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John H Murphy
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 78
Location: Henderson, NV
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 Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:16 am Post subject: Primer versus Choke? |
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My apologies in advance for this basic question. I have a choke on my Firestar. It's located near the recoil starter. Is the choke and primer the same? If it's not the same do most folks install a primer? If so, why?
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David.Lehman
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 265
Location: "Lovely" Fresno CA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:37 am Post subject: Primer versus Choke? |
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John...
My experience is that the "choke" is pretty much useless on a two-stroke and the primer is pretty much a necessity... Don't buy one of those Mickey Mouse black handle primers, go with a standard aircraft unit... I went through two of the black handle variety and their leaking and loss of prime, before I installed a "Cessna" unit that works every time...
Only my $.02 worth...
DVD
do not archive
On 2/27/07, John H Murphy <jhm9812(at)yahoo.com (jhm9812(at)yahoo.com) > wrote:[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John H Murphy" < jhm9812(at)yahoo.com (jhm9812(at)yahoo.com)>
My apologies in advance for this question. I have a choke on my Firestar. It's located near the recoil starter. Is the choke and primer the same? If it's not the same do most folks install a primer? If so, why?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97603#97603
_[b]
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beauford(at)tampabay.rr.c
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:53 am Post subject: Primer versus Choke? |
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Brother Murphy:
No apology required for any question asked on this List, sir....
IMHO, the "choke" or "enrichment circuit" on my 447 is next to worthless...
I had chronic difficulty starting the engine with it... and besides, there
were problems with the rubber seal at the base of the piston on that item
leaking... (see earlier threads on fun with carbon ...)
Conversely, the manual primer pump I finally installed works great, giving
first or second pull starts most of the time... Wouldn't be without one...
Worth what ye paid fer it...
Beauford
FF#076
BRS finally reinstalled
---
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a58r(at)verizon.net
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:10 am Post subject: Primer versus Choke? |
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I suffered through years of shoulder-separating 5 or 6 pulls on my
"choked" 447, until I got a tiny push button primer from Mark Smith.
Now two pulls and the mighty (means might-it go?) Rotaxi fires off.
regards,
Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:27 am Post subject: Primer versus Choke? |
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At 07:16 AM 2/27/07 -0800, you wrote:
| Quote: |
My apologies in advance for this question. I have a choke on my Firestar.
It's located near the recoil starter. Is the choke and primer the same? If
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it's not the same do most folks install a primer? If so, why?
John,
The advantage of a primer is that you can prime the engine so it will start
on the first time over compression. I mounted a primer on the Bing float
bowl. I give it two squirts, and pull the engine through compression two
times to move charge into the engine. Then I put the choke full on and hit
the starter. Engine fires on the first time over compression every time.
Saves the arm and/or battery.
The primer mod can be seen at:
http://www.thirdshift.com/jack/firefly/firefly89.html
Jack B. Hart FF004
Winchester, IN
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blackbird
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Primer versus Choke? |
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This question has come up more than once.....If you do NOT have an electric fuel pump......The bowls in the carbs can run dry after sitting for awhile..........
Most folks use a primer bulb with a bypass line(in case of bulb going bad) followed by a primer circuit..........Not even hook up the enricher circuit....
Mechanically speaking, on a 2-stroke this primer immediately gives fuel to the engine and thus reduces the cranking efforts....
The primer bulb like found on most outboard marine engines....Can and WILL deteriorate over time.....hence the bypass line....
Most experimental aircraft with fuel below the engine or in wing tanks using NO electric fuel pump....will need a primer bulb.....YOUR option...
Having batteries go dead before.....I prefer bulb over electric......
W
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David.Lehman
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 265
Location: "Lovely" Fresno CA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:20 pm Post subject: Primer versus Choke? |
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Blackbird...
I think we're doing the "apples/oranges" thing... You're referring to the squeeze bulb to replenish the carb. bowls, I'm referring to a primer "pump" that injects fuel directly into the intake manifold for starting...
DVD
do not archive
On 2/27/07, blackbird <blackbird754(at)alltel.net (blackbird754(at)alltel.net)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "blackbird" <blackbird754(at)alltel.net (blackbird754(at)alltel.net)>
This question has come up more than once.....If you do NOT have an electric fuel pump......The bowls in the carbs can run dry after sitting for awhile..........
Most folks use a primer bulb with a bypass line(in case of bulb going bad) followed by a primer circuit..........Not even hook up the enricher circuit....
Mechanically speaking, on a 2-stroke this primer immediately gives fuel to the engine and thus reduces the cranking efforts....
The primer bulb like found on most outboard marine engines....Can and WILL deteriorate over time.....hence the bypass line....
Most experimental aircraft with fuel below the engine or in wing tanks using NO electric fuel pump....will need a primer bulb.....YOUR option...
Having batteries go dead before.....I prefer bulb over electric......
W
[b]
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_________________
ô¿ô
"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute."
--- George Bernard Shaw |
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jindoguy(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:19 pm Post subject: Primer versus Choke? |
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David, I had a primer setup and blocked off enrichener valves when I bought my Kolb. Worked great for starting and I liked it. What I didn't like were the extra fuel lines routed underneath the left seat. I added back the enricheners and plugged the primer port on the carb. Now I'm thinking of adding the primer lines back but putting the plunger up by the engine with the rest of the fuel lines, that way I have the most options.
Rick
On 2/27/07, David Lehman <david(at)davidlehman.net (david(at)davidlehman.net)> wrote:[quote] Blackbird...
I think we're doing the "apples/oranges" thing... You're referring to the squeeze bulb to replenish the carb. bowls, I'm referring to a primer "pump" that injects fuel directly into the intake manifold for starting...
DVD
do not archive
On 2/27/07, blackbird < blackbird754(at)alltel.net (blackbird754(at)alltel.net)> wrote: | Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "blackbird" <blackbird754(at)alltel.net (blackbird754(at)alltel.net)>
This question has come up more than once.....If you do NOT have an electric fuel pump......The bowls in the carbs can run dry after sitting for awhile..........
Most folks use a primer bulb with a bypass line(in case of bulb going bad) followed by a primer circuit..........Not even hook up the enricher circuit....
Mechanically speaking, on a 2-stroke this primer immediately gives fuel to the engine and thus reduces the cranking efforts....
The primer bulb like found on most outboard marine engines....Can and WILL deteriorate over time.....hence the bypass line....
Most experimental aircraft with fuel below the engine or in wing tanks using NO electric fuel pump....will need a primer bulb.....YOUR option...
Having batteries go dead before.....I prefer bulb over electric......
W
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[quote][b] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List http://forums.matronics.com
when you live at the airport. [quote][b]
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d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject: Primer versus Choke? |
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At 02:32 PM 2/27/2007, blackbird wrote:
| Quote: |
Most folks use a primer bulb with a bypass line(in case of bulb going bad)
followed by a primer circuit..........Not even hook up the enricher circuit....
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How do you plumb the bypass? A check valve to prevent backflow through the
bypass while priming? And/or shutoffs to isolate the primer in flight?
-Dana
--
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Mr. Cole's Axiom:
The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant; the population is
growing.
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David.Lehman
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 265
Location: "Lovely" Fresno CA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:21 pm Post subject: Primer versus Choke? |
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Richard...
Mine's an "original" Firestar, so the primer is mounted behind the seat, below the staring rope...
DVD
On 2/27/07, Richard Girard <jindoguy(at)gmail.com (jindoguy(at)gmail.com)> wrote:[quote] David, I had a primer setup and blocked off enrichener valves when I bought my Kolb. Worked great for starting and I liked it. What I didn't like were the extra fuel lines routed underneath the left seat. I added back the enricheners and plugged the primer port on the carb. Now I'm thinking of adding the primer lines back but putting the plunger up by the engine with the rest of the fuel lines, that way I have the most options.
Rick
[b]
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_________________
ô¿ô
"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute."
--- George Bernard Shaw |
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David.Lehman
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 265
Location: "Lovely" Fresno CA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:24 pm Post subject: Primer versus Choke? |
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Richard, that's a starting rope, not a staring rope...
Dana, the bypass tees before and after the squeeze bulb... Some guys pinch the bypass when they pump the bulb, but I've found that mine fills the carb. bowl even with the bypass tube open...
DVD
do not archive
On 2/27/07, Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net (d-m-hague(at)comcast.net)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net (d-m-hague(at)comcast.net)>
At 02:32 PM 2/27/2007, blackbird wrote:
| Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "blackbird" < blackbird754(at)alltel.net (blackbird754(at)alltel.net)>
Most folks use a primer bulb with a bypass line(in case of bulb going bad)
followed by a primer circuit..........Not even hook up the enricher circuit....
|
How do you plumb the bypass? A check valve to prevent backflow through the
bypass while priming? And/or shutoffs to isolate the primer in flight?
-Dana
--
[b]
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_________________
ô¿ô
"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute."
--- George Bernard Shaw |
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blackbird
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:45 am Post subject: Re: Primer versus Choke? |
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Ok guys,
Would you plumb in the primer "tee" before or after the squeeze bulb?
Also, on my Kolbra would you run the primer to the cockpit or underneath the engine?
Really don't like the fuel up front with me........
Your thoughts....
Wayne
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David.Lehman
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 265
Location: "Lovely" Fresno CA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:18 am Post subject: Primer versus Choke? |
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Picture's worth $.02 of words...
DVD
do not archive
On 2/28/07, blackbird <blackbird754(at)alltel.net (blackbird754(at)alltel.net)> wrote: | Quote: | --> Kolb-List message posted by: "blackbird" < blackbird754(at)alltel.net (blackbird754(at)alltel.net)>
Ok guys,
Would you plumb in the primer "tee" before or after the squeeze bulb?
Also, on my Kolbra would you run the primer to the cockpit or underneath the engine?
Really don't like the fuel up front with me........
Your thoughts....
Wayne
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_________________
ô¿ô
"Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute."
--- George Bernard Shaw |
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Primer versus Choke? |
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Really nice arrangement David. Let me throw in my $.02 worth - I am not all that crazy about tie wraps as fuel line clamps, I really prefer something that will clamp the tubing in such a way that the soft tubing is pushed extra snugly around the barbs of the fittings. I am not convinced that tie wraps will do this, and I am convinced that most hose clamps do not apply even grip pressure for the full circumference of the tubing.
Here is what I use instead of either of them, details on this page:
http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/pg13.html
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
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David.Lehman
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 265
Location: "Lovely" Fresno CA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:23 am Post subject: Primer versus Choke? |
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Richard, I totally agree...
The tie wraps are on their way out... My whole fuel system is safety wired except for that area, which I need to change (most of it was plumbed before I bought the engine)... The plane's in my garage this week so that I can finish up my Navman installation and get flying Saturday...
Thanx for the advice...
DVD
do not archive
On 2/28/07, Richard Pike <richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)> wrote:[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Richard Pike" < richard(at)bcchapel.org (richard(at)bcchapel.org)>
Really nice arrangement David. Let me throw in my $.02 worth - I am not all that crazy about tie wraps as fuel line clamps, I really prefer something that will clamp the tubing in such a way that the soft tubing is pushed extra snugly around the barbs of the fittings. I am not convinced that tie wraps will do this, and I am convinced that most hose clamps do not apply even grip pressure for the full circumference of the tubing.
Here is what I use instead of either of them, details on this page:
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97879#97879
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/safety_wire_2_186.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/safety_wire1_808.jpg
[b]
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d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:10 am Post subject: Primer versus Choke? |
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At 10:18 AM 2/28/2007, David Lehman wrote:
| Quote: | Picture's worth $.02 of words...
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Looks like a neat installation. Only thing I don't see is how the bulb can
draw anything from the tank unless the bypass line is pinched off... is
that what you do?
-Dana
--
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Ever notice how fast Windows runs? Neither did I.
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David.Lehman
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 265
Location: "Lovely" Fresno CA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:28 am Post subject: Primer versus Choke? |
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Dana...
It's magic...
Seriously, I agree it shouldn't work without pinching the bypass line, but... Apparently the bulb produces more flow than the bypass can handle, so it still fills the carb. bowl (bowls, when I had the two carbs. installed) without pinching the bypass line...
DVD
do not archive
On 2/28/07, Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net (d-m-hague(at)comcast.net)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net (d-m-hague(at)comcast.net)>
At 10:18 AM 2/28/2007, David Lehman wrote:
| Quote: | Picture's worth $.02 of words...
|
Looks like a neat installation. Only thing I don't see is how the bulb can
draw anything from the tank unless the bypass line is pinched off... is
that what you do?
-Dana
--
--
Ever notice how fast Windows runs? Neither did I.
[b]
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ô¿ô
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--- George Bernard Shaw |
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a58r(at)verizon.net
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:41 am Post subject: Primer versus Choke? |
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Re: safety hose clamps. I've used soft copper instead of
steel...won't cut fuel line, and easier to use on smaller lines. Fire
away, gridleak.
regards,
Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
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blackbird
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:49 am Post subject: Re: Primer versus Choke? |
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Ok,
The primer "t" goes after the squeeze bulb.......CPS says it must be mounted in the horizontal position.....New issue..
What about the primer in the cockpit...............any thoughts?
Wayne
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planecrazzzy
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: Primer versus Choke? |
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I used to have my primer ..."T'd" in my fuel line....
Just thought that was a bad idea....So it has it's own pick up tube from the fuel tank now.....
Gotta Fly...
Mike & "Jaz" in MN
.
.
.
| blackbird wrote: | Ok,
The primer "t" goes after the squeeze bulb.......CPS says it must be mounted in the horizontal position.....New issue..
What about the primer in the cockpit...............any thoughts?
Wayne |
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