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Gull-wing Doors

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heliav8r(at)swbell.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:30 pm Post subject: Gull-wing Doors

I am considering replacing the canopy with  gull-wing doors like that on the CH2000.  Does anyone have information on  how I should go about that change?  Anyone have drawings or suggestions as  to how I could accomplish this?

  

 Samm Munn

Zenith 601XL (plans builder),  Corvair

 (129% to go)

   [quote][b]

tya2(at)4-fly.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:57 pm Post subject: Gull-wing Doors

Dear Samm,

 

 I own a CH2000.   The factory offers an upgrade kit out of Georgia with all of the parts necessary to do the change over from the old style CH2000 to AMD Alarus style Ch2000.   Go to www.newplane.com   prices can be found in the owners section.   The information is kind of scanty but the pictures of the CH640 construction on one of the local builders websites will show you how it is done.

 

 Personally the best kind of Canopy is the AA-1 or AA-5 style as used in the Grumman AA-x series.  Split in the middle and slides back like an F-86...   You can choose to fly with the canopy open and that is a fine feeling on warm days.   Turn off the radios and fly nordo through the mountains

 

 Rocky near Edmonton, AB

 

 

 

 

 At 04:30 PM 8/15/2006 -0500, you wrote:

 [quote]I am considering replacing the canopy with gull-wing doors like that on the CH2000.  Does anyone have information on how I should go about that change?  Anyone have drawings or suggestions as to how I could accomplish this?

  

 Samm Munn

 Zenith 601XL (plans builder), Corvair

 (129% to go)

 

  	  Quote: 	
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[/b] 	
[b]

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:35 pm Post subject: Gull-wing Doors

Samm,

The gull wing doors I've seen on a few 601 series weren't too well 

represented.  The problem being that the stability between the vertical 

edges had no serious

framework to keep things in sound alignment in flight.  The hinges at 

the top were placed too far apart to allow both to be open at the same 

time.  I suspect the

added framework for rigidity at the hinges would add some considerable 

weight as well.  The gull wing doors are best seen on the composite type 

aircraft where

support is full perimeter.  The complexity is a challenge and I hope 

you're able to do better than the ones I've seen so far.  It's a neat 

concept if done well, but that's

the hard part with this bubble canopy and for all of the above, I'd be 

reluctant to do it. 

The forward tilt canopy is really much easier to do and use, but that's 

just an opinion.



Good luck, seriously,



Larry McFarland - 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

Samm Munn wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I am considering replacing the canopy with gull-wing doors like that 

 on the CH2000.  Does anyone have information on how I should go about 

 that change?  Anyone have drawings or suggestions as to how I could 

 accomplish this?

  

 Samm Munn

 Zenith 601XL (plans builder), Corvair

 (129% to go)

steveadams

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:23 am Post subject: Re: Gull-wing Doors

The canopy on the CH2000 and CH640 with gull wing doors is a one piece structure built from carbon fiber which extends from the firewall back to the rear windows. It is amazingly thin and light, but very strong. I think to put gull wing doors on a 601, you would need to build something similar, and would need to be pretty good at working with composites. Not that it couldn't be done, but it would be a very big job, and would likely change the aerodynamics of the 601 unless you built it to the same profile as the current canopy. To build it from aluminum would IMHO be extremely difficult to do right.



Steve Adams

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: Gull-wing Doors

[quote="tya2(at)4-fly.net"]Dear Samm,

 

 I own a CH2000.   The factory offers an upgrade kit out of Georgia with all of the parts necessary to do the change over from the old style CH2000 to AMD Alarus style Ch2000.   Go to www.newplane.com   prices can be found in the owners section.   The information is kind of scanty but the pictures of the CH640 construction on one of the local builders websites will show you how it is done.

 

 Personally the best kind of Canopy is the AA-1 or AA-5 style as used in the Grumman AA-x series.  Split in the middle and slides back like an F-86...   You can choose to fly with the canopy open and that is a fine feeling on warm days.   Turn off the radios and fly nordo through the mountains

 

 Rocky near Edmonton, AB

 

 

 

 

 At 04:30 PM 8/15/2006 -0500, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I am considering replacing the canopy with gull-wing doors like that on the CH2000.  Does anyone have information on how I should go about that change?  Anyone have drawings or suggestions as to how I could accomplish this?

  

 Samm Munn

 Zenith 601XL (plans builder), Corvair

 (129% to go)

 

  	  Quote: 	
		   http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List

- NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -

http://forums.matronics.com

- NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -

http://wiki.matronics.com

- List Contribution Web Site -

-Matt Dralle, List Admin.

http://www.matronics.com/contribution



[/b] 	
[b] 	




Do you know the link of the guy building the CH640 and his pix of the gull wing doors. I'm interested in this option too. Any other info on the AA-1 and AA-5 sliding canopy? That sounds interesting too. Thanks

steveadams

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:51 am Post subject: Re: Gull-wing Doors

Here is a photo of the CH2000,CH640 cabin structure.

cabin.jpg

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ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:33 am Post subject: Re: Gull-wing Doors

 	  steveadams wrote: 	
		  Here is a photo of the CH2000,CH640 cabin structure. 	




I see no reason why that can't be easily adaptable to the CH601XL. If you ask me the CH2000 looks just like a CH601XL except with a hardtop canopy.



[img]http--www.airbum.com-pireps-CH20001.jpg[/img]



Doesn't even look all that difficult to make, unless I'm missing something.

CH20001.jpg

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45.73 KB

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Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:41 am Post subject: Re: Gull-wing Doors

To each his own... but that big bubble canopy on the 601XL was a big selling point for me.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

pilot4pay

Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 171
Location: Louisville, KY

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:50 am Post subject: Gull-wing Doors

I used to monitor the RV list, and after listening to them complain about

the quality of the canopy, I'm glad I've chosen to go with Zenith, not to

mention not having to buck all those rivets! Looks like very high quality

glass work.



Craig Smith

--

_________________
Craig Smith
CH640 builder
SN: 0078

"Just think how stupid the average person is,
and then realize that half of them are even stupider!"
--George Carlin

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:56 am Post subject: Re: Gull-wing Doors

 	  Gig Giacona wrote: 	
		  To each his own... but that big bubble canopy on the 601XL was a big selling point for me. 	




 	  Gig Giacona wrote: 	
		  To each his own... but that big bubble canopy on the 601XL was a big selling point for me. 	




To each his own.



I like the hardtop. Looks like a Piper Cherokee. May give a little more roll-over protection too if done right. I also don't like the idea of being trapped in a bubble upside down, you can pop the door latch (per a lot of flight manuals in prep for an emergency landing) prior to landing, especially if it's a regular front hinge door like a Cherokee. Not only that but I'd be easier and cleaner to put a couple slider windows in the thing and it also offers some measure of sun protection without giving up too much visibility. To me the hardtop just looks more like a GA airplane. I think it's cool and would probably be cheaper too. Also, it looks like something I can make and repair. Crack a fullsized bubble canopy while doing something to it and you're screwed and have to buy a new one. I also don't like the idea of having something on the plane I can't make myself or would be really hard-pressed to make. Worst case if for some reason say the smaller windshield cracked and I couldn't find another one at a reasonable price, it'd be a hell of a lot easier to make a small plexi-glass front or side windshield that it would be to make a full-sized canopy. I intend to keep this plane for a long time. If in 2030 I need a windshield and the company that made the original wasn't around I wouldn't be SOL.

Jaybannist(at)cs.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:34 am Post subject: Gull-wing Doors

The 640 may be similar to the 601XL, but look at the proximity of the spar insertion hole to the main landing gear attach bracket. It's MUCH different from the 601XL. I see quite a few, less obvious, differences in the fuselage structure.  It's nopt just a 601XL with a different canopy.



Jay in Dallas

Do not archive

"ashontz" <ashontz(at)nbme.org> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

steveadams wrote:

> Here is a photo of the CH2000,CH640 cabin structure.

I see no reason why that can't be easily adaptable to the CH601XL. If you ask me the CH2000 looks just like a CH601XL except with a hardtop canopy.



[img]http--www.airbum.com-pireps-CH20001.jpg[/img]



Doesn't even look all that difficult to make, unless I'm missing something.



--------

CH601XL - Corvair

www.mykitlog.com/ashontz





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=94676#94676

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:14 am Post subject: Re: Gull-wing Doors

 	  Jaybannist(at)cs.com wrote: 	
		  The 640 may be similar to the 601XL, but look at the proximity of the spar insertion hole to the main landing gear attach bracket. It's MUCH different from the 601XL. I see quite a few, less obvious, differences in the fuselage structure.  It's nopt just a 601XL with a different canopy.



Jay in Dallas

Do not archive

"ashontz" <ashontz> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

steveadams wrote:

> Here is a photo of the CH2000,CH640 cabin structure.

I see no reason why that can't be easily adaptable to the CH601XL. If you ask me the CH2000 looks just like a CH601XL except with a hardtop canopy.



[img]http--www.airbum.com-pireps-CH20001.jpg[/img]



Doesn't even look all that difficult to make, unless I'm missing something.



--------

CH601XL - Corvair

www.mykitlog.com/ashontz





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=94676#94676



	
	




I'm sure a 640 or a ch2000 aren't just a scaled up version of a 601xl, but they are very similar looking from photos, especially before the canopy is installed. I don't see any obvious reason that a canopy from one model couldn't be adapted to another model. I guess what I'm getting at is that in either case, the canopy doesn't appear to add to the structural intengrity of the fuselage, certainly not in the XL and I would venture to guess that it doesn't add anything structurally from a design stand-point (that's needed anyway) to the CH2000 or the 640 and any additional strength it does add is just a bonus, kind of like a hardtop versus convertible car. You can put the top down or cut the hardtop off a Chrysler Seibring and it wouldn't effect the strength of the chasis because they're built on the same chasis and the structural integrity is not compromised sans a roof.

agustafson(at)chartermi.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:01 am Post subject: Gull-wing Doors

That $20 piece of Plexi selling for $1000 was why I modified to use flat 

Lexan and am now sealing the gull wing doors on my HD.



Aaron Gustafson  do not archive

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Gull-wing Doors

 	  agustafson(at)chartermi.n wrote: 	
		  That $20 piece of Plexi selling for $1000 was why I modified to use flat 

Lexan and am now sealing the gull wing doors on my HD.



Aaron Gustafson  do not archive 	




Yeah, that's way to much for a piece of formed plexiglass.

steveadams

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 191

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:08 am Post subject: Re: Gull-wing Doors

I am sure that you could adapt a similar designed canopy to the 601, however it would have to be built from scratch, not a modification of the 640 canopy because the dimensions are all different. In the 640 it is a structural component of the fuselage, tying the upper 1/2 of the firewall into the fuselage. It is also quite complex, made completely of carbon fiber, with many areas a sandwiched structure with an inner and outer layup. Since it wouldn't be primarily structural in a 601, you could probably make a much simpler design and use fiberglass rather than carbon fiber however it would have to be pretty sturdy to give adequate support to the doors and the roll over protection you are looking for. Also, being a very well made $4000 piece of the 640, it is definitely not cheap.

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:15 am Post subject: Re: Gull-wing Doors

 	  steveadams wrote: 	
		  I am sure that you could adapt a similar designed canopy to the 601, however it would have to be built from scratch, not a modification of the 640 canopy because the dimensions are all different. In the 640 it is a structural component of the fuselage, tying the upper 1/2 of the firewall into the fuselage. It is also quite complex, made completely of carbon fiber, with many areas a sandwiched structure with an inner and outer layup. Since it wouldn't be primarily structural in a 601, you could probably make a much simpler design and use fiberglass rather than carbon fiber however it would have to be pretty sturdy to give adequate support to the doors and the roll over protection you are looking for. Also, being a very well made $4000 piece of the 640, it is definitely not cheap. 	




Good info. I was wondering it was structural or not in the 640. Obviously it wouldn't be in the 601XL so the contruction woould be easier. I'm going to have to look into this.

caspainhower(at)aep.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:08 am Post subject: Gull-wing Doors

I considered gull-wing doors also, there are a few flying out there. I

ended up designing cantilever hinges so I could have a permanent windshield

and rear opening canopy. I had Todd at www.toddscanopies.com build a custom

canopy with a little extra headroom and a more gradual rear slope. For the

scratch builders out there, he produces an excellent product at a

reasonable price.



Craig

N601XS, 601xl, 0-235 lyc, wiring/plumbing left



I see no reason why that can't be easily adaptable to the CH601XL. If you

ask me

the CH2000 looks just like a CH601XL except with a hardtop canopy.



Doesn't even look all that difficult to make, unless I'm missing something.



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