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Engine Failure in N6253X

 
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rcdettmer(at)charter.net
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:53 am    Post subject: Engine Failure in N6253X Reply with quote

Had a rather exciting Thursday last week on a business trip in N6253X (my beloved 680F). First leg of the trip was from SBP (San Luis Obispo, CA) to SQL (San Carlos, CA) to visit two projects in the bay area. Upon arrival at SQL we observed the right main gear / wheel, lower engine nacelle and wheel well coated with oil. Checked the oil reservoir, and it showed one gallon on the dipstick. We started out with approximately 4 gallons, so must have lost 2-3 gallons during the one hour flight. Nothing could be observed on the outside of the engine that would account for this oil loss. I was able to get a local engine shop to tow the plane to their facility to look it over while we conducted business in the bay area. Upon return from business around 3 PM, the engine shop had not been able to look at the plane, nor would they be able to look at it until the next day. Upon considerable discussion, we decided to top off the oil at 5 gallons and fly the plane home to SBP. It would be a short trip (about 45 minutes with strong tail winds). We planned to monitor the right engine carefully, and if it showed signs of trouble (loss of oil pressure, high CHT, etc) we would shut it down and proceed home on one engine. About 20 minutes into the flight, level at 11,500, the right engine is running fine, however we noticed that the “left” engine is showing drop in oil pressure with CHT’s going up. We are thinking “what’s going on here..??”. My co-pilot (and associate) Doug looks at the left engine and it is spewing oil out from under the engine nacelle. I immediately pull power back to about 20 inches on both engines, announce to Norcal Approach that we are making an immediate landing at SNS (Salinas) and point the nose down. The left CHT is staying in the green, and the oil pressure is down to about 15 to 20 lbs. I am hoping to make it down without losing the left engine. No such luck…about a minute later the left engine seizes with a shudder, and I feather it. With the right engine still suspect, I declare an emergency and we land without further incident at SNS. I was actually able to taxi in to parking on one engine…not easy in a Commander. Until the left engine seized, the CHT never left the green, and the oil pressure remained at about 20 lbs.
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
The folks at SNS were great, along with Norcal approach and the tower in handling our emergency. Checked oil levels in both engines…5 gals in the right (no loss of oil in the 20 minute flight), empty in the left. Turns out that the left engine threw a rod on the No. 6 cylinder, and blew a 5” diameter hole in the top of the case. The airplane is now in the good hands of Dave Teeters and Airmotive Specialties at SNS. Dave Teeters, Morris Kernick (my Commander guru from Stockton) and I spent the better part of Saturday in SNS poking around the airplane trying to determine the cause(s) of the problems experienced on both engines. The airplane just came out of annual (performed by Morris 5.5 hours ago) where 2 cylinders were replaced on the right engine, and one cylinder was replaced on the left engine. The theory on the table at this time is that we have a problem with the rings in the new cylinders. Since we have found no sources of oil leaks on the engines (blown out seals, broken hoses, loose clamps, etc) the only way for the oil to leave the engine is through the breather. If the crankcase is pressurized with combustion gases blown by the rings, the oil could be pushed out the breather..?? The right engine has been cleaned and run, with no loss of oil or oil leaks. The screens have been pulled and show lots of metal. The left engine was removed from the airplane yesterday, and cylinders will be pulled on Monday. We are very interested to see what the rings and cylinders look like.
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
Thought you guys might be interested in my situation. It is certainly curious that I did not experience any problems until 5.5 hours after the annual. The facts are that “both” engines received new cylinders, “both” engines experienced a major oil event, and both events occurred at the “same time”. Any thoughts you may have will be appreciated. I’ll keep you all informed of what we find in the coming days.
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
Randy Dettmer, AIA
680F/N6253X

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mail Signature" <![endif]-->DettmerArchitecture
663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
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CloudCraft(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:12 am    Post subject: Engine Failure in N6253X Reply with quote

In a message dated 24-Feb-07 08:56:00 Pacific Standard Time, rcdettmer(at)charter.net writes:
Quote:

Thought you guys might be interested in my situation.
That's an uderstatement! Good job on the O.E.I. approach, landing -- and the really hard part -- taxi!

Between Morris and Dave Teeters, you're in good hands and the common denominator does seem to be the new cylinders.

You didn't say if the rod failure was with one of the new jugs.

I've had bad piston rings on an IGSO-540 pressurize the case and blow oil, so I'm going to vote for that theory -- but do let us know.

Tell Morris I say hello as I know you'll be in close contact with him the next few days.

Wing Commander Gordon

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rcdettmer(at)charter.net
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:37 am    Post subject: Engine Failure in N6253X Reply with quote

The new cylinder was the outboard middle cylinder. The failed rod was on the aft outboard cylinder (next to the new cylinder).
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
Thanks for your input.
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
RD
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mail Signature" <![endif]-->DettmerArchitecture
663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
<![endif]--><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of CloudCraft(at)aol.com
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 9:12 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Engine Failure in N6253X
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
In a message dated 24-Feb-07 08:56:00 Pacific Standard Time, rcdettmer(at)charter.net writes:
Thought you guys might be interested in my situation.

[b]That's an uderstatement! Good job on the O.E.I. approach, landing -- and the really hard part -- taxi![/b]

[b]Between Morris and Dave Teeters, you're in good hands and the common denominator does seem to be the new cylinders. [/b]

[b]You didn't say if the rod failure was with one of the new jugs.[/b]

[b]I've had bad piston rings on an IGSO-540 pressurize the case and blow oil, so I'm going to vote for that theory -- but do let us know.[/b]

[b]Tell Morris I say hello as I know you'll be in close contact with him the next few days.[/b]

[b]Wing Commander Gordon[/b]
<![if !supportLineBreakNewLine]> <![endif]>

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Jerry Sprayberry



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 15
Location: Summerville, GA

PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 9:40 am    Post subject: Engine Failure in N6253X Reply with quote

Randy,

You are not at all alone on this one, as I have had a strange Oil disappearing act on my 680, it happened two times on the left side and we found the Oil separator was full of gunk, cleaned and it was again OK. I have just put a new Engine on that side which Morris found for me. I just flew it yesterday for the first time to break-in and after about :20 Minutes Oil Pres went down to 30 PSI, and the Simmonds started acting up so I feathered it and landed, I had dropped 17 quarts of Oil. We cleaned it up and did a ground run this morning and found a broken High Pressure Oil line to the OP Gage that was cracked, It made me feel a lot better knowing the reason for the loss of oil. I was able to taxi all the way back to the Hanger only because I was able to keep my speed up.

I hope you find out about yours, keep us posted.

Jerry
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John Vormbaum



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:00 am    Post subject: Re: Engine Failure in N6253X Reply with quote

Randy,

I heard about your adventures from Morris last week....I was going to call but figured you'd be in mourning for a while. I know I would.

I'm glad you got down safely, and managed to keep the right one turning. Hopefully Dave & Morris can get you back flying quickly!

/John


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tylor.hall(at)sbcglobal.n
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:00 pm    Post subject: Engine Failure in N6253X Reply with quote

Randy,
I went on line and found a IGSO-504 at Dodson if you need it.

http://www.dodson.com/engines_piston_lycoming.htm

What kind of cylinders did Morris use? New, rebuilt Lyc, or the new Superior or EIC?

Tylor Hall


"Randy Dettmer, AIA" <rcdettmer(at)charter.net> wrote:
[quote] v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} The new cylinder was the outboard middle cylinder. The failed rod was on the aft outboard cylinder (next to the new cylinder).<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Thanks for your input.

RD

DettmerArchitecture
663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com

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nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:15 pm    Post subject: Engine Failure in N6253X Reply with quote

Sorry to hear about your engines, Randy.
My hair stood on end imagining what I would think when the right engine is the suspect one and the left one fails.
I bet the guys at SQL could kick themselves for having lost a bit of work there, don’t you think? But it’s better that you are in good hands now.



From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Dettmer, AIA
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 8:52 AM
To: Commander Chat
Subject: Engine Failure in N6253X


Had a rather exciting Thursday last week on a business trip in N6253X (my beloved 680F). First leg of the trip was from SBP (San Luis Obispo, CA) to SQL (San Carlos, CA) to visit two projects in the bay area. Upon arrival at SQL we observed the right main gear / wheel, lower engine nacelle and wheel well coated with oil. Checked the oil reservoir, and it showed one gallon on the dipstick. We started out with approximately 4 gallons, so must have lost 2-3 gallons during the one hour flight. Nothing could be observed on the outside of the engine that would account for this oil loss. I was able to get a local engine shop to tow the plane to their facility to look it over while we conducted business in the bay area. Upon return from business around 3 PM, the engine shop had not been able to look at the plane, nor would they be able to look at it until the next day. Upon considerable discussion, we decided to top off the oil at 5 gallons and fly the plane home to SBP. It would be a short trip (about 45 minutes with strong tail winds). We planned to monitor the right engine carefully, and if it showed signs of trouble (loss of oil pressure, high CHT, etc) we would shut it down and proceed home on one engine. About 20 minutes into the flight, level at 11,500, the right engine is running fine, however we noticed that the “left” engine is showing drop in oil pressure with CHT’s going up. We are thinking “what’s going on here..??”. My co-pilot (and associate) Doug looks at the left engine and it is spewing oil out from under the engine nacelle. I immediately pull power back to about 20 inches on both engines, announce to Norcal Approach that we are making an immediate landing at SNS (Salinas) and point the nose down. The left CHT is staying in the green, and the oil pressure is down to about 15 to 20 lbs. I am hoping to make it down without losing the left engine. No such luck…about a minute later the left engine seizes with a shudder, and I feather it. With the right engine still suspect, I declare an emergency and we land without further incident at SNS. I was actually able to taxi in to parking on one engine…not easy in a Commander. Until the left engine seized, the CHT never left the green, and the oil pressure remained at about 20 lbs.

The folks at SNS were great, along with Norcal approach and the tower in handling our emergency. Checked oil levels in both engines…5 gals in the right (no loss of oil in the 20 minute flight), empty in the left. Turns out that the left engine threw a rod on the No. 6 cylinder, and blew a 5” diameter hole in the top of the case. The airplane is now in the good hands of Dave Teeters and Airmotive Specialties at SNS. Dave Teeters, Morris Kernick (my Commander guru from Stockton) and I spent the better part of Saturday in SNS poking around the airplane trying to determine the cause(s) of the problems experienced on both engines. The airplane just came out of annual (performed by Morris 5.5 hours ago) where 2 cylinders were replaced on the right engine, and one cylinder was replaced on the left engine. The theory on the table at this time is that we have a problem with the rings in the new cylinders. Since we have found no sources of oil leaks on the engines (blown out seals, broken hoses, loose clamps, etc) the only way for the oil to leave the engine is through the breather. If the crankcase is pressurized with combustion gases blown by the rings, the oil could be pushed out the breather..?? The right engine has been cleaned and run, with no loss of oil or oil leaks. The screens have been pulled and show lots of metal. The left engine was removed from the airplane yesterday, and cylinders will be pulled on Monday. We are very interested to see what the rings and cylinders look like.

Thought you guys might be interested in my situation. It is certainly curious that I did not experience any problems until 5.5 hours after the annual. The facts are that “both” engines received new cylinders, “both” engines experienced a major oil event, and both events occurred at the “same time”. Any thoughts you may have will be appreciated. I’ll keep you all informed of what we find in the coming days.

Randy Dettmer, AIA
680F/N6253X


DettmerArchitecture
663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
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rcdettmer(at)charter.net
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:26 pm    Post subject: Engine Failure in N6253X Reply with quote

Thanks for the thought Nico. The shop in SNS is top notch. I am lucky to have dropped out of the sky into such a capable facility.
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
RD
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
AUTOTEXTLIST \s "E-mail Signature" <![endif]-->DettmerArchitecture
663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
<![endif]--><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com]On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 3:15 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Engine Failure in N6253X
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
Sorry to hear about your engines, Randy.
My hair stood on end imagining what I would think when the right engine is the suspect one and the left one fails.
I bet the guys at SQL could kick themselves for having lost a bit of work there, don’t you think? But it’s better that you are in good hands now.



From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Dettmer, AIA
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 8:52 AM
To: Commander Chat
Subject: Engine Failure in N6253X

Had a rather exciting Thursday last week on a business trip in N6253X (my beloved 680F). First leg of the trip was from SBP (San Luis Obispo, CA) to SQL (San Carlos, CA) to visit two projects in the bay area. Upon arrival at SQL we observed the right main gear / wheel, lower engine nacelle and wheel well coated with oil. Checked the oil reservoir, and it showed one gallon on the dipstick. We started out with approximately 4 gallons, so must have lost 2-3 gallons during the one hour flight. Nothing could be observed on the outside of the engine that would account for this oil loss. I was able to get a local engine shop to tow the plane to their facility to look it over while we conducted business in the bay area. Upon return from business around 3 PM, the engine shop had not been able to look at the plane, nor would they be able to look at it until the next day. Upon considerable discussion, we decided to top off the oil at 5 gallons and fly the plane home to SBP. It would be a short trip (about 45 minutes with strong tail winds). We planned to monitor the right engine carefully, and if it showed signs of trouble (loss of oil pressure, high CHT, etc) we would shut it down and proceed home on one engine. About 20 minutes into the flight, level at 11,500, the right engine is running fine, however we noticed that the “left” engine is showing drop in oil pressure with CHT’s going up. We are thinking “what’s going on here..??”. My co-pilot (and associate) Doug looks at the left engine and it is spewing oil out from under the engine nacelle. I immediately pull power back to about 20 inches on both engines, announce to Norcal Approach that we are making an immediate landing at SNS (Salinas) and point the nose down. The left CHT is staying in the green, and the oil pressure is down to about 15 to 20 lbs. I am hoping to make it down without losing the left engine. No such luck…about a minute later the left engine seizes with a shudder, and I feather it. With the right engine still suspect, I declare an emergency and we land without further incident at SNS. I was actually able to taxi in to parking on one engine…not easy in a Commander. Until the left engine seized, the CHT never left the green, and the oil pressure remained at about 20 lbs.

The folks at SNS were great, along with Norcal approach and the tower in handling our emergency. Checked oil levels in both engines…5 gals in the right (no loss of oil in the 20 minute flight), empty in the left. Turns out that the left engine threw a rod on the No. 6 cylinder, and blew a 5” diameter hole in the top of the case. The airplane is now in the good hands of Dave Teeters and Airmotive Specialties at SNS. Dave Teeters, Morris Kernick (my Commander guru from Stockton) and I spent the better part of Saturday in SNS poking around the airplane trying to determine the cause(s) of the problems experienced on both engines. The airplane just came out of annual (performed by Morris 5.5 hours ago) where 2 cylinders were replaced on the right engine, and one cylinder was replaced on the left engine. The theory on the table at this time is that we have a problem with the rings in the new cylinders. Since we have found no sources of oil leaks on the engines (blown out seals, broken hoses, loose clamps, etc) the only way for the oil to leave the engine is through the breather. If the crankcase is pressurized with combustion gases blown by the rings, the oil could be pushed out the breather..?? The right engine has been cleaned and run, with no loss of oil or oil leaks. The screens have been pulled and show lots of metal. The left engine was removed from the airplane yesterday, and cylinders will be pulled on Monday. We are very interested to see what the rings and cylinders look like.

Thought you guys might be interested in my situation. It is certainly curious that I did not experience any problems until 5.5 hours after the annual. The facts are that “both” engines received new cylinders, “both” engines experienced a major oil event, and both events occurred at the “same time”. Any thoughts you may have will be appreciated. I’ll keep you all informed of what we find in the coming days.

Randy Dettmer, AIA
680F/N6253X


DettmerArchitecture
663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:48 pm    Post subject: Engine Failure in N6253X Reply with quote

Nice job Randy.
bilbo


From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Dettmer, AIA
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 11:52 AM
To: Commander Chat
Subject: Engine Failure in N6253X


Had a rather exciting Thursday last week on a business trip in N6253X (my beloved 680F). First leg of the trip was from SBP (San Luis Obispo, CA) to SQL (San Carlos, CA) to visit two projects in the bay area. Upon arrival at SQL we observed the right main gear / wheel, lower engine nacelle and wheel well coated with oil. Checked the oil reservoir, and it showed one gallon on the dipstick. We started out with approximately 4 gallons, so must have lost 2-3 gallons during the one hour flight. Nothing could be observed on the outside of the engine that would account for this oil loss. I was able to get a local engine shop to tow the plane to their facility to look it over while we conducted business in the bay area. Upon return from business around 3 PM, the engine shop had not been able to look at the plane, nor would they be able to look at it until the next day. Upon considerable discussion, we decided to top off the oil at 5 gallons and fly the plane home to SBP. It would be a short trip (about 45 minutes with strong tail winds). We planned to monitor the right engine carefully, and if it showed signs of trouble (loss of oil pressure, high CHT, etc) we would shut it down and proceed home on one engine. About 20 minutes into the flight, level at 11,500, the right engine is running fine, however we noticed that the “left” engine is showing drop in oil pressure with CHT’s going up. We are thinking “what’s going on here..??”. My co-pilot (and associate) Doug looks at the left engine and it is spewing oil out from under the engine nacelle. I immediately pull power back to about 20 inches on both engines, announce to Norcal Approach that we are making an immediate landing at SNS (Salinas) and point the nose down. The left CHT is staying in the green, and the oil pressure is down to about 15 to 20 lbs. I am hoping to make it down without losing the left engine. No such luck…about a minute later the left engine seizes with a shudder, and I feather it. With the right engine still suspect, I declare an emergency and we land without further incident at SNS. I was actually able to taxi in to parking on one engine…not easy in a Commander. Until the left engine seized, the CHT never left the green, and the oil pressure remained at about 20 lbs.

The folks at SNS were great, along with Norcal approach and the tower in handling our emergency. Checked oil levels in both engines…5 gals in the right (no loss of oil in the 20 minute flight), empty in the left. Turns out that the left engine threw a rod on the No. 6 cylinder, and blew a 5” diameter hole in the top of the case. The airplane is now in the good hands of Dave Teeters and Airmotive Specialties at SNS. Dave Teeters, Morris Kernick (my Commander guru from Stockton) and I spent the better part of Saturday in SNS poking around the airplane trying to determine the cause(s) of the problems experienced on both engines. The airplane just came out of annual (performed by Morris 5.5 hours ago) where 2 cylinders were replaced on the right engine, and one cylinder was replaced on the left engine. The theory on the table at this time is that we have a problem with the rings in the new cylinders. Since we have found no sources of oil leaks on the engines (blown out seals, broken hoses, loose clamps, etc) the only way for the oil to leave the engine is through the breather. If the crankcase is pressurized with combustion gases blown by the rings, the oil could be pushed out the breather..?? The right engine has been cleaned and run, with no loss of oil or oil leaks. The screens have been pulled and show lots of metal. The left engine was removed from the airplane yesterday, and cylinders will be pulled on Monday. We are very interested to see what the rings and cylinders look like.

Thought you guys might be interested in my situation. It is certainly curious that I did not experience any problems until 5.5 hours after the annual. The facts are that “both” engines received new cylinders, “both” engines experienced a major oil event, and both events occurred at the “same time”. Any thoughts you may have will be appreciated. I’ll keep you all informed of what we find in the coming days.

Randy Dettmer, AIA
680F/N6253X


DettmerArchitecture
663 Hill Street, San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
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kamala(at)MSN.COM
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:08 pm    Post subject: Engine Failure in N6253X Reply with quote

<?xml:namespace prefix="v" /><?xml:namespace prefix="o" /><![endif]--> you just have to love these planes. mason
[quote] ---


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WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:19 am    Post subject: Engine Failure in N6253X Reply with quote

Randy, What brand of cylinders did you install? Thanks Gil p.s. Glad you were able to get it on the ground.

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dowens(at)aerialviewpoint
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:03 pm    Post subject: Engine Failure in N6253X Reply with quote

OK


David Owens
Aerial Viewpoint
N14AV
AC-500A-Colemill


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