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Introduction To List - Thanks & Spreadsheet

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james.s.clark(at)comcast.
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 9:04 pm Post subject: Introduction To List - Thanks & Spreadsheet

Hello again all,



Thanks for the responses. I have tried to combine new questions and  

responses to others questions here to save list traffic...



Research is the best part of getting ready for this...I'll bet I  

already have 300-400 hours and only a DVD from Vans purchased so far...



Jesse-Thanks, I appreciate the advice to save on the panel at first.  

I'll work on trimming that to a minimal IFR platform with glass that  

can be grown without buying anything in panel that later gets out-ed  

by something else.



Kelly-Thanks, the 32k already included the TruTrak digiflight-II VSGV  

and a Garmin 496 in the airgizmo mount.



Russ-Actually, I was looking at 3 screen Horizon 1 with 2x AHRS (I'm  

a timid IFR pilot who likes backup). Although this is what I have  

spending the most time looking at recently...no matter how much I  

read the cross connects and interconnects in the GRT documentation, I  

can't get a clear picture of how it would work with: (Horizon1  

GRTSport Horizon1) as you have it. Doesn't that limit the HSI from  

being on the 2nd screen where you want it? I'll probably have lots  

more questions for you to help me in this area in the coming weeks.  

Please tell me what is overkill and what makes sense: 3 Horizon (each  

with a 5H WAAS GPS) & 2 separate AHRS? I see now that you can buy a  

second AHRS one in the same box for only 1500. Is this any less  

redundant? Your panel has been one of my "mentors" . Why did you  

choose the sport & the middle location instead of position #3 for the  

sport? Thanks. If I get 2 of the Horizon1's each with internal WAAS  

5Hz GPS, I assume I have to run 2 antennas. 3 internal gps's would  

probably be nuts right?



Jeff- I'm located in northern VA.



Crazy ebay ad: Noticed the RV7 N-Number of ad posters neighbor/friend  

is also visible in last picture in ad: N577AZ has address near  

individual you listed so I think your little investigative work is  

correct.



Attached is a spreadsheet I have spent weeks compiling (will probably  

spend weeks more refining). I have one set of quantities shown but  

would be interested in hearing others suggestions to add or subtract  

specific items. This as it stands indicates price > 140k and that  

worries me because I'm sure there is at least 10k of hidden costs as  

indicated by Anh and Tim. I hope this spreadsheet might be useful to  

someone. If others have spreadsheets / lists such as this it would  

help me greatly to see them. Where can I save money in this list... 



Thanks,

Jim Clark

---Wishing 3 cheltons cost the same as 3 dynons...

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RV10_Costs_(version_1).xls

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Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:10 am Post subject: Introduction To List - Thanks & Spreadsheet

Jim



Some things to consider adding to your list.



1. Shipping, Not just for QB, but for Empenage, Finishing,  FFW,  

Engine, Avionics, etc. and the 20-50 additional orders that you will 

place to Van's, Aircraft Spruce, etc. (it adds up!). Easily another $1-2k

2. Heated Pitot  (IFR?) $400

3. Wiring. Harnesses; Are you going to do it yourself? Even so you will 

have hundreds to thousands of dollars in wire, pins,connectors, 

terminals, circuit breakers, switches, dimmers etc. Do you have the 

tools to do the wiring crimpers, strippers, pin insertion/removal, 

solder ? If not add at least a couple hundred more for these.

4. Replacement parts and shipping, you may be the only builder to do it 

all right the 1st time, but if not you may have to purchase replacement 

parts, packaging, shipping... (min several hundred $'s

5. Will you prime your aircraft? if so add cost of primer (not cheap) 

and application tools. Will you paint the interior of your plane?

6. Interior? The front seats that Van's sends do not include even the 

foam for cushions. Add $1k -$10k

7. Composite/fiberglass supplies epoxy, hardener, cloth, fillers, 

thickeners, primers, and tools. (Fiberglass dulls/ruins metal working 

tools very fast) There's more fiberglass on this kit than you would 

suspect at 1st

8. Do you have an existing shop that is well equipped with tools?  (e.g 

2 different torque wrenches, compressor, spray gun/s, air hoses, ...), 

The RV kits are just the additional tools that you will need. You should 

think seriously about a pneumatic squeezer, or think about extending the 

timeframe to build. There must easily be 20,000 rivets in the plane.

9. Not sure what you include in Firewall Forward accessories, but Van's 

kit price exceeds your cost for this  and the prop governor.

10. CHT & EGT probes and sensors and wiring harness.

12. A professional paint job After you are flying will likely cost you 

at least $7-8K. and those that do it for RV's are booked a year out. 

(You may be able to do it for less if you find someone locally and paint 

the parts while you're building. but I talked with another builder a 

couple of nights ago who went this route and it cost him $6-8k)

11. Have you considered the annual operating costs? Insurance alone will 

likely run you $3-4k



When I was at a similar stage in my decision/planning process I thought 

I could build and fly the plane for $129k. (that was 2 price increase 

cycles ago) I've blown through that figure considerably, part of the 

reason was I didn't anticipate some of the above, and the rest of the 

reasons were decisions I made along the way that consciously added cost.



I think that virtually all of the people on this list will tell you that 

their costs/ final estimates exceeded their original estimates by a 

significantly greater margin than they originally anticipated. (I 

finally got to the point where I quit updating my spreadsheet, because I 

wanted to stay in a state of denial!). Just make sure that your 

planning/decision process leaves some realistic contingencies available 

if you miss your original budget.  There's too much love and passion 

that goes into building these things to see it lost/halted part way 

through the process.



 Deems Davis # 406

Finishing FWF - ( A Misnomer ! )

http://deemsrv10.com/

James S. Clark IV wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hello again all,



 Thanks for the responses. I have tried to combine new questions and 

 responses to others questions here to save list traffic...

- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -

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rv10(at)sinkrate.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:58 am Post subject: Introduction To List - Thanks & Spreadsheet

James,



I didn't see any mention of antennas.  Here are some examples for

planning...



COM  $149 x 2 CI-122

NAV  $299 x 1 (VOR) CI-157C

XPDR $129 x 1 KA-61



-Ben



--

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AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:02 am Post subject: Introduction To List - Thanks & Spreadsheet

Deems - you did a comprehensive and accurate assessment on the pursuit

towards reality cost of an RV-10.  I might add that the modifications

that you made would be found by many as "Wow, I should have done that as

well".  I think your review is balanced and accurate.



Tim might chime in on his final flying cost as well. Even Randy would

likely say finishing a flyable RV-10 for Jim's budget number is a long

shot. Let me acknowledge that several have done it on the cheap, but for

the lack of a nail, corners should not be cut.  Choosing IFR makes the

budget an entirely different beast than the Day VFR Cruiser this was

supposed to be.  Jesse could list exactly what things could be

considered to leave it "Upgradeable to IFR" well down the road.



It won't be a Cirrus but it will fit like a glove and be custom to your

needs, while still being much more fiscally realistic to operate.  Take

the original VANS estimate of cost (2005 dollars), factor in the

increases in kit prices since then, add the % increase in engine cost in

just the last 36 months.  Now project it out another 36 months.  You

should be within 7% accurate.



John Cox

"Eyes Wide Open" through the entire process - 25% more than budget is

the norm.

#40600

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jwt(at)roadmapscoaching.c
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 5:20 pm Post subject: Introduction To List - Thanks & Spreadsheet

Jim,



I am in Richmond. You are welcome to come down and look our 10 over.



John Testement

jwt(at)roadmapscoaching.com

40321

Richmond, VA

FWF, engine, wiring

do not archive

 



--

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robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:26 pm Post subject: Introduction To List - Thanks & Spreadsheet

Jim,

	I may have missed it in the disussion but insurance is another

consideration. The -10 will probably be significantly more expensive to

insure; fortunately you get to split that cost too.

	On the other side one day you will sell your plane. More likely

sooner rather than later when in a partnership. If you choose to build a

-10 I suspect that you will see more of your initial "investment" back

from a -10 than a fully loaded -7(A). (IMHO)



Robin

RV-4 Sold

Flying RV-6A 325 Hours

RV-10 in pieces



I have an unlimited budget & I expect to exceed it.

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