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Jason

Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Posts: 5

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:27 am Post subject: What does it mean?

Can anyone put it in plain English?  The FAA is proposing new fees and restrictions for aviation that would directly affect people that are thinking of building/flying their own LSA.  True/False? Probable?



I've read some about it on the EAA website, and then ran across this tidbit on the RANS aircraft page and am having a little trouble making sense of it and how it will actually apply on an everyday basis.



(from here)



 	  Quote: 	
		  

SPECIAL NOTICE ON REGISTERING AIRCRAFT  	 



ELSA ALERT: The FAA's Aircraft Registration office and the Light-Sport Aircraft Branch would like to remind all individuals converting aircraft into an Experimental Light-Sport Aircraft (ELSA) per FAR 21.191(i)(1)that there is a January 31, 2008 deadline to complete the ELSA aircraft registration, the ELSA airworthiness inspection, and the ELSA certification process.



The FAA will guarantee that your registration and certification packet will be reviewed and your ELSA aircraft inspected in sufficient time to meet the January 31, 2008 deadline if:

4.	By August 15, 2007, you submit your aircraft registration (N-number) request to the Aircraft Registration office; and

5. 	By October 1,2007, you call your local ELSA DAR to schedule your ELSA airworthiness inspection; and

6.      By November 30, 2007, you submit your aircraft airworthiness certification request packet to either a FAA Flight Standards District Office (FSDO), a FAA Manufacturing Inspection District office (MIDO), or your local ELSA DAR. Ask your local ELSA DAR which office should receive this packet.



If you fail to complete the above steps, the FAA cannot guarantee they'll be able to complete your ELSA registration and certification inspection process prior to the January 31, 2008 deadline.



If you need assistance in determining the exact requirements for converting your Ultralight into an ELSA, there are two industry sources available to answer any of your ELSA aircraft registration and/or certification packet requirement questions:

EAA (877-359-1232) and Rainbow Aviation (530-824-0644).



We also encourage you to contact your affiliated ultralight association:

EAA (877-359-1232); USUA (717-339-0200); ASC (269-781-4021), or USHPA(800-616- 6888) with any questions you may have regarding the ultralight to ELSA conversion process. The FAA Light-Sport Aircraft Branch (405-954-3668) is also available to answer your ELSA certification conversion questions and to help you locate the closest ELSA DAR qualified to inspect your aircraft.



DON'T DELAY ACT TODAY!!!

	




So obvioiusly I'm not going to be having anything inspected by those dates, what happens after those dates?



This seems like it will affect lots and lots of folks, I was hoping some of you will have already done some of the work in figuring it all out and be willing to share?



Any info/feedback greatly appreciated.



Jason

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:46 am Post subject: Re: What does it mean?

Higher taxes are bad. That said the current plan being pushed by the FAA will have little effect on the average LSA pilot. The only user fees being proposed are in Bravo airspace. The tax on AvGas will increase from 19.xx cents/Gal to  70 cents/gal so if you can run Mogas you won't be affected by that.



Here's a link for the FAA's take on the plan.



http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/reauthorization/media/Questions_Answers.pdf

I still think taxes are bad and that this plan is being pushed by the airlines to move some of the cost off of them and on to GA but it isn't as bad as it could have been. Also, there's a real good chance that it isn't going to make it through congress anyway.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

zodie(at)adelphia.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:58 am Post subject: What does it mean?

---

Jason

Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Posts: 5

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:10 am Post subject: Re: What does it mean?

Thank you for that link, I just got through reading it top to bottom.  Essentially, the only cost increase will be the extra 70 cents per gallon for those doing non-commercial flight.  On a zodiac XL, that means somewhere in the neighborhood of an extra $15 to $20 everytime you fill up.



I wonder how the FAA wouild deal with LSA's or airports that started selling/running on 93 octane gasoline (for those engines that can do both).  I don't anticipate doing that, just a thought.



Thank you for the feedback, excellent info.



Jason

Jon(at)joncroke.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:21 am Post subject: What does it mean?

Jason,



My understanding of this (and those of you who know the rules - please 

correct me on this) is that this year provides a UNIQUE opportunity, (a 

loophole of sorts!) possibly never occuring again, being granted by the FAA. 

Before year's end, you can take ANY unregistered aircraft that meets LSA 

parameters, doesnt matter who built it, doesnt matter how many owners, 

doesnt matter if it meets 51% rule... as long as it is airworthy for 

inspection -- and GET IT registered legally (as ELSA).  It took a friend to 

make me realize how unique this opportunity is -- all of those illegal 'fat 

ultralights' (for lack of a better word) can be brought into a legal status 

once and for all.  That is the purpose of this 'conversion' being offered, 

ending Dec 2008.



 	  Quote: 	
		  From a practical standpoint:  go onto barnstormers and find that old 

Challenger, Kolb, Zenith, Rans, ANYTHING that is in someone's garage 
	


completely built, half built, never built - dont care about tracking 

ownership stuff and all the rules for experimental that we are all familiar 

with. Buy that gem at  a great price, get it airworthy and fill out the ELSA 

paperwork. You have a legal aircraft at a great price that otherwise was 

going to rot in someone's garage... cause you KNOW they arent going to allow 

2 place 'fat ultralights' to fly anymore.  I feel sorry for the original 

owners of those that dont have pilot's licenses.. THEY are the ones getting 

hurt.  But YOU can own it now and fly legally.



That, I think, is the intent of this rule and why it has an ending date. 

Take advantage.. a GREAT way to get into the air - Zenith or not!  (I almost 

get the impression that building your own aircraft kit and registering it as 

ELSA was a sidebar to the real intent that I explained here)



Those that know this stuff better, please correct me! (I may be off base in 

my facts or analysis!)



In fact, if you are able "unregister" (legally of course) a registered plane 

that you are interested in.. now you have the basis for starting over and 

registering it as your own, ELSA!  (I've been hearing stories!)



Jon



---

p.mulwitz(at)worldnet.att
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:48 am Post subject: What does it mean?

Hi Jason,



All the stuff you quoted means that if you don't get your 

airworthiness certificate by January 31,2008 you will only be able to 

register your home built plane as Experimental - Amateur Built.  This 

is not a really big deal.  After that date E-LSA will only work for 

planes that are exact copies of "Certified" S-LSA models.



The new funding stuff the FAA is trying to put in place should not 

directly impact your flying privileges - only your wallet.  Among 

other things, they want to increase the federal tax on Avgas from 

$.20 to $0.70 per gallon (give or take).  They also want to implement 

user fees for use of FAA services like landing at busy airports and 

flight planning services.



I think it would be a good idea for all of us to write to our 

congressmen and senators to ask them to oppose this new funding 

plan.  There is still a chance this new plan will not be implemented in law.



Paul

XL fuselage

At 08:27 AM 2/27/2007, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Can anyone put it in plain English?  The FAA is proposing new fees 

and restrictions for aviation that would directly affect people that 

are thinking of building/flying their own LSA.  True/False? Probable?



I've read some about it on the EAA website, and then ran across this 

tidbit on the RANS aircraft page and am having a little trouble 

making sense of it and how it will actually apply on an everyday basis.



(from here (http://www.rans.com/ELSA%20Alert.htm))

 >

 > SPECIAL NOTICE ON REGISTERING AIRCRAFT

 >

 > ELSA ALERT: The FAA's Aircraft Registration office and the 

 Light-Sport Aircraft Branch would like to remind all individuals 

 converting aircraft into an Experimental Light-Sport Aircraft 

 (ELSA) per FAR 21.191(i)(1)that there is a January 31, 2008 

 deadline to complete the ELSA aircraft registration, the ELSA 

 airworthiness inspection, and the ELSA certification process.

 >

 > The FAA will guarantee that your registration and certification 

 packet will be reviewed and your ELSA aircraft inspected in 

 sufficient time to meet the January 31, 2008 deadline if:

 > 4.    By August 15, 2007, you submit your aircraft registration 

 (N-number) request to the Aircraft Registration office; and

 > 5.    By October 1,2007, you call your local ELSA DAR to schedule 

 your ELSA airworthiness inspection; and

 > 6.      By November 30, 2007, you submit your aircraft 

 airworthiness certification request packet to either a FAA Flight 

 Standards District Office (FSDO), a FAA Manufacturing Inspection 

 District office (MIDO), or your local ELSA DAR. Ask your local ELSA 

 DAR which office should receive this packet.

 >

 > If you fail to complete the above steps, the FAA cannot guarantee 

 they'll be able to complete your ELSA registration and 

 certification inspection process prior to the January 31, 2008 deadline.

 >

 > If you need assistance in determining the exact requirements for 

 converting your Ultralight into an ELSA, there are two industry 

 sources available to answer any of your ELSA aircraft registration 

 and/or certification packet requirement questions:

 > EAA (877-359-1232) and Rainbow Aviation (530-824-0644).

 >

 > We also encourage you to contact your affiliated ultralight association:

 > EAA (877-359-1232); USUA (717-339-0200); ASC (269-781-4021), or 

 USHPA(800-616- 6888) with any questions you may have regarding the 

 ultralight to ELSA conversion process. The FAA Light-Sport Aircraft 

 Branch (405-954-3668) is also available to answer your ELSA 

 certification conversion questions and to help you locate the 

 closest ELSA DAR qualified to inspect your aircraft.

 >

 > DON'T DELAY ACT TODAY!!!

 >

So obvioiusly I'm not going to be having anything inspected by those 

dates, what happens after those dates?



This seems like it will affect lots and lots of folks, I was hoping 

some of you will have already done some of the work in figuring it 

all out and be willing to share?



Any info/feedback greatly appreciated.



Jason




	


----

Jason

Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Posts: 5

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: What does it mean?

*smiles* I can't help it..I have to respond to this even if it is way over the top:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

The new funding stuff the FAA is trying to put in place should not

directly impact your flying privileges - only your wallet.

	




Money is the primary control attribute in any number of issues.  Taxation without represnentation was one of the things that set off the eventual creation of the USA after all.  Right now..how is Congress thinking of controlling our forces in Iraq?  By controlling money of course.



I know I know, it's way over the top; but the idea that it doesn't impact our privlegies just our wallet isn't quite right.



Anyways, just had to get that off my chest. 



Jason



\\I know I took that outside the lines of your intent, it just grabbed my attention.



**edits to fix bolding**...ok..so the bolding thing isn't fixed so easily.

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:26 pm Post subject: What does it mean?

there are additional costs,  if you land in any field,  there will ultimately be a landing fee.  Not just towered fields.   the new prpoosed deal is a phased in approach.  do you want to pay $3.80/gal plus $0.70 more per gallon, that is $25.00 more per fill up?  plus $30.00 on average every time you want to go for that $100.00 now $140.00 hamburger run?   Europe's system is an utter failure.  Our system is well funded the way it is, the only reason this is coming to the table is due to FAA's fundung coming up again, and the ATA's lobbiist doing a damned good job.  GA is less than 600,000 people now, and Trasnport is not doing well at all.  they cannot make money.  

Guess who is recommending the new proposed system, ATA.  Only $0.70?   add that to the cost to train in an area that the population is getting smaller.  

--

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: What does it mean?

As someone who has  been thru a few FAA related scares in the past, may I suggest the following.   The AOPA and to a slightly lesser extent the EAA have long been champions of general aviation and our freedom to fly.  They work tirelessly to protect our interests and have a good record of success.  I have belonged to both AOPA and EAA for over 30 years and responded when they put out the call to contact our legislators and others.  I for one do not plan to give in to the FAA's ill-planned attempt to bring in user fees without a fight. I urge all of you to support the AOPA and EAA and do the same.  There is power in numbers.



Tim Juhl

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

marinegunner(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:02 pm Post subject: What does it mean?

Gig,

User Fees and the FAA's current plan will make not make it through

congress if nobody, and I mean nobody, goes along with any of it. Yes,

the program will have a very bad affect on LSA and all of general

aviation. Worse, it will cause us to lose the freedom to fly anywhere,

at almost anytime. Why not have user fees for cars, just think $1.00

for every stop sign you stop at; $1.00 for every red light you use;

$5.00 for entering the interstate; then increase fuel taxes many times

- and don't forget, reduce everything for truckers because they are

commercial and the highways and roadways are for them, not the general

driving public. You need to rethink you support of the FAA - it is far

worse than you think. Are you an airline pilot?

-- 

Semper Fi,

Steven R. Hulland

CH 600 Taildragger

Amado, AZ



This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies

scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help

insure virus free email and attachments.

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: What does it mean?

Steven,



Please reread my post. I was hardly supportive of the FAA plan. What I said was it wasn't as bad as it could have been. It well could have had fees any service used. While the increase in the tax is a fairly hefty bump in many cases it can be completely avoided by burning Mogas.



Most of the airports where there will be a fee already have landing fees that push them out of the average LSA flight plan.



I will repeat though that TAXES ARE BAD and I really don't think this one will pass as is.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

amyvega2005(at)earthlink.
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:30 pm Post subject: What does it mean?

i agree that it may nbot pass as is, becuase the GAO has a report that says the FAA is a terrible revenue collector. this would make FAA a revenue collector.  and off /on peak?  this is not a high way, and it looks to privatise the air usage like a private Hwy.



--

marinegunner(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:38 pm Post subject: What does it mean?

Gig,

I realise that you are not really supportive of the FAA plan and that

it was not as bad as it could have been. And yes, the proposed tax

increase can be avoided by using Mogas - until most Mogas has ehonol!



Never-the-less, my point is and was that nobody should give them an

inch about any user fee, higher tax, etc. Doing so only restricts

freedom. No pilot should be a sheep being lead by the government wolf

- we must all be sheepdogs and keep the wolf at bay or reduce the wolf

population.



I was an air traffic controller for 20 years - rising from new

controller to facility chief and both busy and not so busy military

and joint use civil/military airports. I have been a pilot for more

than 40 years, flying in many foreign lands and the United States.



Without a doubt, every single other country in the world has a system

that cannot match ours for individual freedom and cost - including

Canada, Australia and the few other countries that have relatively

free sky's.The current FAA system is not even close to being broke or

out of money. It is the best in the world and the only reasons this or

any administration wants to change it are: Gain more power and control

over pilots. Ensure that airlines have the most say and that the

system caters to them before all others.



Granting fees for any use at any place paid by any group will only

lead to a complete system of user fees. Fight them all the time every

chance that you can and at every venue that you can. That is the only

way we will win.



Do Not Archive

-- 

Semper Fi,

Steven R. Hulland

CH 600 Taildragger

Amado, AZ



This and all other incoming/outgoing email, attachments and replies

scanned prior to opening/sending and uses an external firewall to help

insure virus free email and attachments.

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:06 am Post subject: Re: What does it mean?

Also don't forget,  a user fee is technically not a tax increase. This way the administration can claim that they aren't raising taxes......



Those of us who live near Canada have had a taste of user fees.   A friend flew his Arrow across southern Ontario (didn't land) to Buffalo and a few weeks later he received a bill in the mail from the corporation that now runs ATC in Canada.   He had of course filed a flight plan and had talked to London Approach on his way thru.  The Canadians looked up his N-number and sent him a bill.   It was something like $60-70 and it covers him if he were to fly in Canada again sometime in the following three months.  I feel sorry for our Canadian neighbors.  The one positive thing is that the Zenith's gross weight is low enough that I believe it is exempt from fees unless you try to land and one of a selected number of "big" airports.



Steven is correct..... the idiots in Washington want to "fix" what is already the best air traffic control system in the world.  The FAA can't account for where all the money it's spending is going now yet they tell us that the current system won't meet their increasing financial needs.  Fortunately, with the help of AOPA, EAA, NBAA etc., the congress is getting an earfull and so far seem skeptical.   Just keep those cards and letters coming!



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: What does it mean?

Does this mean you can't register as LSA after a certain date too? What the hell was the point of LSA in the first place then?



As far as the other points, if registered before 2008, no fuel surcharge and no landing surcharge? After that you have to pay for all this crap? I can't imagine them at EAA or AOPA letting this type of she-it actually pass. Insane.



Do you think small airports with class D or E airspace would actually put charge. Unlikely, or they'd out of business in no time. I hate government. Seriously. Anyone that that doesn't think we live in Communist Light is off their rocker. I'd love to see the whole thing collapse and all of these politicians out on their asses.



Got gold?

ashontz

Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 723

Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:11 am Post subject: Re: What does it mean?

 	  Gig Giacona wrote: 	
		  Higher taxes are bad. That said the current plan being pushed by the FAA will have little effect on the average LSA pilot. The only user fees being proposed are in Bravo airspace. The tax on AvGas will increase from 19.xx cents/Gal to  70 cents/gal so if you can run Mogas you won't be affected by that.



Here's a link for the FAA's take on the plan.



http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/reauthorization/media/Questions_Answers.pdf

I still think taxes are bad and that this plan is being pushed by the airlines to move some of the cost off of them and on to GA but it isn't as bad as it could have been. Also, there's a real good chance that it isn't going to make it through congress anyway. 	




Reading the link, it actally doesn't sound much different than what they already have in place. Currently we're all already paying for ATC service through fuel. They failed to mention that. That's why 100LL is more expensive than regualr gasoline, there's a huge tax on it already. I remember hearing that years ago. They just want more money.



As far as user fees, if I went and landed at PHL international today, I'd get sent a landing fee bill. They may be proposing to extend this to airports with Class C airspace, something like that. That being the case, they can keep Atlantic City International. Who the hell would want to land a small plane in all that crap anyway.



The real BS is the fuel surcharge. They actually already have a fuel surcharge.



Be nice if the EAA set up a program to help establish more Mo-Gas stations at small airports. That would pretty much take care of this new non-problem for people that traditionally don't want to have much to do with bloated government in the first place. Speaking of that, has anyone seen the US Constituion, we left it aroudn here someplace. Last I saw it Woodrow Wilson was messing with it installing an illegal Federal Reserve, then FDR was messing with it creating a welfare state and conficating real money, then Ike was establishing the precedent of illegal wars, then LBJ was setting the precedent for how to bankrupt a country, then Nixon was messing with it creating a pure fiat currency, then Reagan was using to...

pacificpainting(at)comcas
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:55 am Post subject: What does it mean?

ALL THIS TIME, I THOUGHT THE CONSTITUTION WAS A BOAT.

DO NOT ARCHIVE





---

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:35 am Post subject: What does it mean?

The federal excise tax on aviation gasoline is currently $0.193 per  

gallon and on auto gas it is $0.184 per gallon. Avgas isn't more  

expensive because of the tax, it's more expensive because it's  

produced by a different method than auto gas and to a different  

specification and the market for avgas is so much smaller than for  

auto gas. At this time, the federal government does not charge any  

landing fees, the landing fees that already exist are imposed either  

by the airport authority itself or by the individual states.

The major difference between the current system of funding aviation  

and the proposed system is that the proposed system will require a  

large bureaucracy to keep track of who's using what services and who  

to send the bills to. This bureaucracy will add significant cost to  

the whole system and will result in higher costs for all users of  

aviation. The current system of funding consists entirely of point of  

sale collection of taxes and airline passenger surcharges. There is  

no need for a large bureaucracy to collect the money so it is much  

less costly.

It seems the main point of the proposed funding scheme is to shift  

the cost of the aviation system from the airlines (the primary users  

of the system) to general aviation by eliminating the current airline  

passenger surcharges and increasing the fuel tax on other users by  

240%. What the government is proposing is basically increasing the  

number of people sucking money out of the taxpayers pockets. If the  

government manages to get user fees established for class B airspace  

and large airports and commercial operators, they will eventually  

expand it to other classes of airspace and smaller airports and  

private pilots. Then they will eventually make it mandatory for every  

pilot to file flight plans and pay user fees for every aspect of  

aviation. Government is like a fungus, if you don't constantly work  

to keep it contained it will just keep growing and sucking up more  

and more resources until it chokes the life out of those who it feeds  

off of.

On Mar 3, 2007, at 8:11 AM, ashontz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Reading the link, it actally doesn't sound much different than what  

 they already have in place. Currently we're all already paying for  

 ATC service through fuel. They failed to mention that. That's why  

 100LL is more expensive than regualr gasoline, there's a huge tax  

 on it already. I remember hearing that years ago. They just want  

 more money.

 As far as user fees, if I went and landed at PHL international  

 today, I'd get sent a landing fee bill. They may be proposing to  

 extend this to airports with Class C airspace, something like that.  

 That being the case, they can keep Atlantic City International. Who  

 the hell would want to land a small plane in all that crap anyway.

 The real BS is the fuel surcharge. They actually already have a  

 fuel surcharge.

 --------

 CH601XL - Corvair

 www.mykitlog.com/ashontz

 Gig Giacona wrote:

> Higher taxes are bad. That said the current plan being pushed by  

> the FAA will have little effect on the average LSA pilot. The only  

> user fees being proposed are in Bravo airspace. The tax on AvGas  

> will increase from 19.xx cents/Gal to  70 cents/gal so if you can  

> run Mogas you won't be affected by that.

>

> Here's a link for the FAA's take on the plan.

>

> http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/reauthorization/media/ 

> Questions_Answers.pdf

> I still think taxes are bad and that this plan is being pushed by  

> the airlines to move some of the cost off of them and on to GA but  

> it isn't as bad as it could have been. Also, there's a real good  

> chance that it isn't going to make it through congress anyway.

-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 7:38 am Post subject: What does it mean?

It's a SHIP not a BOAT, shame on you. 



On Mar 3, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Dave Ruddiman wrote:



[quote] 

 <pacificpainting(at)comcast.net>



 ALL THIS TIME, I THOUGHT THE CONSTITUTION WAS A BOAT.



 ---

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

naumuk(at)alltel.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 8:59 am Post subject: What does it mean?

All-

    For those of you not familiar with the cliche, a boat is a hole in the 

water you throw money into.

    Oops! That's not the Constitution, that's the federal budget!

Bill Naumuk

HDS Fuselage

Townville, Pa

---

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