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Gas Tank Study
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JRatcli256(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:36 pm Post subject: Gas Tank Study

Hi Gang,

  

 I'm looking into increased fuel supply for my Mark 3x. I think size, shape, location and angle would have a large effect on the lowest usable fuel level. also soughing of fuel fore & aft and various angles of bank would seriously effect stability and again - useable fuel levels. Distance from the rotation point having the most effect.

  

 Have a program that will allow me to draw various shape/size tanks and rotate it around an axis. Could rotate it around the center of the tank, but don't think this would be correct. Need to determine the longitudinal and vertical axis an aircraft rotates around, especially the Mark 3x in coordinated flight.

 I can move the axis wherever I want in the program.

  

 Think it would be at some point along the cord-line of the wing - centerline of the airframe, possibly at the balance point.

  

 Know there must be an engineer or someone out there that can guide me.

  

 Any takers? John H. you must have taken this into consideration when planning your larger tank.

  

 Thanks -- John Ratcliffe

  [quote][b]

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:19 pm Post subject: Gas Tank Study

There are all kinds of theories, but in  the real world, John has a very workable solution that has served him well.  

 Mine is quite different, it is mostly  in the gap seal area between the wings, but it serves me well. And since I can't  weld aluminum, it was suitable for my skill level. As far as distance from the  rotation point, stability - I don't know about that, but at the last Kolb  Homecoming before he left us, Norm flew my MKIII and said it flew  delightfully, more like a Firefly than a MKIII. I value that very highly, so I  guess having the gas tank up high doesn't hurt.

  

 Here's how it works - 

 http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg1.htm

 Have modified the upper part of the  tank since I made that page, to see how it looks now, go here -

 http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg2.htm

  

 Richard Pike

 MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

 [quote]   ---

_________________
Richard Pike
Kolb MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Kingsport, TN 3TN0

Forgiving is tough, being forgiven is wonderful, and God's grace really is amazing.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:38 pm Post subject: Gas Tank Study

John R:



Designing a fuel tank for the mkIII is pretty easy.  Get some good 

card board or chart board.  Construct the tank out of the card board 

to fit the space it is going into.



Cross baffle the inside.



Design the bottom of the tank to have a lowest point that every drop 

of fuel will drain out when the airplane is in straight and level 

flight attitude.



Built ours out of .050" 5052 aluminum sheet.  Pop riveted together, 

then welded it.  Sloshed four times with Randolph fuel tank slosh and 

seal for auto fuel and avgas.



Any questions?



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Bickham

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 170
Location: St. Francisville, LA

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:00 am Post subject: Re: Gas Tank Study

Just some pitures from my recent efforts.  It is basically the Brothers Hauck design.  A little thicker (.063").  Originally calculated 20.5 gallon capacity.  Ended up 21.5 gallons when I did the flow test and level gauge markings check.

Still haven't flight tested it yet!

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_________________
Thanks too much,

John Bickham
Mark III-C w/ 912UL
St. Francisville, LA

I know many pilots and a few true aviators. There is a distinct difference that I have the greatest respect for.

Michael Sharp

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 118
Location: Oak Grove, MO (Kansas City)

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:05 am Post subject: Gas Tank Study

John, 



NICE! 



How many Workhrs do you have in fabrication? 



Thanks,

Mike in MO



---

_________________
The air up there in the clouds is very pure and fine...And why shouldn't it be?-
--It is the same the angels breathe.
Mark Twain,
Roughing it' 1886

Mike

jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:40 am Post subject: Gas Tank Study

Are you going for a Kolb record of non-stop coast to coast?



Wow, that's a lot of fuel!

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Just some pitures from my recent efforts.  It is basically the Brothers

 Hauck design.  A little thicker (.063").  Originally calculated 20.5

 gallon capacity.  Ended up 21.5 gallons when I did the flow test and level

 gauge markings check.

 Still haven't flight tested it yet!



 --------

 Thanks too much,



 John Bickham

 Mark III-C

 &quot;Using my Repairman Certificate&quot;

 St. Francisville, LA



 Do Not Archive

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 9:01 am Post subject: Gas Tank Study

| Are you going for a Kolb record of non-stop coast to coast?

|

| Wow, that's a lot of fuel!



jim dunn



Hi Jim:



20.5 gals is a lot of fuel when compared with 5 or 10 gal fuel 

systems.  My tank is 25.0 gal.



Wish we could fly coast to coast non-stop on that amount of fuel, but 

that is not the case, not at 4 or 5 gph and about 24 hours flight time 

from California to my strip in Alabama.



Fuel is safety, primarily.  Fuel is convenience.  When we run low on 

fuel, other problems will usually rear their heads, i.e., wind, 

weather, darkness, unavailability of fuel at the next intended stop, 

and on and on, until Murphy runs out of ideas.



With a lot of fuel on board I have the luxury of looking at my GPS, 

ETE (estimated time enroute), looking over at the fuel sight gauge, 

and making an instant decision on weather I have fuel to make it with 

an adequate reserve, or I need to find some place to land a little 

nearer.  Slowing down to conserve fuel to make it to the next 

available fuel is a "last" option for me.  Many other factors are 

involved in flying cross country.  A lot of places I fly I have to 

have a lot of fuel in order to make it to the next because there is no 

place to land for fuel in between.



I never did understand the FAA's intention when writing a 5 gal limit 

into Part 103.  To me, more fuel is safety.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Rex Rodebush

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 209
Location: Branson West area, Missouri

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:15 am Post subject: Re: Gas Tank Study

Here are some pictures of my gas tank mock up and fabrication.  the shape allows it to be installed with just one cage tube cut out.  The sloped sides allow for room to install the fuel pump, gascolator, hot box and battery.  It's about 19 1/2 gallons.  I added an extra fitting on top so I could pump fuel into it from an aux. tank in the passenger seat if ever required.  I had to fabricate and weld in a mounting platform for it to sit on.



Rex Rodebush

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:06 pm Post subject: Gas Tank Study

Rex:



My fuel tank is very much the same shape as yours.  We designed mine 

to fit in the upper rear half of the fuselage in order to open up the 

bottom rear for a cargo compartment.  Looks like you could do the same 

thing and not kill available cargo space.



With 25.0 gal I never consider using the left seat for an aux tank. 

That is my flight desk.  



A couple things I could never get over to the Kolb folks is a nice 

generous cargo compartment and a big fuel tank.  Maybe if we keep 

reminding them that these are quite necessary items for those of us 

that like cross country flying, we can get them working on a couple 

upgrades.



Glad to see folks upgrading fuel capacity during the building phase of 

their projects, and not after they are complete.  Most folks finish 

the airplane, fly it a few hours, and immediately want more fuel.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Rex Rodebush

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 209
Location: Branson West area, Missouri

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Gas Tank Study

Hi John,



I thought about mounting the tank as you did but was concerned about aft C.G.  (I know this has been talked about before and your tank has not been a problem for you!).  Anyway, while the area under the tank will have the battery, hot box, fuel pump, gascolator and ELT; I will make a storage area behind the tank, accessable from the outside, for lighter stuff.  ie, sleeping bag, tent, etc.



Rex

John Bickham

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 170
Location: St. Francisville, LA

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Gas Tank Study

 	  Quote: 	
		  Are you going for a Kolb record of non-stop coast to coast? 



Wow, that's a lot of fuel! 	




Jim and all, 



The fuel tank, equipment, and setup should be setup for the type of flying you intend to do.  I learned this the hard way on the way to MV 2004.  Bad experience.  Combination of pilot error and changing weather conditions.  Long story.  Another thread. 



Short story is got caught by mid morning ground fog that developed after one hour into first leg.  It wasn't in the original weather briefing I got that morning.  Learned to pay closer attention to temp/dew point spread.  Made off field landing.  Bent plane.  Lucky to be here today.  More divine intervention than luck.  God intervened and got me down to 10 feet AGL.  When HE gave me the plane back I dropped it in from 8 - 10 feet.  The sky was blue 30- 40 minutes after my flight terminated in the hay field.  John H's advice to "Don't quite flying until your finished crashing" really applied that day.



I really enjoy long XC's with other Kolb drivers.  Plan one day to land in each of the lower 48 states within a calendar year.  I will also add that the minimum fuel requirement of 30 minute reserve for day VFR is not enough for the slower speed of our little planes.  There are some legs out west that won't get you there in no wind conditions with the standard 10 gallon tanks.  I had 14 gallon tanks at the time. The fuel capacity gives you options that you need due to changing weather/wind and just in case you are not in case you are not making the best decsions that day.



With the help and advice of John H, Jim H, John W, Paul Petty, and a few others, I am just about finished with the repairs and modifications of my plane.  It will be a better and more capable plane for the type of flying I want to do.



Hope to be flying in a few weeks if work shedule allows.



Be safer than me.  One day I could give a safety talk on how the "chain of small decisions and circumstances" can lead you to an incident or accident if you don't realize.  It is hard to accept that you screwed up.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:14 am Post subject: Gas Tank Study

|One day I could give a safety talk on how the "chain of small 

decisions and circumstances" can lead you to an incident or accident 

if you don't realize.  It is hard to accept that you screwed up.

 | John Bickham



John B:



Murphy is a tough character to deal with.  If you play with him, he 

usually wins.



This is not hearsay.  He has had a vendeta for me as long as I have 

been flying.



john h

mkIII



DO NOT ARCHIVE

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:16 am Post subject: Gas Tank Study

| I thought about mounting the tank as you did but was concerned 

about aft C.G.  (I know this has been talked about before and your 

tank has not been a problem for you!).   |

| Rex

Rex:



Neither has the 11.6 lb Maule Tundra Pneumatic Tailwheel and 125+ lbs 

of gear under the 150 lbs of fuel.



Your system will work fine, but will be limited on amount of gear you 

will be able to carry.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Bickham

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 170
Location: St. Francisville, LA

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:52 am Post subject: Re: Gas Tank Study

 	  Quote: 	
		  Rex Rodebush Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:30 am    Post subject: Re: Gas Tank Study 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Hi John, 



I thought about mounting the tank as you did but was concerned about aft C.G. 

 	




I too was concerned with aft CG.  I'm not an engineer, but here was my feeble attempt to distribute the load of the tank more forward.  I added a small brace that connected to the tubing that supported the original tank.



Just another way of doing it.  I think is will help some.  Either way, it stiffens everything up.

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pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 9:54 am Post subject: Gas Tank Study

One day I could give a safety talk on how the "chain of small decisions and 

circumstances" can lead you to an incident or accident if you don't realize. 

It is hard to accept that you screwed up.>>



Hi John,

I think that would be appreciated on the list. That `small bad decisions` 

scenario is rather more likely to apply to our sort of flying than an 

accident resulting from a single disastrous occurence.



Cheers



Pat



do not archive

jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 10:11 am Post subject: Gas Tank Study

I think we could all give that talk.  Glad to have you with us.



 	  Quote: 	
		   


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Be safer than me.  One day I could give a safety talk on how the "chain of

 small decisions and circumstances" can lead you to an incident or accident

 if you don't realize.  It is hard to accept that you screwed up.


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   John Bickham

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

Paul Petty

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Mississippi

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Gas Tank Study

Rex,



Did you add some fuselage to the rear of your airplane? If so why? Looks good!

_________________
Paul Petty
Kolbra #12
Ms Dixie
912 UL 70" warp

Rex Rodebush

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 209
Location: Branson West area, Missouri

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: Gas Tank Study

Rex, 



Did you add some fuselage to the rear of your airplane? If so why? Looks good........



Paul,



No, the cage is as received from Kolb.  It was one of the first X-tra cages.  I think the present ones are a little different in the back.



Rex

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:04 pm Post subject: Gas Tank Study

Rex, John B, Gang:



Does my heart good to see you guys getting ready to do a little cross 

country in your Kolbs.  To me, that is what it is all about.  Nothing 

more exciting than loading up the airplane, and heading out to new 

places, a long ways off, to meet new people and enjoy the way those 

folks live.  By golly, it'll get your heart racing and have you 

sitting on the edge of your seat.



Have made plans to move my mkIII home to do the updates next week. 

Tired of sitting on the ground looking up.  There is no where down 

here I can get that "good old feeling" that I get when I break ground 

and my Kolb is taking me flying.



john h

mkIII



    DO NOT ARCHIVE

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

by0ung(at)brigham.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:48 am Post subject: Gas Tank Study

I don't know if it would help or not....   when I ordered the 16 gal alum

fuel tank from the old kolb company,,  it came fitted right behind the seat.

In doing W&B on the fuel tank I found it to be almost centered on the rear

cg.   When flying solo in the mkIII C  I fly near the rear cg.  So from full

to empty on the fuel level does not change the cg enough to matter  ( going

from memory  less than 1 / 4 inch.   When I have two on board the cg of the

plane is further forward,  causing a fuel burn to move the cg more to the

front as the fuel burns off.



If anyone is interested let me know.



Boyd Young

MkIII C

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