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earlwhite4(at)verizon.net
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 Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:50 pm Post subject: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conve |
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Please excuse this newbie. Not really sure how the forum is going to work, but I will keep trying untill I get it right.
OK, I have my private license, but I HATE the small cessnas that I had to train in because you can't see out of them well enough Almost got killed in a midair situation. The other plane never saw me either, and we missed at a 90 degree angle by about 3 or four feet. No time to react.
Anyway, I have a friend who has no access to this fine site, No email. Lives in rural Kansas, and the IP is not into good service, so he does without. We communicate from his work email and by phone. The friend's name is Bruce Bennett and he has two Kitfoxes.
The first one is a GEO metro conversion that he bought from his father in law about two years ago.
It will fly for a few minutes before it overheats and he has to land, so he never leaves the pattern.
This is really a shame because it's a beautiful bird.
Starts easy, runs strong untill it overheats and he has to set it down. Bruce is a good pilot and also has his private pilot's license.
The Geo is a 1000 cc three cylinder with a Raven re-drive and a three bladed prop. I believe that he can achieve 5200 engine rpms on the ground without a problem.
Radiator- Bruce's kitfox kit had a radiator for a Rotax installation in the items included with the plane, but his father in law opted for the GEO for the reason of cost and availabillity. Bruce's father in law lost his medical, and could no longer fly, so Bruce bought the project and has been trying to fly off the neccessary hours to get the plane ready for it's homebuilt inspection and certification papers. the radiator from the Rotax 912 was plumbed into the system and was mounted across the fuselage under the belly of the bird right in the airstream. there was no shroud or cowling. It didn't provide enough cooling, and the temp would reach 220 in about two minutes flying time. The engine would never over heat on the ground which we thought was puzzling, but would wait untill you were on the crosswind or downwind leg of the pattern and the rpm's would start to drop off. We thought this to be rather a downing gripe, so we tried several other arrangements with larger radiators. One of these was about 2 ft square, and also hung down below the fuselage directly in the airstream, and it did provide more flying time, but at the expense of a huge amount of drag, whichalso limited the airspeed to about 55 or 60. With this confiuration on a cool day, the plane did not overheat, but was definitely nose heavy, and the large area of the radiator was too much drag for the machine to call it anything but an experiment. We knew this, of course, but it was a way to help troubleshoot the overheating problem that was not too complicated or hard to understand. BUT there has been no real improvement in this situation for about a year, and Bruce has put the Kitfox asside for a more flyable aircraft which is an Ercoupe. There is no overheating problem with it, , and it is more of a dependable ride by far.
So what I need from this group if anyone has the time or can steer me in the right direction a source of Kitfox owners that are still running the non-turbo GEO conversions with the Raven RE-drive who are NOT overheating and who are willing to share their experiences and know how. Maybe some pics. I will get a list of questions together for Bruce to answer, and be the Laision officer, but I'm sure that Bruce would answer any and all who might be willing to help in any way.
Anyone can send me email off the forum and I will be more than glad to forward it to Bruce and get this Kitfox fixed once and for all.
Thanks and hello from North Idaho!
Earl White
[quote][b]
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donpearsall
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:37 am Post subject: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conve |
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Earl, welcome to the Kitfox List, and tell your friend welcome too.
I have heard of lots of situations like this one, where a radiator is obviously not cooling as it should. The problem is that the airstream finds its way around the radiator with little air actually going through the radiator fins. It is the old story of the path of least resistance. Air going through the radiator is actually quite draggy as you know, and a high pressure builds up in front of the radiator, with not enough low pressure behind it.
The only solution is a cowling around the rad that will create a high and low pressure. I am sure there are lots of pics around that show this. There are many builders on this list that have built their own custom cowlings, and I am sure they will chime in.
Don Pearsall <![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]>
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Earl White
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 6:49 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conversion.
Please excuse this newbie. Not really sure how the forum is going to work, but I will keep trying untill I get it right.
OK, I have my private license, but I HATE the small cessnas that I had to train in because you can't see out of them well enough Almost got killed in a midair situation. The other plane never saw me either, and we missed at a 90 degree angle by about 3 or four feet. No time to react.
Anyway, I have a friend who has no access to this fine site, No email. Lives in rural Kansas, and the IP is not into good service, so he does without. We communicate from his work email and by phone. The friend's name is Bruce Bennett and he has two Kitfoxes.
The first one is a GEO metro conversion that he bought from his father in law about two years ago.
It will fly for a few minutes before it overheats and he has to land, so he never leaves the pattern.
This is really a shame because it's a beautiful bird.
Starts easy, runs strong untill it overheats and he has to set it down. Bruce is a good pilot and also has his private pilot's license.
The Geo is a 1000 cc three cylinder with a Raven re-drive and a three bladed prop. I believe that he can achieve 5200 engine rpms on the ground without a problem.
Radiator- Bruce's kitfox kit had a radiator for a Rotax installation in the items included with the plane, but his father in law opted for the GEO for the reason of cost and availabillity. Bruce's father in law lost his medical, and could no longer fly, so Bruce bought the project and has been trying to fly off the neccessary hours to get the plane ready for it's homebuilt inspection and certification papers. the radiator from the Rotax 912 was plumbed into the system and was mounted across the fuselage under the belly of the bird right in the airstream. there was no shroud or cowling. It didn't provide enough cooling, and the temp would reach 220 in about two minutes flying time. The engine would never over heat on the ground which we thought was puzzling, but would wait untill you were on the crosswind or downwind leg of the pattern and the rpm's would start to drop off. We thought this to be rather a downing gripe, so we tried several other arrangements with larger radiators. One of these was about 2 ft square, and also hung down below the fuselage directly in the airstream, and it did provide more flying time, but at the expense of a huge amount of drag, whichalso limited the airspeed to about 55 or 60. With this confiuration on a cool day, the plane did not overheat, but was definitely nose heavy, and the large area of the radiator was too much drag for the machine to call it anything but an experiment. We knew this, of course, but it was a way to help troubleshoot the overheating problem that was not too complicated or hard to understand. BUT there has been no real improvement in this situation for about a year, and Bruce has put the Kitfox asside for a more flyable aircraft which is an Ercoupe. There is no overheating problem with it, , and it is more of a dependable ride by far.
So what I need from this group if anyone has the time or can steer me in the right direction a source of Kitfox owners that are still running the non-turbo GEO conversions with the Raven RE-drive who are NOT overheating and who are willing to share their experiences and know how. Maybe some pics. I will get a list of questions together for Bruce to answer, and be the Laision officer, but I'm sure that Bruce would answer any and all who might be willing to help in any way.
Anyone can send me email off the forum and I will be more than glad to forward it to Bruce and get this Kitfox fixed once and for all.
Thanks and hello from North Idaho!
Earl White
01234
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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nolan_donahue(at)yahoo.co
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conve |
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In response to the overheating problem, before
sticking larger and larger radiators on the thing,
make sure that your cooling system is working
properly. Theoretically a 912 radiator should be large
enough since both engines produce about the same
power, so troubleshoot other areas of your cooling
system.
How is your water pump? I'm sure a new one isn't too
expensive (and don't get a cheapo rebuilt one either)
Also, most water pumps are belt driven and are
designed to work most eficiently at a typical cruising
rpm. You are running the engine at roughly twice the
RPM of a car so the pump may be spinning too fast. You
may want to try changing your pulleys to slow down the
pump. This may seem backwards, but car racers do this
all the time (they call them under drive pulleys) with
good results.
Also are you sure the coolant passages are clean? If
this is a used engine that hasn't been torn down and
hot tanked, there could be lots of deposits in there.
You could try running a cooling system flush to clean
it out.
Your thermostat could either be sticking, or working
properly but not allowing enough water flow for the
continous high power output. I'd remove it. The rotax
dosen't have one.
What type of coolant are you running? I know rotax
calls for straight antifreeze but if you run straight
water it will run much cooler. If the climate allows
it, try that. If it dosn't, use no more than 30%
antifreeze, also water wetter is a product that you
add to your coolant that I think works by lowering the
surface tension of the coolant and allowing it to cool
better. I've used this in a car that ran hot and it
works pretty well.
What type of cowling are you using? If you're running
a cowling other than the standard one, the airflow
could be different and not allow enough airflow
through the radiator.
Is your radiator plugged up? Especially if your
engines coolant passages are dirty, this could have
gotten into the radiator and restricted it. After you
flush out the engine, take the radiator to a shop to
have them clean it out.
Do you have an oil cooler? this will help dissipate
some of the engine heat and let the coolant do less
work. of course if your oil temp is low already than
this won't help, but if you keep your oil temps
arround 160 or so this coud help.
I think a systematic approach will give you some
answers. And I'd be carefull about running the engine
to the point of overheating repeatedly. That can do
lots of dammage.
Good luck
We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
(and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Beemer
Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Middle Georgia
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:56 pm Post subject: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conve |
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Earl,
I am flying a Geo 1.0L G10 on my Kitfox 2. I have an aftermarket radiator inside the stock KF cowl, and I’m using the Raven system as well. So far, it is a real gem. It is heavier than a 582, but much more reliable and is better economically.
Right now, I am running at 208F water temp, and am slowly working to get it lower. 220F is not too hot, IF you adhere to certain axioms. The G13 has been proven to fly at 230F for short periods, with no issues. Remember, this is not a Rotax. It can take the heat without killing you. But it’s not good in the long term.
I suggest you subscribe to the Yahoo FlyGeo newsgroups. There are two of them. We just discussed this very issue at length, so a short search will yield many answers. For example, the water pump may be cavitating at high RPM, the intake hose may be crushing, or the thermostat may be causing the radiator cap to burp fluid. Only assumptions, but these are the things I learned on the group to watch for – all of which are very fixable, once you find out if the problem exists.
We have quite a few very knowledgeable people there, who now much about these engines. Also, Raven monitors the group, and pipes up when needed.
Also, if you have the Raven drive, contact Jeron there. He is very helpful, and can point you in the right direction. If you email me directly, I would be glad to help in any way I can. I am very happy with my conversion.
Bradley
From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Earl White
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 9:49 PM
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conversion.
Please excuse this newbie. Not really sure how the forum is going to work, but I will keep trying untill I get it right.
OK, I have my private license, but I HATE the small cessnas that I had to train in because you can't see out of them well enough Almost got killed in a midair situation. The other plane never saw me either, and we missed at a 90 degree angle by about 3 or four feet. No time to react.
Anyway, I have a friend who has no access to this fine site, No email. Lives in rural Kansas, and the IP is not into good service, so he does without. We communicate from his work email and by phone. The friend's name is Bruce Bennett and he has two Kitfoxes.
The first one is a GEO metro conversion that he bought from his father in law about two years ago.
It will fly for a few minutes before it overheats and he has to land, so he never leaves the pattern.
This is really a shame because it's a beautiful bird.
Starts easy, runs strong untill it overheats and he has to set it down. Bruce is a good pilot and also has his private pilot's license.
The Geo is a 1000 cc three cylinder with a Raven re-drive and a three bladed prop. I believe that he can achieve 5200 engine rpms on the ground without a problem.
Radiator- Bruce's kitfox kit had a radiator for a Rotax installation in the items included with the plane, but his father in law opted for the GEO for the reason of cost and availabillity. Bruce's father in law lost his medical, and could no longer fly, so Bruce bought the project and has been trying to fly off the neccessary hours to get the plane ready for it's homebuilt inspection and certification papers. the radiator from the Rotax 912 was plumbed into the system and was mounted across the fuselage under the belly of the bird right in the airstream. there was no shroud or cowling. It didn't provide enough cooling, and the temp would reach 220 in about two minutes flying time. The engine would never over heat on the ground which we thought was puzzling, but would wait untill you were on the crosswind or downwind leg of the pattern and the rpm's would start to drop off. We thought this to be rather a downing gripe, so we tried several other arrangements with larger radiators. One of these was about 2 ft square, and also hung down below the fuselage directly in the airstream, and it did provide more flying time, but at the expense of a huge amount of drag, whichalso limited the airspeed to about 55 or 60. With this confiuration on a cool day, the plane did not overheat, but was definitely nose heavy, and the large area of the radiator was too much drag for the machine to call it anything but an experiment. We knew this, of course, but it was a way to help troubleshoot the overheating problem that was not too complicated or hard to understand. BUT there has been no real improvement in this situation for about a year, and Bruce has put the Kitfox asside for a more flyable aircraft which is an Ercoupe. There is no overheating problem with it, , and it is more of a dependable ride by far.
So what I need from this group if anyone has the time or can steer me in the right direction a source of Kitfox owners that are still running the non-turbo GEO conversions with the Raven RE-drive who are NOT overheating and who are willing to share their experiences and know how. Maybe some pics. I will get a list of questions together for Bruce to answer, and be the Laision officer, but I'm sure that Bruce would answer any and all who might be willing to help in any way.
Anyone can send me email off the forum and I will be more than glad to forward it to Bruce and get this Kitfox fixed once and for all.
Thanks and hello from North Idaho!
Earl White
| Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
01234
[quote][b]
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
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_________________
Beemer
KF2 (and now an M3!)
Suzuki G10 three-banger
Middle Georgia |
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kitfox69(at)earthlink.net
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:52 pm Post subject: To the Kitfox group - Info about the latest on the GEO conve |
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Hi Earl,
Contact Jay Roese on his cell 585-729-5098 and discribe your problem to him. He will get it worked out for you.
I expect he will contact the Geo engine manufacturer, General Motors I think, and get the cooling requirements for that engine. Then he will contact his radiator builder and have them build you a radiator that fits the engines needs. Also, Lowell is correct that proper direction of the airflow thru the radiator is important. I achieved it with aluminum flashing and cowl seal. Just cut it and form it to fit between the radiator and the cowl in a way that the airflow pushes it in place and directs all the air thru the radiator. It worked for me after years of overheating problems with an inadequate NSI design. Regards, Floyd
[quote] ---
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