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Glass for IFR
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johncollier5110(at)msn.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:19 am Post subject: Glass for IFR

Guys and Gals,



     I'm starting to plan out my avionics.  I'm leaning toward an all glass 

panel - IFR legal.  I'm considering a couple of Dynon's with backup 

batteries.  I've brainstormed (to the best of my abilities) all the possible 

ways I could get myself into trouble.  With backup batteries in each dynon 

I'm "relatively" safe from a total electrical failure.   Also, if I lose one 

EFIS...I'll switch to the other dynon for flight data.



     Looking for some advice and recommendations... what I'm I overlooking 

or not considering?



Thanks

John



_________________________________________________________________

Find a local pizza place, movie theater, and more….then map the best route! 

http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag1&FORM=MGAC01

dav1111(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:43 am Post subject: Glass for IFR

I have an all glass IFR panel in my RV-10 and love  it.  You can see it at:

  

 http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=panelinstalled1bl4.jpg

  

 It is a three screen Grand Rapids system with weather  overlay and I love it.  The center glass screen is a sport model with it's  own AHRS for backup.

  

 As far as backup batteries as long as you can identify a  battery or alternator failure they are somewhat unnecessary.  The amount of  amps drawn by a single EFIS system and an autopilot is so small that you can do  an IFR let down on your main battery with little problems.

  

 I went ahead and put an SD-8 backup on my engine as a  backup to the alternator just to be on the safe side however.

  

 Best regards,

  

 Russ Daves

 N710RV - Flying RV-10

 N65RV - RV-6A sold

  

  

    [quote][b]

rtitsworth

Joined: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 76
Location: Detroit, Mi

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:15 am Post subject: Glass for IFR

A thought/scenario… If you had some sort of electrical fire (smoke, serious smell, etc), and were unsure of the source, and wanted to shutdown the alternator(s) and master(s), what would be left?  Seems that having a small, local, dedicated stby battery attached to an attitude instrument would be helpful (necessary) in IMC – especially if you plan on flying high enough that it takes several minutes (or longer) to descent to safety.  Assuming of course that stby instrument is not the original smoke problem.  

My .02  

Rick  

         

  

  

From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Russell Daves

 

     

… As far as backup batteries as long as you can identify a battery or alternator failure they are somewhat unnecessary.  The amount of amps drawn by a single EFIS system and an autopilot is so small that you can do an IFR let down on your main battery with little problems.  

    

   

  

        [quote][b]

Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:18 am Post subject: Glass for IFR

Nice panel. I  have a stupid question, if you're flying along in solid IMC and all of a sudden  one of your EFIS says you're turning right and the other says you're turning  left, on which one do you bet your life?

  

  

 

Bruce

www.glasair.org

   [quote]   

   --

rv9jim(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:20 am Post subject: Glass for IFR

Hi Bruce,

        That is what the turn coordinator / wing leveler from TT is for! 

))



Jim

Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:51 am Post subject: Glass for IFR

OK, I looked again at your panel picture and darn, I just can't see that TT

TC.



Bruce

www.glasair.org

 



--

brianpublic2(at)starband.
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:07 am Post subject: Glass for IFR

I went with multiple brands, on the idea that any hardware or software

problems with one brand would not show up in the second brand.   I chose

Blue Mountain as primary and Grand Rapids as secondary.   I also later ended

up getting a Dynon as third, instead of a turn coordinator.   Whether this

turns out to be better than, say, a dual screen, dual AHRS GRT with TruTrak

A/P remains to be discovered.   See avionics pages for details



brian

http://brian76.mystarband.net/RV-7Ahome.htm

--

brianpublic2(at)starband.
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:08 am Post subject: Glass for IFR

This thought, as well as the previous one from Rick Gray, are, IMHO, a good reason for a third display.   My thinking was that by not buying a turn coordinator, ½ of a Dynon is already paid for.   It’s small and self-contained.  And it has it’s own internal battery, so you can shut down all else, and it will still work.  

brian  

<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>  

--

Bret Smith

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 178
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:01 pm Post subject: Glass for IFR

Bruce, why is that scary?  The autopilot is considered  a primary instrument during single-pilot IFR.  This is also a procedure  taught during IFR training.

  

 Bret Smith

 RV-9A (91314)

 Mineral Bluff, GA

 www.FlightInnovations.com

  



   From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce  Gray

Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 10:33 AM

To:  rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Glass for IFRGlass for  IFR

 

 Now that's  scary!

  

  

 

Bruce

www.glasair.org

   [quote]   

   --

_________________
Bret Smith
RV-9A (Emp)

Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:52 pm Post subject: Glass for IFR

Back in my  Aero Engineering school days we had to study a subject called Human Factors  Engineering or man/machine interfacing. Most pilots like to flip a switch/pull a  knob and then monitor the results of that action, in real time, as the desired  or commanded action takes place. Move the stick and watch the ADI change. This  is called closed loop control, the pilot is in the control loop and can reverse  or correct any undesired results. 

  

 With your  autopilot controlled recovery and a dark EFIS, the pilot is out of the control  loop. While the results might be successful, the time waiting for the end of the  process, to me at least would be terrifying. With a redundant ADI, ASI, and  altimeter the pilot would at least be able to monitor the aircrafts return to  controlled flight. It's all a matter of what your comfortable with, I guess.  Engaging the autopilot and hoping for the best just doesn't cut it with  me.

  

  

 

Bruce

www.glasair.org

   [quote]   

   --

Bret Smith

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 178
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:30 pm Post subject: Glass for IFR

>Engaging the autopilot and hoping for  the best just doesn't cut it with me.<

  

 Whatever lightens your "worry bucket"... Like Sam  said, my A/P is ALWAYS on in solid IMC.

  

 Bret Smith

 RV-9A (91314)

 Mineral Bluff, GA

 www.FlightInnovations.com

  



   From: owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce  Gray

Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:51 PM

To:  rv-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: RE: Glass for  IFR

 

 Back in my  Aero Engineering school days we had to study a subject called Human Factors  Engineering or man/machine interfacing. Most pilots like to flip a switch/pull a  knob and then monitor the results of that action, in real time, as the desired  or commanded action takes place. Move the stick and watch the ADI change. This  is called closed loop control, the pilot is in the control loop and can reverse  or correct any undesired results. 

  

 With your  autopilot controlled recovery and a dark EFIS, the pilot is out of the control  loop. While the results might be successful, the time waiting for the end of the  process, to me at least would be terrifying. With a redundant ADI, ASI, and  altimeter the pilot would at least be able to monitor the aircrafts return to  controlled flight. It's all a matter of what your comfortable with, I guess.  Engaging the autopilot and hoping for the best just doesn't cut it with  me.

  

  

 

Bruce

www.glasair.org

   [quote]   

   --

_________________
Bret Smith
RV-9A (Emp)

Bruce(at)glasair.org
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:56 pm Post subject: Glass for IFR

Surprisingly,  so is mine.

  

  

 

Bruce

www.glasair.org

   [quote]   

   --

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:31 am Post subject: Glass for IFR

 	  Quote: 	
		   >Engaging the autopilot and hoping for the best just doesn't cut it 

with me.<
	


 	  Quote: 	
		    

 Whatever lightens your "worry bucket"... Like Sam said, my A/P is 

ALWAYS on in solid IMC.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

There is the key.  Keep the A/P on.  With my Trio autopilot connected to 
	


a GNS 430, I question whether a GNS 430 failure would cause the plane to 

depart belly to earth flight.



Will that happen if one of your EFISs die completely or suffer another 

undiscovered bug like happened to Mike?



Ron

Lee



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ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:14 am Post subject: Glass for IFR

 	  Quote: 	
		   Why not vacuum?  Weight, cost, lousy reliability come to mind.  My

 personal belief is you would typically overhaul (or experience

 failure) of a vacuum system several times over before your properly

 designed and installed electrical whizzies hiccoughed for the first

 time.

 

 IMO, of course.


	


I just ordered a new vacuum pump.  Failed after about 1000 hours.

Mike's post (thanks Mike) shows that coding for these EFIS systems

may be less than rigorous.  We recently saw a forced landing in less 

than ideal terrain apparently because of a software problem in a

experimental class mag system.



It seems that if you are really going to fly in IFR conditions then

you might want to go up with a safety pilot and see how well you do

if certain systems go south.  Example, your only EFIS dies.  Can you 

safely fly and make an instrument approach using everything left

that is available to you?



It might be useful if suggested system components be identified that 

provides adequate redundancy in the event of a major comnponent

failure.  The groupings may be as follows:



1)  EFIS, all electric



2)  EFIS, vacuum



3)  No EFIS, all electric



4)  No EFIS, vacuum



I would fall into Group 4.  Vacuum Horizon and DG, Typical airspeed,

altimeter, rate of climb plus electric T&B.  Trio Ez-pilot autopilot.



Of course I have not finished my instrument rating.  Signed off to

take the practical but need to fix the vacuum system.



Ron Lee



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jjessen

Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:53 am Post subject: Glass for IFR

Some certified's, at least the Columbia, are using two independent electric

systems.  I would think the battery backup EFIS systems out there would also

qualify as independent.  You could certainly go vacuum as backup.  Nothing

wrong with that.  Same as going EI on top and standard mag on the bottom.

The chance of an electric and a vacuum failure at the same time would be

minimal, I would venture.  No matter what, one should, as suggested, get an

instructor and go fly in IMC with systems being taken off line in various

ways to see what it would be like and practice recovering, troubleshooting.

Nothing like practice.  



John Jessen (and this thread is just great!)   



--

ronlee(at)pcisys.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:56 am Post subject: Glass for IFR

No matter what, one should, as suggested, get an instructor and go fly 

in IMC with systems being taken off line in various ways to see what it 

would be like and practice recovering, troubleshooting.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Nothing like practice.  



Actually John, I would not go true IMC.  Use foggles or other
	


devices.  That way if you start to enter a spiral the instructor

can more easily recover or have you remove the foggles.



As someone mentioned, having an EFIS die with only a T&B (?) backup

available may be just a matter of time before you lose controlled

flight.  Assumes no autopilot of course.



Ron Lee



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jhnstniii(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:27 pm Post subject: Glass for IFR

Have been following this post with interest.  Our plan from the beginning was to fly IFR.  Here's what we did:

    

   Vacuum attitude indicator

   Backup electric attitude indicator

   Vacuum DG

   Electric T & B (S-Tec 30 with altitude hold)

   Garmin 430

    

   We plan to get a good Garmin handheld like the 496 and mount that, too, which can give you a self-contained virtual panel on internal battery.

    

   Plus, we plan to replace the vacuum pump and the alternator at regular intervals, probably every 500 hours (yep, buy new ones).  

    

   So far we haven't flown any actual IFR because we are still flight testing.

    

   Just our .02

    

   LeRoy Johnston and David White - Ohio - RV-6 Esperanza 65 hours flying.

  

 --

jacklockamy(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 6:16 am Post subject: Glass for IFR

Maybe the better way to approach inevitable vacuum pump failures is to have the pump rebuilt/replaced every 500 hrs instead of waiting for it to fail.  I believe this is the same timeframe (500 hrs) that Slick magnetos are also recommended to be rebuilt/replaced.  Would be any easy way to remember when the pump needed replacing (i.e. 500, 1000, 1500, 2000 hrs, etc.)  

   

Certainly would be cheap insurance and if nothing else... peace of mind when flying in the soup as others have mentioned.  

   

Jack  

   

do not archive  

       [quote][b]

rocketbob(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:32 am Post subject: Glass for IFR

The best approach is to use a wet vacuum pump and a separator.  I know of many wet vaccum pumps that outlived the engines they were installed in.  I don't know of a single dry pump that I've ever seen that didn't fail in the shear coupler.  I've never seen on where the vanes wore out.  If the dry pumps didn't have the silly shear coupler they would be far more reliable. 



Regards,

Bob Japundza

RV-6 flying F1 under const.



On 3/2/07, Jack Lockamy <jacklockamy(at)verizon.net  (jacklockamy(at)verizon.net)> wrote:[quote]             

Maybe the better way to approach inevitable vacuum pump failures is to have the pump rebuilt/replaced every 500 hrs instead of waiting for it to fail.  I believe this is the same timeframe (500 hrs) that Slick magnetos are also recommended to be rebuilt/replaced.  Would be any easy way to remember when the pump needed replacing (i.e. 500, 1000, 1500, 2000 hrs, etc.)  

   

Certainly would be cheap insurance and if nothing else... peace of mind when flying in the soup as others have mentioned.  

   

Jack  

   

do not archive  

       [quote][b]  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List http://forums.matronics.com  [quote][b]

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:00 am Post subject: Glass for IFR

Bob J. wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  The best approach is to use a wet vacuum pump and a separator.  I know of many wet vaccum pumps that outlived the engines they were installed in. 	
 They're heavier, and the separator isn't that efficient.  That's why the dry pump is standard on most 'newer' engines.

  	  Quote: 	
		    I don't know of a single dry pump that I've ever seen that didn't fail in the shear coupler.  I've never seen on where the vanes wore out. 	
 Well, that's why the pump fails.  The vanes are plasticized carbon, and the centripetal force keeps the vanes in contact with the pumps outer wall, which causes them to wear down slowly.  The vanes are the sacrificial parts.  When the vanes get thin ..... about 1/4" wide or so, they jam in the ports and the shear coupling fails.

  	  Quote: 	
		    If the dry pumps didn't have the silly shear coupler they would be far more reliable. 	
 Can't agree with that!  That's like replacing a fuse with a piece of metal. If the shear coupling didn't fail when the pump jammed ..... some other, weaker, link in the food chain would have to ...... maybe internal to the engine.  Who knows???  I sure wouldn't want to find out!

 

 FYI ..... I had a dry pump last more than 2000 hours on an O-235 ...... and yes, it failed as I was climbing out through the soup.  Sigh.

 Linn

 [quote]

   

 Regards,

 Bob Japundza

 RV-6 flying F1 under const.

   

   On 3/2/07, Jack Lockamy <jacklockamy(at)verizon.net    (jacklockamy(at)verizon.net)> wrote:    	  Quote: 	
		                 

Maybe the better way to approach inevitable vacuum pump failures is to have the pump rebuilt/replaced every 500 hrs instead of waiting for it to fail.  I believe this is the same timeframe (500 hrs) that Slick magnetos are also recommended to be rebuilt/replaced.  Would be any easy way to remember when the pump needed replacing (i.e. 500, 1000, 1500, 2000 hrs, etc.)     

      

Certainly would be cheap insurance and if nothing else... peace of mind when flying in the soup as others have mentioned.     

      

Jack     

      

do not archive     

           	  Quote: 	
		  



http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV-List

http://forums.matronics.com



 	  Quote: 	
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