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Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:38 am Post subject: GPS

Kurt, Dave and Lynn,



On Feb 9, 2007, at 8:34 PM, kurt schrader wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   But at a guess, I'd say you are seeing some reflecting

 signals off the water confusing your GPS a bit.


	


You are into something, Kurt! When I flew to Belgium, I noticed that 

the "breadcrumbs" of the GPS moving map, where scattered over a certain 

area of my flight over Germany. It started exactly at the edge of a 

muddy bay and ended exactly at it's end. Now, this is a tidal North Sea 

cove that nearly entirely dries out at low tide. And it was low tide: 

very wet mud.



Lynn, such magnetic disturbances are not uncommon. I know of an 

important one off the coast of Portugal. While I agree with Garmin that 

a lot of things can affect the GPS signal reception, I really doubt 

that this magnetic abnormality is the cause because, while an uneven 

ferrous terrain will deviate the compass, it is not producing by itself 

a magnetic field. Then the magnetic field from the Garmin screen should 

be much more influential on you GPS antenna because much, much closer!



If your GPS didn't register your stop, it must be because of something 

in the GPS software that detects your stop. In my GPS with PocketFMS 

software, I've put 30 MPH as the lower limit of non-flying. What's 

yours? You see, even in a place where the signal is disturbed by 

whatever, your GPS may show scattered successive positions but it would 

be very weird if none of those came under your lowest level of speed 

for being airborne.



Cheers,

Michel



Do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:07 am Post subject: GPS

In a previous response from Garmin Tech Support,  they told me that  

the unit starts a flight when it sees 500 feet AGL, and assuming that  

it quits the flight when you descend to 500 feet AGL, the flight into  

Escanaba should have been recorded.

The response was to a question that I had about the flight log. First  

some background info. My uncharted, private field is about 2.5 miles  

from a charted airport. My flight log often shows me taking off or  

landing at this charted airport, when in fact I have been doing (for  

example) pattern work at my field. This is annoying, but I live with  

it. When I asked Garmin about this problem, they told me about the  

500-foot thing. They told me to use an "airport identifier symbol" to  

mark my field, and to be sure that I entered an elevation for my  

field. Here is their response:



"One thing that you will need to make sure is that you have entered a

elevation for your airport.  If the elevation is wrong or missing  

then it

will pull the closest airport.  Also if a public airport and a private

airport are close like the situation that you have described here  

then the

unit will prefer the public airport over the private airport."



I didn't keep their response regarding the identifier symbol or the  

500-foot elevation for the flight log starting point...I wish I had.



In regards to the "scattered successive positions", I did indeed have  

the breadcrumb trail interrupted on one leg of the trip, but I just  

figured that a mouse got on board somehow, and was having a party. : )



Lynn

do not archive



On Feb 10, 2007, at 3:37 AM, Michel Verheughe wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 If your GPS didn't register your stop, it must be because of  

 something in the GPS software that detects your stop. In my GPS  

 with PocketFMS software, I've put 30 MPH as the lower limit of non- 

 flying. What's yours? You see, even in a place where the signal is  

 disturbed by whatever, your GPS may show scattered successive  

 positions but it would be very weird if none of those came under  

 your lowest level of speed for being airborne.



 Cheers,

 Michel



 Do not archive

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:00 am Post subject: GPS

Lynn,



We that discussion a few weeks ago about my  Garmin 196 --

I pointed out to Michel  that my does not log unless over 500 AGL and over 

30 knots speed.

The latter is a given but the 500 AGL is something that I don't always see 

on short flights.



Surely you were over 500 AGL ?



Also I am not positive but I am not sure if you can alter those settings  in 

the Garmin.



You can alter the VNAV  settings though and set up some non precision 

approaches.  I have some set up  now and at   500 feet agl and  1 Mile back 

I am usually within   1/8 mile  of the runway  centreline.  Mind you, I have 

set these up for grass strips and Lakes where I frequent.  Certainnly not a 

ILS approach but helpful.



Happy Flying !!



Dave

---

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Bob

Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Damascus, Maryland, USA

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 5:37 am Post subject: Re: GPS

Around here, we use hand-held GPS units for guidance, but have learned to not trust them. Friends and I have discussed seeing hand-held GPS units lock up or jump positions.  My own units that have done this are a Garmin RINO 120 (hiking unit) on the motorcycle and Anywheremap in the cockpit.  I know of an older Garmin aviation hand-held doing the same and my old instructor talked about seeing it, I think on his Lowrance 500.   Living in the "occupied territory" north of Washington DC (Disney Central), knowledge of how close we are to the special use airspace is all that stands between us and a formation flight with a helicopter, or loss of our pilot license, so most of the locals either know absolutely where they are from experience or keep a paper map (even outdated) on their lap while the GPS is on.



Typically, you're moving along, the countryside is going by, and you suddenly realize that the map hasn't shown movement.  As I understand, the maps are electronically "stitched" together and every now and then the process stops to think or just stops.



Note that this is only for hand-helds. With a panel-mounted IFR receiver, I have heard stories about scattered tracks and have seen signal loss (disappearance of the airplane icon), but never frozen icon.



On a related aspect, keep the tracks that the GPS records if you are ever even marginally near special use airspace.  The FAA regularly seems to mix up N-numbers and accuse people of going where they shouldn't.  That's a fight that you can't win without knowing how to secure radar records which may be over-written by the time they call, or having the track history from yur GPS.



Bob

_________________
Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay.

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:19 am Post subject: GPS

I think I read somewhere that you can download the tracks, or for  

that matter any info on the GPS, into your PC and print it out.  

Unfortunately, I'm on a Macintosh, but I have friends who are on  

PC's, and could probably do it there. Garmin was supposed to come out  

with Mac-compatible software (?), but I haven't heard of it yet.



Lynn

do not archive

On Feb 10, 2007, at 8:37 AM, Bob wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 On a related aspect, keep the tracks that the GPS records if you  

 are ever even marginally near special use airspace.  The FAA  

 regularly seems to mix up N-numbers and accuse people of going  

 where they shouldn't.  That's a fight that you can't win without  

 knowing how to secure radar records which may be over-written by  

 the time they call, or having the track history from yur GPS.



 Bob

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 6:28 am Post subject: GPS

Over 500 AGL? Yeah, about 5000-7000 over 500AGL...I got up to 8200'  

MSL at one point when trying to keep the clouds below me...while of  

course keeping the surface in view.

I'll look into the settings page on my 296 to see if there are any  

changes that I can make....thanks Dave.

When I lift off at my home field, I'm about 500 AGL when I'm within  

the area of the charted field that I mentioned, which is why the unit  

thinks that I just departed from that charted field. If I take off in  

an easterly direction, away from the charted field, the unit will  

SOMETIMES say that I left MY field, sometimes not...toss a coin. : )



Lynn

do not archive



On Feb 10, 2007, at 7:58 AM, dave wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Surely you were over 500 AGL ?



 Also I am not positive but I am not sure if you can alter those  

 settings  in the Garmin.



 You can alter the VNAV  settings though and set up some non  

 precision approaches.  I have some set up  now and at   500 feet  

 agl and  1 Mile back I am usually within   1/8 mile  of the runway   

 centreline.  Mind you, I have set these up for grass strips and  

 Lakes where I frequent.  Certainnly not a ILS approach but helpful.



 Happy Flying !!



 Dave

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:50 am Post subject: GPS

Somebody please educate me.



The 196 can't tell how far above ground level you are because it doesn't

have ground level data in it.   (???)  (You can get a USGS data base and

load into to it so you have contour data, but if you don't have that how can

it tell how for above ground you are?)



Randy - My field is at 4400'



.           



--

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:44 pm Post subject: GPS

On Feb 10, 2007, at 7:49 PM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   The 196 can't tell how far above ground level you are because it 

 doesn't

 have ground level data in it.   (???)


	


 From what I understand from Lynn and Dave, Randy, is that the 

instrument will register a stop if you are less than 500 feet at, or in 

the vicinity of an airfield of which the altitude AMSL is known and in 

the database.



Cheers,

Michel



do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:48 pm Post subject: GPS

I just got the Instruction Manual out for my 296 (when all else  

fails....), and under "Viewing the Flight Log" it says, "Recording  

begins when your speed exceeds 30 knots and you gain 500 feet of  

altitude." Further on..."If you land and groundspeed drops below 30  

knots, the flight entry is saved and a new entry will be recorded  

when you depart the airport. A touch-and-go or brief stop of less  

than ten minutes appends to the current flight record rather than  

starting a new entry."

This is contrary to what I encountered during my recent trip, but  

that's electronics for you.

And while we're on the subject, I flew to an uncharted field today,  

(with lots of snow on it, finally!) landed and stayed for an hour. I  

left there, and came home, landing on the lake. Took off from there  

after another hour stop, and put the plane away. My flight log showed  

that I first landed at JXN, then that I took off from JYM, 20 miles  

away from JXN, and landed at 3NP. Took off from 3NP, and flew Local.  

In reality, I had first landed between JXN and JYM. If someone looked  

at this flight log, they would think I trailered the plane between  

the 20-miles-apart airports. Again, fun with electronics. : ) Just  

another reason to record your flights in your logbook soon after you  

park the airplane, lest you forget where you went or how you got  

there. : )

Lynn

do not archive

On Feb 10, 2007, at 3:43 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On Feb 10, 2007, at 7:49 PM, Randy Daughenbaugh wrote:

> The 196 can't tell how far above ground level you are because it  

> doesn't

> have ground level data in it.   (???)

 From what I understand from Lynn and Dave, Randy, is that the  

 instrument will register a stop if you are less than 500 feet at,  

 or in the vicinity of an airfield of which the altitude AMSL is  

 known and in the database.

 Cheers,

 Michel

 do not archive

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Michel

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 966
Location: Norway

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 2:47 pm Post subject: GPS

On Feb 10, 2007, at 10:50 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   My flight log showed that I first landed at JXN, then that I took off 

 from JYM, 20 miles away from JXN, and landed at 3NP.


	


Yes Lynn, but - as Garmin told you - you have to define those bush 

fields as airfields with name and elevation for the flight log to 

register it. In other words, the instrument is not made for bush planes 

like the Kitfox.



Cheers,

Michel



do not archive

_________________
Kitfox 3 - Jabiru 2200

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: GPS

Ah yes, the airport elevation....  yup, that is in the database.  I guess I

overlooked that since I land at so many places that are not "airports".



Randy



Do not archive



.           

--

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:16 pm Post subject: GPS

Right you are Michel...no complaints there, but it was interesting to  

point out that I "landed" at JXN (10 miles to the NE), but "took off"  

from JYM (10 miles to the SW). Apparently the unit flipped a coin to  

see which one I was really at and the coin landed on its edge. : )

Lynn

do not archive

On Feb 10, 2007, at 5:46 PM, Michel Verheughe wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On Feb 10, 2007, at 10:50 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:

> My flight log showed that I first landed at JXN, then that I took  

> off from JYM, 20 miles away from JXN, and landed at 3NP.

 Yes Lynn, but - as Garmin told you - you have to define those bush  

 fields as airfields with name and elevation for the flight log to  

 register it. In other words, the instrument is not made for bush  

 planes like the Kitfox.

 Cheers,

 Michel

 do not archive

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:23 pm Post subject: GPS

Michel ,

I will add when I am on floats in Lakes the elevation on the GPS is pretty 

close.

I have use  Google Earth and it shows the same .

Some how  the moving map is tied into the elevation with referance to the 

GPS co-ordinates I guess.

Dave

---

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:28 pm Post subject: GPS

Lynn ,  you might have a setting that is off a bit .



I will have to pull mine out one day and run it on a program I have and it 

will show a map with every track on it.



My wife runs   X - country  and she has a GPS wristband and if  you look at 

the log of her track it shows the elevations of the hills in our woods up 

and down again.  Although her signal fades in the bush a bit when the leaves 

are full but she says rgiht now it works fine.



Amazing toys we got   !!



I will that GPS makes you a lazy navigator and you better know dead 

reckoning and have maps with you or you going to be lost if your GPS dies.



I have a NAV/Com  as well and rarely use the VOR

Dave

---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:58 pm Post subject: GPS

Yup, you're right. I just checked and the elevation is showing  

1800'...I now recall that I made that strip a waypoint when I flew  

over it last year...at apparently 1800'. Next time I land down there,  

I'll enter the elevation of 1001', give it an airport symbol and that  

should fix it.



Lynn

do not archive

On Feb 10, 2007, at 6:27 PM, dave wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Lynn ,  you might have a setting that is off a bit .

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject: GPS

Most Bell 206 pilots will write up their flight logs while waiting for the

turbines to cool down ( something like three minutes) before engine shut

down.  Maybe the best time to write up the logs is before getting out of the

plane.



Noel



[quote] --

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:11 pm Post subject: GPS

Lynn sez:



 	  Quote: 	
		  I think I read somewhere that you can download the tracks, or for 

that matter any info on the GPS, into your PC and print it out.


	


That depends on the GPS unit.  Some do, some don't.



If you are in the United States and ATC has issued you a squawk code 

(i.e., you are squawking something other than 1200), your ground 

track will show up on FlightAware <http://www.flightaware.com>.  Just 

punch in your tail number and it plots your most recent trip.  I 

don't know how long it keeps the data, but I just looked up a flight 

that dates back to the end of May, 2006 (roughly 8 months ago).



Mike G.

N728KF

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 6:47 am Post subject: GPS

Interesting site, Mike. I put in my tail number but they couldn't  

find it...guess I snuck one in there. : )

Actually, I only had to squawk/ident once during a recent flight, and  

that was on 1200, so I guess that doesn't count.

My 296 unit is supposed to be capable of downloading data  

recorded...at least that's what I understood at the time of purchase  

(2005), but I either wasn't supplied with the USB cable when I bought  

it, or I've misplaced it...and it would be for a PC anyway, and I'm  

on a Mac. I think the USB part of the equation would fit Mac or PC,  

but the Mac software isn't capable of the download...if I'm  

understanding things correctly.

Lynn

On Feb 11, 2007, at 10:10 PM, Michael Gibbs wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <MichaelGibbs(at)cox.net>

 Lynn sez:

> I think I read somewhere that you can download the tracks, or for  

> that matter any info on the GPS, into your PC and print it out.

 That depends on the GPS unit.  Some do, some don't.

 If you are in the United States and ATC has issued you a squawk  

 code (i.e., you are squawking something other than 1200), your  

 ground track will show up on FlightAware <http:// 

 www.flightaware.com>.  Just punch in your tail number and it plots  

 your most recent trip.  I don't know how long it keeps the data,  

 but I just looked up a flight that dates back to the end of May,  

 2006 (roughly 8 months ago).

 Mike G.

 N728KF

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:09 am Post subject: GPS

Lynn, 



My GPS plug to pc is a Data plug not a USB plug. 



There are many programs you can use to fetch the data.



I will fetch some later  for you and post a pic. 



Dave



---

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:22 am Post subject: GPS

Hi Dave-

My data out plug is a 5-pin connector which accepts the (missing)  

cable. The other end would be the USB end. There is also a data card  

slot.

I just called Garmin to find out about the "expected" Macintosh  

interface that was supposed to be forthcoming. They said it was being  

implemented on new products, like personal training devices  

(treadmills, bicycles, etc), but not on existing devices like my 296.  

So no point in ordering a cable in hopes of using it with my Mac, but  

maybe order one (I misplaced the one that came with my unit) to use  

with a friend's IBM/PC. Depends on how often I'd like to save a trip/ 

track, etc.



Lynn

do not archive

On Feb 12, 2007, at 10:09 AM, dave wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Lynn,

 My GPS plug to pc is a Data plug not a USB plug.

 There are many programs you can use to fetch the data.



 I will fetch some later  for you and post a pic.

 Dave

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

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