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nose cones

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Paul Petty

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 226
Location: Mississippi

Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:22 pm Post subject: nose cones

Hey gang lets talk nose cones. I am not real happy with mine as well as others. I know the fine folks at TNK do their best with these and for the most part they are holding up but mine is like paper thin. It will crack if you look at it funny. Wonder if Uncle Craig would consider making us some carbon fiber nose cones with perhaps some special reinforcements where we might like to mount say an antenna or something elese?

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_________________
Paul Petty
Kolbra #12
Ms Dixie
912 UL 70" warp

MKIIIX040

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 123
Location: Millinocket, Maine

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:01 am Post subject: nose cones

"Hey gang lets talk nose cones"

  

 Hey Paul,

  Your right on  the nose. I had to cut my  original nose from front to back on the bottom and open it up 1/2 " then reglass  it just to get it to fit over the cage. That still didn't do the trick and  nothing would. I asked TNK for a replacement and got it lickety  split no problem.

 I haven't had a chance to check the fit yet but you are  right it is much lighter which can be a good thing. It appears to be more  symetrical also.

 It's not hard at all to slap a little glass mat and epoxy  inside where you might want it - at the expense of extra weight.

  Again your right about Uncle Craig. I'd like to see  him make noses for Kolb.

  

 What I'd like to know is how to attach a skid under them  to insure us complete beginers against an expensive and time consuming repair  from even the slightest nose dinging.

  

 Maybe a vertical partition inside front to back. Maybe  Uncle C. would know how to do that and if it would work.

  

 By the way your prop spacer is perfect! I decided not to  use one since I have flaperons instead of normal flaps and 5" of clearance all  around. I hope it doesn't mean a lot of extra noise.

  

 Vic

 912 Maine

 Finish Tapiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing

   [quote][b]

_________________
MKIIIX040
912UL

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:02 am Post subject: nose cones

Paul, Nice looking nose cone. Why not just get a yard of BID (bidirectional weave fiberglass) a quart kit of an epoxy you like (EZ Poxy, AeroPoxy and MGS are all good), and put reinforcements where you want them? Just prep the area by sanding, wet out your reinforcement, put it in place and squeegee down a piece of peel ply so the edges don't curl. You can also encapsulate any metal of phenolic plates so you have a solid area to attach things. Look on the LongEZ and Cozy builder's sites and you'll find all sorts of clever ways to do what you want. 

The problem with carbon fiber is that it's very pricey, is extremely fragile if only used to its design specs, and takes an autoclave bake to really get those properties of light weight and strength. For the homebuilder, there's no advantage of carbonfiber over "S" glass. 



Rick



On 3/7/07, Paul Petty <paulpetty(at)myway.com (paulpetty(at)myway.com)> wrote: 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <paulpetty(at)myway.com (paulpetty(at)myway.com)>



Hey gang lets talk nose cones. I am not real happy with mine as well as others. I know the fine folks at TNK do their best with these and for the most part they are holding up but mine is like paper thin. It will crack if you look at it funny. Wonder if Uncle Craig would consider making us some carbon fiber nose cones with perhaps some special reinforcements where we might like to mount say an antenna or something elese? 



--------

Paul Petty

Kolbra #12

Ms Dixie

painting and reassembly





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=99362#99362 



	


-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.  [quote][b]

mattreeves(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:45 am Post subject: nose cones

Lancair builder and all around good guy here - and here's my 2 cents...

   

  Rick is right.  Carbon fiber is strong as hell and very very pricey AND there are some disadvantages to it as well - believe it or not.  E or S glass, especially the lighter weights, are the easiest to work with.  Carbon fiber frays and it needs constant pressure during the cure due to the stiffness, it WILL bow, even saturated with resin, mostly on the outside of an L shape.  On the inside of an L shape it is much better.

   

  For the application you are discussing, simple E-glass or S-glass is the way to go.  Don't cake on too much resin because it does compromise strength and weight to add un-necessary resin.

   

  I clean, sand 40-80 grit, clean, and clean (acetone or MEK) the surface first, paint a thin layer of resin where I want the glass.   On a table, I put a layer  of plastic, then E-glass - 1 or 2 layers and a layer of peel ply on top (but this is not always necessary - just DON'T forget to put it on the TOP, not the bottom or you will have NO bond) - and then another layer of plastic.  Use a long screw from Home depot with just the threads, no nuts, use just enough pressure to remove excess resin and air bubbles like a baby rolling pin- if the cloth turns white, you took out too much resin.  The groves in the screw will allow just enough resin to remain.

   

  Then, mark the top of the plastic sandwich with a sharpie and a ruler - say a 2 inch strip or whatever you want.  Cut both sides of the sandwhich.  Carefully remove JUST the bottom layer of plastic (NOT the peel ply side).  The remaining sandwhich will retain the shape of your cut.  Lay down the bare saturated glass side to the part you painted.  Gently push out any air bubbles and remove the TOP layer of plastic  which is directly over the peel ply layer which you are going to leave.   Get it as perfect as you want and remove drips with a rag of acetone but don't mess up your edges.   You can even use a small strip of duct tape over the edges to keep them down while curing.  When cured, remove the peel ply and you'll have one hell of a nice looking strong as hell layup without too much resin.

   

  Lancair did a bunch of testing a few years back before they would only talk to millionaires - and found out that too much resin was NOT as strong as this procedure.  I see lots of people paint resin and put in dry glass, paint more resin, more dry glass, paint more resin, and more dry glass until it's all saturated way too much and resin is running out all over hell and creation.  PLUS when you finish that way, not only is the strength compromised, it looks like a crap and is such a sloppy lay up.

    

  Anyway, that's my 2 cents but do whatever you want - after all - it is EXPERIMENTAL meaning you can do JUST THAT!!!

   

  Have a great day and good luck!

   

  Matt Reeves

  Rochester, NY

   

  



Richard Girard <jindoguy(at)gmail.com> wrote:

  [quote]Paul, Nice looking nose cone. Why not just get a yard of BID (bidirectional weave fiberglass) a quart kit of an epoxy you like (EZ Poxy, AeroPoxy and MGS are all good), and put reinforcements where you want them? Just prep the area by sanding, wet out your reinforcement, put it in place and squeegee down a piece of peel ply so the edges don't curl. You can also encapsulate any metal of phenolic plates so you have a solid area to attach things. Look on the LongEZ and Cozy builder's sites and you'll  find all sorts of clever ways to do what you want. 

The problem with carbon fiber is that it's very pricey, is extremely fragile if only used to its design specs, and takes an autoclave bake to really get those properties of light weight and strength. For the homebuilder, there's no advantage of carbonfiber over "S" glass. 



Rick



  On 3/7/07, Paul Petty <paulpetty(at)myway.com (paulpetty(at)myway.com)> wrote:  [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Paul Petty" <paulpetty(at)myway.com (paulpetty(at)myway.com)>



Hey gang lets talk nose cones. I am not real happy with mine as well as others. I know the fine folks at TNK do their best with these and for the most part they are holding up but mine is like paper thin. It will crack if  Don't pick lemons.

 See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. [quote][b]

Rex Rodebush

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 209
Location: Branson West area, Missouri

Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 7:38 am Post subject: Re: nose cones

I had to do some minor cutting and rewelding on my front frame to get a good fit with the nose cone.  I think the problem was on the lower right and left corners of the cage.



I'm also building a support structure out from the front cage inside the cone to attach a combination skid, pull handle and tie down fitting.  I should have it done in a few weeks and will send some pictures if it turns out O.K.  The fitting will attach thru two holes on the bottom of the cone.



Rex Rodebush (early model X-tra)

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:07 am Post subject: nose cones

I have been thinking about that nose over thing since it was first          mentioned here several years ago. I have to admit till then I didn't          even think of that possibility. But as most of us builders/ designers/          EAA folks are, we try come up with simple solutions. My solution and I          invite commentary on it, not that it likely to change my mind but it          may,, that the easiest way is to tilt the main gear about an inch          forward increasing the moment arm to where the gear would rather drag          than pivot into the muck. Anyone tried that approach, or conversely          how endemic is the nose tipping over potential?              

         Ron (Arizona)              

                       

         ===============================              

         

         ---- Vic Peters <vicsvinyl(at)verizon.net> wrote:



=============

"Hey          gang lets talk nose cones"



Hey Paul,

Your right on the          nose. I had to cut my original nose from front to back on the bottom          and open it up 1/2 " then reglass it just to get it to fit over the          cage. That still didn't do the trick and nothing would. I asked TNK          for a replacement and got it lickety split no problem.

I haven't          had a chance to check the fit yet but you are right it is much lighter          which can be a good thing. It appears to be more symetrical also.

It's          not hard at all to slap a little glass mat and epoxy inside where you          might want it - at the expense of extra weight.

Again your right          about Uncle Craig. I'd like to see him make noses for Kolb.



What          I'd like to know is how to attach a skid under them to insure us          complete beginers against an expensive and time consuming repair from          even the slightest nose dinging.



Maybe a vertical partition          inside front to back. Maybe Uncle C. would know how to do that and if          it would work.



By the way your prop spacer is perfect! I          decided not to use one since I have flaperons instead of normal flaps          and 5" of clearance all around. I hope it doesn't mean a lot of extra          noise.



Vic

912 Maine

Finish Tapiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing            

      [quote][b]

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:44 am Post subject: Re: nose cones

Hey Ron,

              I asked about that before....The reason that "I" got was the landing gear where it sits...reduces Ground Looping....



 Putting it's "Moment" forward will reduce "nose over" but Homer thought it

was better this way...



  I think John H explained it to me....



                                Gotta Fly...

                                                Mike & "Jaz" in MN





 	  captainron1(at)cox.net wrote: 	
		  I have been thinking about that nose over thing since it was first          mentioned here several years ago. I have to admit till then I didn't          even think of that possibility. But as most of us builders/ designers/          EAA folks are, we try come up with simple solutions. My solution and I          invite commentary on it, not that it likely to change my mind but it          may,, that the easiest way is to tilt the main gear about an inch          forward increasing the moment arm to where the gear would rather drag          than pivot into the muck. Anyone tried that approach, or conversely          how endemic is the nose tipping over potential?              

         Ron (Arizona)

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 5:21 pm Post subject: nose cones

[quote]    Anyone tried that approach, or conversely    how endemic is the nose tipping over potential? 

      

Ron (Arizona)    

    I think you are getting excited    over nothing. I have nosed over twice, both times very preventible. The last    time was a down wind landing, ( about 12 mph) what got me in trouble was    buried sprinkler lines in a hay field. They were humped up about 8 inches. I    landed with the wind, hit one of the humps that kicked me in the air, tried to    hold the nose down and got over center. Like I say it took some effort on my    part to tip it up. If your wheel drops into a hole and it doesn't want to come    out easily, if you give it enough gas it will tip over. Other than that, just    hold the stick back when you taxi and you shouldn't have a problem. I taxi my    firestar into the hanger over a two or three inch lip with no real problem.    (yet)   

Larry, Oregon   

do not  archive

[b]

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:42 pm Post subject: nose cones

Mmm its interesting how a solution to one problem can instantly create another. 

Good point though, if I shift the center of gravity further back while its on the ground I certainly create instability latitude wise. I guess the question is which one of them I am willing to except more of. I think some of the older time pilots in the Kolb M3 like John will have the experience to answer that.

Ron (Arizona)



---- planecrazzzy <planecrazzzy(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



=============




Hey Ron,

I asked about that before....The reason that "I" got was the landing gear where it sits...reduces Ground Looping....



Putting it's "Moment" forward will reduce "nose over" but Homer thought it

was better this way...



I think John H explained it to me....



Gotta Fly...

Mike & "Jaz" in MN



captainron1(at)cox.net wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I have been thinking about that nose over thing since it was first mentioned here several years ago. I have to admit till then I didn't even think of that possibility. But as most of us builders/ designers/ EAA folks are, we try come up with simple solutions. My solution and I invite commentary on it, not that it likely to change my mind but it may,, that the easiest way is to tilt the main gear about an inch forward increasing the moment arm to where the gear would rather drag than pivot into the muck. Anyone tried that approach, or conversely how endemic is the nose tipping over potential?

 Ron (Arizona)


	




--------

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: nose cones

The further foward the main gear, the much greater tendency there is to ground loop, and it also puts a lot more stress on the tailwheel.



I would rather have a nose over than a ground loop anyday   



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:08 pm Post subject: nose cones

| I would rather have a nose over than a ground loop anyday  

|

| Mike

Mike B:



Not me!



I've done nose plowing with Firestar and MKIII.  I can assure you that 

ground looping a mkIII with 6' track is really another maneuver to 

keep me out of trouble when I get into a situation where I can not 

stop before I implant myself on whatever is in front of me.  The 

ability to ground loop has saved my airplane several times over the 

years.



There have been several times I have ground looped when I had no 

intention of doing so, too.  During a flight to OSH I landed at my 

usual refuel airport, Joliet, IL.  Took off from Joliet and next 

landing was on dry grass on the UL/Lt Plane airstrip OSH.  Landing to 

the north with a 15 to 25 mph 90 degree cross wind from the west. 

Soon as I touched down, with full right brake, wheel locked and 

skidding, the tail went right any how, and I did a 180 degree ground 

loop in front of God and all the fence hangers at the UL strip.  Wings 

stayed level, as usual.  When I stopped ground looping, I throttle up 

and taxied over to the fence, got out, stretched, and went on about my 

business.  No one, even Frank Beagle in the tower, ever asked me or 

kidded me about my ground loop landing at OSH.   What happened was the 

lose of the right rudder/tail wheel spring, giving me full left 

tailwheel and no way to turn it right.



Mike, I have no problem taxiing through sand, mud, tall weeds, rough 

terrain because I do have the main gear about 8" forward and over 100 

lbs on the tail wheel.  I never have a nose over tendancy.  I can 

relax and taxi my airplane with comfort.  Yes, it is more difficult to 

land, and at times, take off because it is a "real" taildragger, but 

does not take long to learn to live with this and be able to fly good 

enough not to kill ones self.  It does take good differential brakes, 

at times, because you can get ahead of the rudder, and never catch up 

until you are facing the opposite direction.



But................don't have to worry about flying around with a 

training skid under my nose and my tail sticking up in the air. 

However, I do have a bit of time in a lot of standard Kolb aircraft, 

and haven't put one on its nose in a long time.  Last year at the Kolb 

Flyin at Labhart Field was a good example of what one can do with a 

standard Kolb in some pretty tough wind conditions and not get the 

airplane on its nose.  I was flying a FS II.  Did not have as much 

luck staying dry though.  The field was wet, I was making a short 

landing at the east departure end of the strip, though I was going to 

go over the precipice because the wheels were locked and I was not 

slowing up the way I wanted to.  I put the FS in a left ground loop 

and thoroughly soaked me and the airplane.  But........did not go over 

the end of the strip.  



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

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