems with and really appreciate the history.  I intend to finish the gear mod and expand the cargo compartment, but want to get it done and keep it light so otherwise plan few mods, probably powering with a 100-hp 912S or 120-hp 3300.  I live close enough to DC that I'll need a transponder and comm radio.  I enjoy reading of you guys who are actively flying and if you are close enough for a ride I'd love to pay the gas.

Bob

BTW to Mark.  As I understand, you have an 80-hp engine and are doing close to 90 mph (80 kts).  Others probably can tell better and checking the real speed with a GPS is a good idea, but on 80hp you're probably close to what the airplane should do, especially if the tires are unfaired.

_________________
Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay.

av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:54 am Post subject: Vixen Information

Mark,

  

 I've noticed that the airspeed indicator for my Model IV is  off by sometimes 10 - 15 mph (e.g; reading 85-90 when I'm really going 100  mph).  Weird thing is that it is not consistent at all.  I haven't  played with it much to try and improve it, but I suspect it is because I have  one static port located midway down the fuselage on the left  side.  One day I'll disconnect the static from the instrument and try  it that way.  It hasn't really bothered me much as I have my Gps in the  middel of my panel giving me ground speeds, and that is rarely less than  100 mph.  I'm totally happy with that as I'm flying my 912ul Model IV on  amphib floats.  Incidentally, my Kitfox is the fastest 2 seat light  floatplane around this part of the country.  It will go 118 mph  (tested again and again) flat out wide open on floats.  However the  asi rarely reads much over a hundred.  Drives some of the Rans  guys nuts as before my Kitfox came along they were the light floatplanes to try  and catch.  

   

 I'm willing to bet if you test your vixen further you will  find you are flying faster than you think you are.   Btw, I think the  climb rate is about right, but the stall speed sounds slow to me...once again  making me think your ASI is off like mine.

  

 Paul Seehafer

 Model IV - 912ul on Aerocet Amphibs

 Wisconsin

  

 ps - Here's a picture of my plane.  Look at all the  drag....floats, rigging, water rudder, bubble doors, no radiator  scoop, etc., and it will easily go 100 mph even with the wheels down and  locked and at gross weight.  And I've flown next to enough other  aircraft now to know the speeds my gps tests results are accurate (asi  isn't).  Your Vixen just has to be at least as fast (especially when you  start comparing the two aircraft from a logical  viewpoint).  

  

  

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rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:36 pm Post subject: Vixen Information

Paul,  

What are the Black “bumps” on the top of your wing about on either side of the cockpit?  

   

Randy – inquiring mind,,,,,  

     

.             

  

     

   

    

ps - Here's a picture of my plane.  Look at all the drag....floats, rigging, water rudder, bubble doors, no radiator scoop, etc., and it will easily go 100 mph even with the wheels down and locked and at gross weight.  And I've flown next to enough other aircraft now to know the speeds my gps tests results are accurate (asi isn't).  Your Vixen just has to be at least as fast (especially when you start comparing the two aircraft from a logical viewpoint).    

    

   

  [quote] 	  Quote: 	
		   	
[b]

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

temco(at)telusplanet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:49 pm Post subject: Vixen Information

Randy   

   

Those look like fairings around the gas filler caps.  

   

   

Ted  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Daughenbaugh

 Sent: February 7, 2007 8:34 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Vixen Information  

  

   

Paul,  

What are the Black “bumps” on the top of your wing about on either side of the cockpit?  

   

Randy – inquiring mind,,,,,  

     

.             

  

     

   

    

ps - Here's a picture of my plane.  Look at all the drag....floats, rigging, water rudder, bubble doors, no radiator scoop, etc., and it will easily go 100 mph even with the wheels down and locked and at gross weight.  And I've flown next to enough other aircraft now to know the speeds my gps tests results are accurate (asi isn't).  Your Vixen just has to be at least as fast (especially when you start comparing the two aircraft from a logical viewpoint).    

    

   

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Beemer

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Middle Georgia

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:18 am Post subject: Vixen Information

I recently had a similar problem on my 2. I replaced the nylon tubing to my pitot tube and ASI with new stuff. When I went to fly, the ASI was all over the place. Apparently, as I was working on the plane, I was folding the wings back and forth for engine runs and working on it. I found that I rubbed a hole in the new tubing inside the wing, and it leaked. I replaced it again, and now its pretty much dead accurate.  

   

I had a piece of plastic tubing for a pitot cover that was totally sealed. When I would slip it on the pitot tube after flying, the ASI would jump up to 35 or so, and hold there. Sometimes, when I would show up the next day, the weather/pressure change overnight would push the ASI up higher. Several people thought my ASI was broken, ‘cuz it would read speed tied down. As soon as I removed the cover, it would drop to zero.  

   

Check your tubing from the pitot. You can check it by lightly blowing in the pitot tube to get a reading on the ASI, and then plug the tube with your finger. If you can get a good finger seal, the reading on the ASI will hold, and not fall off. I actually used a long piece of clear ¼ inch PVC hardware tubing on the pitot, sat in the cockpit, and plugged it with my tongue. Worked much better.  

   

I heard that you can also disconnect the ASI side, and put a small balloon on the tubing, then blow up the balloon from the pitot tube. If the balloon holds pressure, your tubing is good.  

   

Bradley  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul Seehafer

 Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 2:50 PM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: Vixen Information  

  

     

Mark,  

    

   

    

I've noticed that the airspeed indicator for my Model IV is off by sometimes 10 - 15 mph (e.g; reading 85-90 when I'm really going 100 mph).  Weird thing is that it is not consistent at all.  I haven't played with it much to try and improve it, but I suspect it is because I have one static port located midway down the fuselage on the left side.  One day I'll disconnect the static from the instrument and try it that way.  It hasn't really bothered me much as I have my Gps in the middel of my panel giving me ground speeds, and that is rarely less than 100 mph.  I'm totally happy with that as I'm flying my 912ul Model IV on amphib floats.  Incidentally, my Kitfox is the fastest 2 seat light floatplane around this part of the country.  It will go 118 mph (tested again and again) flat out wide open on floats.  However the asi rarely reads much over a hundred.  Drives some of the Rans guys nuts as before my Kitfox came along they were the light floatplanes to try and catch.    

    

    

    

I'm willing to bet if you test your vixen further you will find you are flying faster than you think you are.   Btw, I think the climb rate is about right, but the stall speed sounds slow to me...once again making me think your ASI is off like mine.  

    

   

    

Paul Seehafer  

    

Model IV - 912ul on Aerocet Amphibs  

    

Wisconsin  

    

   

    

ps - Here's a picture of my plane.  Look at all the drag....floats, rigging, water rudder, bubble doors, no radiator scoop, etc., and it will easily go 100 mph even with the wheels down and locked and at gross weight.  And I've flown next to enough other aircraft now to know the speeds my gps tests results are accurate (asi isn't).  Your Vixen just has to be at least as fast (especially when you start comparing the two aircraft from a logical viewpoint).    

    

   

    

   

    

---

_________________
Beemer
KF2 (and now an M3!)
Suzuki G10 three-banger
Middle Georgia

eskflyer(at)lvcisp.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:17 am Post subject: Vixen Information

Brad

 You never ever want to blow into the pito with your  mouth , You can over pressure the airspeed very quickly , use a fan  and  stand back away from pito and just blow towards the pito tube from several feet  away from the opening . You never want to seal up the opening attached to the  airspeed and leave it over night you can over pressure it also . it needs to  breathe. 

 Again this is my opinion and only mine and no one  paid me or forced me under duress to say any of this .

  

 Fly safe fly low fly slow 

  

 John Perry

   [quote][b]

av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:37 am Post subject: Vixen Information

Randy,

  

 Those are custom fibreglass covers that cover my  electronic fuel senders since the sender sits higher than the top surface of the  wing.  They are also hinged at the front so I can get at  the potentiometers that calibrate the senders if needed.  Fwiw it  works pretty well for fuel levels, but I also use the sight tube as a  secondary system for checking fuel level.  I've attached two pics that  show where they are located on the wing in relationship to the fuel  caps.

  

 Ironically, these covers do look like the fuel cap  fairings others have used.  I haven't installed fuel cap fairings yet, but  it's in the works.  I had a conversation once with an aerodynamic  engineer about those gas cap fairings, and he indicated the reason you should  have them is not so much because of the drag of the cap, but the  disturbed airflow over that part of the wing is critical and is  probably causing a loss of lift.  That all made sense to me so it is on my  list of projects to do yet.  

  

 Maybe my gas cap covers are what make my little float  plane so much faster than most other LSA type float planes??   (chuckle)

  

 Paul 

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dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:39 am Post subject: Vixen Information

John is right  and on top of overspeeding it  you will get moisture in it. 

  

 If you have the ASI out  you will find 2 ports  on the back of it one labeled P and on S

 If you tap your finger on the P  port the  Needle on gauge just jump a bit .

  

 I have  a flapper on my  pitot tube so it  rare to get a blockage.  If you have a spot readily assesable like on a  windshield pillar where the line from pitot comes into  the cockpit you can  cut it and blow it out there and just puta piece of tygon over top of it  again.    Same thing goes for  your line to Static   port .

  

 Dave 

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

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dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:42 am Post subject: Vixen Information

Paul , 

  

 Very nice   !!    <<It will go 118 mph  (tested again and again) flat out wide open on floats.>>

  

 My  582 on the same amphibs is about 96 to 98  Wide open   Throttle. 

  

 My ASI reads high and I have no static port outside.  GPS only way to  accurately give consistant speeds. 

  

 Dave 

  

  

 [quote]   ---

av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:18 am Post subject: Vixen Information

Bradley,



Very good information.  Thank you, thank you!  I will definitely be testing 

mine per your instructions.  That all makes good sense to do.



What's funny is how my readings are not consistent.  Here's a few pics that 

show what I'm talking about.  Check the GPS groundspeed vs the ASI.  (HInt; 

two of the photos were taken with 15-20 mph tailwinds - just for grins...and 

fwiw on the return flight I had a gs of 93 mph avg with a little more 

throttle required)  With the exception of those two photos the winds were 

for the most part calm.



Btw - Yeah, I know my EGT is not operational - bad connector that keeps 

coming loose.  And my panel labeling is still a work in progress 



Paul



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av8rps(at)tznet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:37 am Post subject: Vixen Information

Yeah, just wait until I get my 100 hp 912 on it!!

  

 I think your numbers of 96-98 mph is a good number for a 582  powered plane on floats.  Cubs are all of 75 mph on floats unless they have  large engines.  And they aren't even amphibs.

  

 Haven't been doing any flying, too cold around here.  How  about you?

  

 Paul

 [quote]   ---

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:46 am Post subject: Vixen Information

I'd try the balloon test but  don't ask me to try to regulate a low enough pitot pressure with my warm damp  breath on my expensive ASI.

  

 Better still find a friend who  has access to a Barfield tester.

  

  

 

Noel [quote]   

   --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Beemer

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Middle Georgia

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:25 am Post subject: Vixen Information

The balloon test I got from the RV builders. Seems to be a good way to see if the lines are sealed up. Visual inspection of the tube isn’t good enough.  

Bradley  

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys

 Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 10:44 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Re: Vixen Information  

  

     

I'd try the balloon test but don't ask me to try to regulate a low enough pitot pressure with my warm damp breath on my expensive ASI.  

    

   

    

Better still find a friend who has access to a Barfield tester.  

    

   

    

   

  

Noel  [quote]  

--

_________________
Beemer
KF2 (and now an M3!)
Suzuki G10 three-banger
Middle Georgia

Beemer

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Middle Georgia

Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:27 am Post subject: Vixen Information

My readings were not at all consistent either. It'd go from zero to 40, back

again, then to 60, etc. I knew what it was after a few minutes of looking at

it. The instrument was brand new.



Now, on a calm day, my ASI is matched perfectly to the GPS. I'm happy with

it.

Bradley



--

_________________
Beemer
KF2 (and now an M3!)
Suzuki G10 three-banger
Middle Georgia

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