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AD's question for airworthy cert

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pilotpat

Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Posts: 14
Location: Williamsport, PA

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:35 pm Post subject: AD's question for airworthy cert

AD's Question - I am trying to get my kitfox airworthy certificate as a ELSA and the Faa says I forgot to put in the box the latest Note AD bi - weekly in publication at the time I signed the form (8130-6) Does anyone know what this number or current publication would be?  This is a kitfox classic iv and never flew yet and I purchased it mostly built.  it has the jabiru 2200A engine ....any help or link to these would be helpful.



do not archive

_________________
Pilotpat
Kitfox Classic IV
Jabiru 2200
Williamsport , PA

eskflyer(at)lvcisp.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:07 pm Post subject: AD's question for airworthy cert

You will not have any AD's pertaining to your aircraft if i understand it 

correctly . these only apply to Certified aircraft . You will however find 

service bulletins posted by the manufacturer or kit provider .



John Perry

Kitfox 2 N718PD

kirkhull(at)kc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:58 pm Post subject: AD's question for airworthy cert

When the FAA ask,  you built most of the airplane and way over 51%  and

there are no AD's on experimental aircraft.  I looked at the Faa form on the

web (FAA.GOV) and it has changed  sence the last time I filled one out.  I

would suggest that you lic your plane as an Experimental/armature built.

You will still be able to fly it as a sport pilot but the plane will not be

limited to only what a sport plane can do.  This way the pilot will be the

limiting factor and not the plane.  There may come a time when your planes

needs to be able to do those things ( night flight).



--

84KF
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: AD's question for airworthy cert

Oh boy...

I'm  going to watch this thread..... and see what we have learned about E-LSA and S-LSA. 



Start with part 21.190

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=7edb1f7bc20103cd2545d07e076bd1e1&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:1.0.1.3.9.8.11.13&idno=14



  The first question I would have is ..." was, or is, the kit or plans approved for E-LSA and if so was it built to the EXACT specifications of that kits (now) FAA approved assembly instructions.?



"I would suggest that you lic your plane as an Experimental/armature built.

You will still be able to fly it as a sport pilot but the plane will not be

limited to only what a sport plane can do. This way the pilot will be the

limiting factor and not the plane. "



I like this thinking...but many do not.

Steve

http://84kf.blogspot.com/

BTW....here is the Bi-weekly supplement list. Bi-weekly's are the ad's that will be included in the next 2 week main list cuz they are just now being  issued during the 14 days after the previous main list.

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet

I'll be back.....

dcsfoto

Joined: 24 Aug 2006
Posts: 120

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: AD's question for airworthy cert

First the AD Biweekly changes every two weeks. Yes ADs do not apply to our type aircraft but the FAA wants that block filled in on the Form 8130-6.

will look like "2007-06"

S-SLA must be built from a kit, that the mfg has built and certified at least one aircraft.

E-LSA is called the "wild west" it is what the "fat" ultralights that are not 51%

built are using.

S-SLA have 2" LIGHT SPORT placards.

E-LSA has 2" EXPERIMENTAL placards that is the easy way to tell diferance.

Go E-LSA if you  did not build the and want to get a repairmans certificate

all you need to do is go to a short ( 2 or 3 weeks ) school and get a 

E-LSA repairmans cert.

pilotpat

Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Posts: 14
Location: Williamsport, PA

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: AD's question for airworthy cert

Again, can't say it enought, What a great site this is and thanks to you guys for your input.  That is exactly what I needed, so I could fill in the block.  It was more my misunderstanding than anything else , as I just thought I didnt need to enter that info,  but the DAR explained to me what it was and along with you guys giving me the site location, I was able to find it and go thru things.   Learning lots, mostly from my mistakes and you all bailing me out...Was use to just flying the cherokee and Cessna till my friend got me into this kitfox flying..  so here I am,  probably will have a new quest for you soon.  as I need to write a flight plan.  any ideas....later

_________________
Pilotpat
Kitfox Classic IV
Jabiru 2200
Williamsport , PA

Clem Nichols

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 88
Location: Munfordville, Ky

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:53 pm Post subject: AD's question for airworthy cert

Re: ELSA repairman's certificate



All you need to get the repairman's certificate (which enables you to do the 

annual inspection on your own ELSA plane) is to successfully complete the 16 

hour course.  The 2 or 3 week course enables you to inspect and work on your 

SLSA plane.  As I understand it, anyone, certificate or not, can work on any 

experimental plane.



Clem Nichols

---

84KF
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: AD's question for airworthy cert

E-mail users..this post is best viewed through:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=8&sid=83b6acbe5602af72d6c023eab4688518



The following is from ..., well you should know by know...



44794 Federal Register / Vol. 69, No. 143 / Tuesday, July 27, 2004 / Rules and Regulations



“The FAA believes

that the maximum take-off weight is an

appropriate limiting parameter for lightsport

aircraft, because it is an objective

measure that can easily be determined

when the aircraft configuration is

specified.”

----------------



44808 Federal Register / Vol. 69, No. 143 / Tuesday, July 27, 2004 / Rules and Regulations



Operating limitations

specified in § 91.319 for experimental

light-sport aircraft certificated under

§ 21.191(i)(3) are more restrictive than

the operating limitations issued to

special light-sport aircraft.

-----------------



44808 Federal Register / Vol. 69, No. 143 / Tuesday, July 27, 2004 / Rules and Regulations



In ‘‘experimental certificate,’’ the word

‘‘experimental’’ indicates that there is

no known standard for the design or

production of the aircraft. Therefore, the

FAA believes that experimental

certificates are appropriate for kit-built

aircraft.



44808 Federal Register / Vol. 69, No. 143 / Tuesday, July 27, 2004 / Rules and Regulations

Proposed paragraph (i)(2) addressed

operating a light-sport aircraft that was

assembled from an eligible kit. Proposed

§ 21.0193(e)(5) stated that the assembler

of an aircraft, seeking certification under

paragraph (i)(2), had to provide the

instructions used to assemble the

aircraft. There was no requirement in

§ 21.191(i)(2) that a person had to

assemble the aircraft in accordance with

the manufacturer’s assembly

instructions. In the final rule, therefore,

§ 21.191(i)(2) now includes the

requirement that the aircraft kit be

assembled in accordance with the

manufacturer’s assembly instructions

that meet an applicable consensus

standard.

A commenter stated that experimental

certificates should not be issued for

light-sport aircraft that are not intended

for experimental use but are intended to

be mass-produced on production line.

The commenter said that the FAA

should create another status for aircraft

whose certification falls between

current type-certificated aircraft and

true experimental aircraft. The FAA

believes that the special light-sport

aircraft certificate serves this purpose.

In ‘‘experimental certificate,’’ the word

‘‘experimental’’ indicates that there is

no known standard for the design or

production of the aircraft. Therefore, the

FAA believes that experimental

certificates are appropriate for kit-built

aircraft.

The same commenter noted that

proposed § 21.191(i) would allow

certification of aircraft carrying persons

for compensation or hire that have never

been shown to meet any design or

production airworthiness standard. The

FAA notes that these aircraft will not be

permitted to be used for the full range

of compensation or hire operations

normally carried out by aircraft with

standard airworthiness certificates.

Operating limitations for these aircraft

will restrict their use, as specified in

§ 91.319. The commenter also stated

that there is no rigid conformity

requirement for kit-built aircraft

certificated under this section. The FAA

disagrees and notes that an applicant

seeking to certificate a kit-built aircraft

under § 21.191(i)(2) must also comply

with § 21.193(e) and provide a statement

of compliance issued by the aircraft’s

manufacturer that contains the

information generally required by

§ 21.190(c). The commenter was also

concerned that an operator of a special

light-sport aircraft could decide to

obtain an experimental light sport

certificate when that operator no longer

intends to comply with the more

stringent operating limitations of the

special light-sport aircraft. The

commenter asserts that the operator

could still engage in many of the

operations permitted for special lightsport

aircraft without meeting those

more stringent limitations. The FAA

disagrees. Operating limitations

specified in § 91.319 for experimental

light-sport aircraft certificated under

§ 21.191(i)(3) are more restrictive than

the operating limitations issued



steve

kitfox69(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:44 am Post subject: AD's question for airworthy cert

Clem,



 Just for varification, only the builder with a repairmans certificate

issued for his plane can work on it and he cannot work on

any other airplanes. A certified FAA A&E is the only other person who is

authorized to work on experimental or certified aircraft.  Floyd

 	  Quote: 	
		   [Original Message]

 From: Clem Nichols <cnichols(at)scrtc.com>

 To: <kitfox-list(at)matronics.com>

 Date: 3/16/2007 9:57:17 PM

 Subject: Re: Re: AD's question for airworthy cert



 



 Re: ELSA repairman's certificate



 All you need to get the repairman's certificate (which enables you to do

the 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   annual inspection on your own ELSA plane) is to successfully complete the

16 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   hour course.  The 2 or 3 week course enables you to inspect and work on

your 
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   SLSA plane.  As I understand it, anyone, certificate or not, can work on

any 
	


[quote] experimental plane.



 Clem Nichols

 ---

84KF
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:05 am Post subject: Re: AD's question for airworthy cert

"A certified FAA A&E is the only other person who is

authorized to work on experimental or certified aircraft"



Anybody else want to address this?

Clem Nichols

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 88
Location: Munfordville, Ky

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:06 am Post subject: AD's question for airworthy cert

Floyd:



I don't know if it applies to all experimental airplanes or just to 

experimental light sport aircraft, but I was taught in the 16 hour LS1 

repairman course I attended that an ELSA "can be maintained by anybody". 

The annual condition inspection must be done by an A&P or the owner as a 

light-sport repairman with an "inspection" rating.  I can work on and do the 

annual inspection on my own ELSA, but not on someone elses.  Nor can I do 

the initial inspection in order to obtain an airworthiness certificate.  I 

don't have the time right now to try and look it up in the fed regs, but 

will try later this weekend.



Clem



---

akflyer
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:04 am Post subject: Re: AD's question for airworthy cert

[quote="kitfox69(at)earthlink.net"]Clem,



 Just for varification, only the builder with a repairmans certificate

issued for his plane can work on it and he cannot work on

any other airplanes. A certified FAA A&E is the only other person who is

authorized to work on experimental or certified aircraft.  Floyd



Not quite right...Anyone including your 5 year old kid could work on an expiremental plane.. However, only the person holding the repairmans certificate (original builder) or any A&P can sign off on the condition inspection.

84KF
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:34 am Post subject: Re: AD's question for airworthy cert

Gentlemen, 

     Answers to who may perform maintenance and required inspections  involving ELSA, SLSA, and Amateur-built is found on page 44779 of the Final Rule. Get it from AOPA website. I would post it here, but don't want to ruffle feathers. 



Maintenance....Preventive Maintenance ... 2 different terms.



To find the items included under 'preventive maintenance' go to FAR 43, appendix A.



For more 'preventive maintenance'  info on SLSA, go to FAR 43.3g, 

The 'new guy' (ya, right.)

84KF
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:41 am Post subject: Re: AD's question for airworthy cert

BTW....."Anyone including your 5 year old kid could work on an expiremental plane.. However, only the person holding the repairmans certificate (original builder) or any A&P can sign off on the condition inspection."



100%correct



and...FAA AD's can, and will apply to SLSA.



Steve

http://84kf.blogspot.com/

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