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Daniel.Snow(at)wancdf.com Guest
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:33 am Post subject: Painting Questions and Advice |
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First, a confession and apology; I haven't read any of the books or
watched any of the videos on painting, so my questions and observations
may be obvious to those that have.
I'm using PPG's Concept and a Devilbiss FinishLine HVLP conversion gun.
Quote: | From the start orange peel has been a problem. I kept increasing the
pressure, increasing paint volume, and slowing my sweeping motion.
|
Although orange peel was decreasing, I was using an enormous amount of
paint. When I got to the wings, I decided to switch back to a
conventional gun, NAPA's gravity feed. Results were much better. After
talking with a painter friend, I have a couple suspicions;
1) The fast (low temperature) reducer is too fast
2) The amount of reducer is too little
3) The air pressure at the cap is too low
I've been following PPG's recommended temperature range and recipe', but
the friend suggested using a slower (medium temperature) reducer and
doubling the amount of reducer. He also suggested increasing the
pressure, but I've already maxed out the pressure both at the compressor
and at the gun's regulator.
Question #1: For anyone that's used Concept paint, what is your opinion
about using more reducer and a slower reducer?
Question #2: Do you spray rivet lines first to help fill around the
rivet head?
Now to share some of my experiences:
Two 20" box fans force air into the booth, with "sticky" filters on the
inlet side of the fans. These filters are available individually at
paint stores.
I started with pleated air filters at the booth exit, but they have too
much resistance to airflow. I'm switching to the fiber type.
The personnel entrance should be close to the inlet fans so that it's
not a primary means of escape for paint fog.
After a couple paint sessions, paint dust collects on the paint booth
walls and floor. Lightly rinse the walls with a water hose and lay new
paper drop cloth on the floor. The water will also raise the humidity
and cause the paint to cure a little more slowly, which aids in it
"flowing out".
Wear a Tyvek paint suit with hood to minimize lint/dust contamination
from your clothes.
Handling all the solvents will dry out your hands very quickly (I know,
I should be using gloves, but it hassssssssssnnnnnnnn'ttttttt affected
me yet, hasn't affected me yet, hasn't affected me yet), and you'll be
using hand lotion. That hand lotion has a sneaky way of finding its way
onto parts to be painted. I suggest washing your hands with soap before
working with parts to be painted. A friend also found that RTV is
persistent.
Alumiprep has a tendency to collect on the bottom of treated parts and
drying there. You have to rinse the bottom of parts frequently until
they're ready to dry.
Even after Alumiprep, parts should be cleaned with a cleaning wipe,
dried with a clean cloth, and wiped with a tack cloth.
HVLP may be better suited to professionals.
Most big parts can be suspended from wires or sawhorses in a manner that
allows you to paint with each side in a horizontal position. This
reduces the chances of runs and sags. For example, I placed 3' sections
of 4" PVC pipe through each end of the wings and rested the pipes on
sawhorses. This allows the wings to rotate around pipes. Another piece
of 2" PVC placed in one end helps secure the wing in a horizontal
position. Paint one side, flip the wing over, paint the other side.
I've ready the recommendation to practice painting on paper. I don't
know if this would work, but the slippery side of "coated" making paper
might make a better test piece since it won't absorb the paint.
The first "tack" coat of paint should be shot from about 12", and
applied quickly to provide about 50% coverage. Wait 10 minutes, shoot
the rivet lines and edges lightly, then shoot the final coat at 6"-8"
and a little more slowly and more heavily. Make sure to overlap up to
50%.
Pinholes - I know a lot has been written already, but I thought I could
be successful with less work. WRONG! Sand the parts until there are no
shiny spots left. Using a Bondo-type squeegee, work SuperFil back and
forth quickly, like using a paint brush, then scrape the squeegee
backwards to remove excess. The pinholes will have blue SuperFil in
them and will be easy to see. Let cure overnight, then lightly sand
entire piece, making sure not to remove the blue SuperFil from the
pinholes. Prime several filled parts with the same primer you're using
for your painting. After the primer cures, look closely for pinholes.
If any pinholes remain, fill with "glazing/spot putty" available from
auto parts stores. This putty is like a thinned Bondo and works into
the pinholes with the same squeegee. In 15 minutes it's ready to sand,
clean, and reprime. This method sounds like a lot of work, but it's
effective and doesn't take a lot of elbow grease.
Striping - Chances are that your paint will go on a little thicker than
the manufacturer recommends. Wait a little longer to use fine line tape
for stripes, or you may get tape tracks that have to be buffed out.
Ask the paint store for paint spec sheets, or locate and print them off
the internet, for the specific primer and paint that you'll be using.
Depending on the answers to my questions above, you may want to increase
the amount of reducer, and go with a reducer that is for a temperature
range higher than what you'll be working in.
Three good reasons to go with white; Red paint can cost twice as much as
white paint, dark colors show mistakes more easily, and dark colors
absorb a lot of energy from the sun.
My investment:
Paint booth - $250 (plastic, drop cloths, sawhorses, fans, filters,
door, and duct tape)
Supplies - $100 (masking tape, coated masking paper, fine line tape,
coveralls, wipes, tack cloths, etc.)
Paint - $1400 (1 gallon corrosion resistant primer, 2-3 gallons paint,
reducer, hardener, cleaner)
I'll be happy to provide more detailed information if anyone has
questions. Again, this may all be covered in the books that I haven't
read, and if so, I apologize. Questions can be posted on this site or
to my direct email address.
Happy painting!
Daniel Snow
RV-9A, Painting
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rv6(at)earthlink.net Guest
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:12 am Post subject: Painting Questions and Advice |
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I went to the PPG paint school a few years ago,and that paint and gun has
flow rates
and pressures for that exact paint and gun..Meaning that if you look at
Devilbiss web site it will give you what tip and pressure AT THE GUN to
use..Also your PPG dealer
may have a tip pressure gauge to use for that gun that will nail the perfect
pressure
that you will need to do a great job..Just remember to use a large enough
hose 3/8
because smaller will get you in trouble,don't ask me how because it
hurts!!Always use
the correct temp range reducer AT THAT TIME..Practice on something first
like
a old car hood etc first....
Good luck
John McMahon (RV6 C/S )
---
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steve(at)newtech.com Guest
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:22 am Post subject: Painting Questions and Advice |
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Snow, Daniel A. wrote:
Quote: |
First, a confession and apology; I haven't read any of the books or
watched any of the videos on painting, so my questions and observations
may be obvious to those that have.
I'm using PPG's Concept and a Devilbiss FinishLine HVLP conversion gun.
>From the start orange peel has been a problem. I kept increasing the
pressure, increasing paint volume, and slowing my sweeping motion.
Although orange peel was decreasing, I was using an enormous amount of
paint. When I got to the wings, I decided to switch back to a
conventional gun, NAPA's gravity feed. Results were much better. After
talking with a painter friend, I have a couple suspicions;
1) The fast (low temperature) reducer is too fast
2) The amount of reducer is too little
3) The air pressure at the cap is too low
I've been following PPG's recommended temperature range and recipe', but
the friend suggested using a slower (medium temperature) reducer and
doubling the amount of reducer. He also suggested increasing the
pressure, but I've already maxed out the pressure both at the compressor
and at the gun's regulator.
Question #1: For anyone that's used Concept paint, what is your opinion
about using more reducer and a slower reducer?
Question #2: Do you spray rivet lines first to help fill around the
rivet head?
Now to share some of my experiences:
Two 20" box fans force air into the booth, with "sticky" filters on the
inlet side of the fans. These filters are available individually at
paint stores.
I started with pleated air filters at the booth exit, but they have too
much resistance to airflow. I'm switching to the fiber type.
The personnel entrance should be close to the inlet fans so that it's
not a primary means of escape for paint fog.
After a couple paint sessions, paint dust collects on the paint booth
walls and floor. Lightly rinse the walls with a water hose and lay new
paper drop cloth on the floor. The water will also raise the humidity
and cause the paint to cure a little more slowly, which aids in it
"flowing out".
Wear a Tyvek paint suit with hood to minimize lint/dust contamination
from your clothes.
Handling all the solvents will dry out your hands very quickly (I know,
I should be using gloves, but it hassssssssssnnnnnnnn'ttttttt affected
me yet, hasn't affected me yet, hasn't affected me yet), and you'll be
using hand lotion. That hand lotion has a sneaky way of finding its way
onto parts to be painted. I suggest washing your hands with soap before
working with parts to be painted. A friend also found that RTV is
persistent.
Alumiprep has a tendency to collect on the bottom of treated parts and
drying there. You have to rinse the bottom of parts frequently until
they're ready to dry.
Even after Alumiprep, parts should be cleaned with a cleaning wipe,
dried with a clean cloth, and wiped with a tack cloth.
HVLP may be better suited to professionals.
Most big parts can be suspended from wires or sawhorses in a manner that
allows you to paint with each side in a horizontal position. This
reduces the chances of runs and sags. For example, I placed 3' sections
of 4" PVC pipe through each end of the wings and rested the pipes on
sawhorses. This allows the wings to rotate around pipes. Another piece
of 2" PVC placed in one end helps secure the wing in a horizontal
position. Paint one side, flip the wing over, paint the other side.
I've ready the recommendation to practice painting on paper. I don't
know if this would work, but the slippery side of "coated" making paper
might make a better test piece since it won't absorb the paint.
The first "tack" coat of paint should be shot from about 12", and
applied quickly to provide about 50% coverage. Wait 10 minutes, shoot
the rivet lines and edges lightly, then shoot the final coat at 6"-8"
and a little more slowly and more heavily. Make sure to overlap up to
50%.
Pinholes - I know a lot has been written already, but I thought I could
be successful with less work. WRONG! Sand the parts until there are no
shiny spots left. Using a Bondo-type squeegee, work SuperFil back and
forth quickly, like using a paint brush, then scrape the squeegee
backwards to remove excess. The pinholes will have blue SuperFil in
them and will be easy to see. Let cure overnight, then lightly sand
entire piece, making sure not to remove the blue SuperFil from the
pinholes. Prime several filled parts with the same primer you're using
for your painting. After the primer cures, look closely for pinholes.
If any pinholes remain, fill with "glazing/spot putty" available from
auto parts stores. This putty is like a thinned Bondo and works into
the pinholes with the same squeegee. In 15 minutes it's ready to sand,
clean, and reprime. This method sounds like a lot of work, but it's
effective and doesn't take a lot of elbow grease.
Striping - Chances are that your paint will go on a little thicker than
the manufacturer recommends. Wait a little longer to use fine line tape
for stripes, or you may get tape tracks that have to be buffed out.
Ask the paint store for paint spec sheets, or locate and print them off
the internet, for the specific primer and paint that you'll be using.
Depending on the answers to my questions above, you may want to increase
the amount of reducer, and go with a reducer that is for a temperature
range higher than what you'll be working in.
Three good reasons to go with white; Red paint can cost twice as much as
white paint, dark colors show mistakes more easily, and dark colors
absorb a lot of energy from the sun.
My investment:
Paint booth - $250 (plastic, drop cloths, sawhorses, fans, filters,
door, and duct tape)
Supplies - $100 (masking tape, coated masking paper, fine line tape,
coveralls, wipes, tack cloths, etc.)
Paint - $1400 (1 gallon corrosion resistant primer, 2-3 gallons paint,
reducer, hardener, cleaner)
I'll be happy to provide more detailed information if anyone has
questions. Again, this may all be covered in the books that I haven't
read, and if so, I apologize. Questions can be posted on this site or
to my direct email address.
Happy painting!
Daniel Snow
I painted an RV-8 with the same paint and gun that you are using.
|
With just a couple of changes in your procedures you will love the
Concept/DeVilbiss FinishLine gun combination as much as I do. First you
want to get a 1.3mm tip. My gun came with 1.5, 1.8 and 2.2mm tips.
Don't screw around with this, get the 1.3mm tip. the next thing is you
want to run with a little higher pressure at the gun. Mine usually runs
around 38+ psi at the gun. Make sure you have a centrifugal filter at
the gun. Now the secret to using Concept is how you thin it. I have
had great success thinning it just like lacquer. This is a sight/feel
thing not a measure thing. First measure your paint and thinner using
your ratio paint cup. Add your paint and the amount of thinner
recommended on the can. This is just the starting point. You are going
to add probably about 20% to 30% more thinner. BUT, you are not going
to measure it you are going to add small amounts of thiner and watch how
the paint flows off of the end of the mixing stick. Mixed to the ratio
printed on the can you will see the paint flow off of the stick in an
unbroken stream. We want to keep adding thinner until the paint
transitions into dropping in droplets rather than a smooth flow. If you
are going to err, err on the side of more thinner rather than less.
You are going to have to develop the technique of handling the gun
during the spraying process. If you mix the paint like I described
above and you are using the reducer recommended by the paint store for
your local conditions you can easily get beautiful results. It sure
sounds like you are getting way too much paint. I also really like the
plastic baggies in the paint cup. This frees you up so you can spray
with the gun upside down and not worry about paint dripping.
I am sure you will get as many suggestions as there are painters. This
is just what has worked for me.
Steve Eberhart
RV-7A, O-360-A1A, Catto 3 blade, working on finish kit
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n801bh(at)netzero.com Guest
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 3:30 pm Post subject: Painting Questions and Advice |
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I am not a professional painter and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night either. <G> I have painted my street rods, boats and god only knows what other stuff I have spiffed up in the past. Your approach is sound and well thought out. Painting is like flying, driving a race car or any other highly demanding activity. There is not substitute for "seat time".. As alot of us that have painted our kit planes know by now, there is a VERY fine line between getting a slick finish with very little orange peel and creating that dreaded ,,, RUN .. I am curious though, with the product your are spraying,, How long do you wait for the paint to cure till you tape off for stripes???
Thanks in advance..
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Snow, Daniel A." <Daniel.Snow(at)wancdf.com> wrote:
--> RV-List message posted by: "Snow, Daniel A." <Daniel.Snow(at)wancdf.com>
First, a confession and apology; I haven't read any of the books or
watched any of the videos on painting, so my questions and observations
may be obvious to those that have.
I'm using PPG's Concept and a Devilbiss FinishLine HVLP conversion gun.
Quote: | From the start orange peel has been a problem. I kept increasing the
pressure, increasing paint volume, and slowing my sweeping motion.
|
Although orange peel was decreasing, I was using an enormous amount of
paint. When I got to the wings, I decided to switch back to a
conventional gun, NAPA's gravity feed. Results were much better. After
talking with a painter friend, I have a couple suspicions;
1) The fast (low temperature) reducer is too fast
2) The amount of reducer is too little
3) The air pressure at the cap is too low
I've been following PPG's recommended temperature range and recipe', but
the friend suggested using a slower (medium temperature) reducer and
doubling the amount of reducer. He also suggested increasing the
pressure, but I've already maxed out the pressure both at the compressor
and at the gun's regulator.
Question #1: For anyone that's used Concept paint, what is your opinion
about using more reducer and a slower reducer?
Question #2: Do you spray rivet lines first to help fill around the
rivet head?
Now to share some of my experiences:
Two 20" box fans force air into the booth, with "sticky" filters on the
inlet side of the fans. These filters are available individually at
paint stores.
I started with pleated air filters at the booth exit, but they have too
much resistance to airflow. I'm switching to the fiber type.
The personnel entrance should be close to the inlet fans so that it's
not a primary means of escape for paint fog.
After a couple paint sessions, paint dust collects on the paint booth
walls and floor. Lightly rinse the walls with a water hose and lay new
paper drop cloth on the floor. The water will also raise the humidity
and cause the paint to cure a little more slowly, which aids in it
"flowing out".
Wear a Tyvek paint suit with hood to minimize lint/dust contamination
from your clothes.
Handling all the solvents will dry out your hands very quickly (I know,
I should be using gloves, but it hassssssssssnnnnnnnn'ttttttt affected
me yet, hasn't affected me yet, hasn't affected me yet), and you'll be
using hand lotion. That hand lotion has a sneaky way of finding its way
onto parts to be painted. I suggest washing your hands with soap before
working with parts to be painted. A friend also found that RTV is
persistent.
Alumiprep has a tendency to collect on the bottom of treated parts and
drying there. You have to rinse the bottom of parts frequently until
they're ready to dry.
Even after Alumiprep, parts should be cleaned with a cleaning wipe,
dried with a clean cloth, and wiped with a tack cloth.
HVLP may be better suited to professionals.
Most big parts can be suspended from wires or sawhorses in a manner that
allows you to paint with each side in a horizontal position. This
reduces the chances of runs and sags. For example, I placed 3' sections
of 4" PVC pipe through each end of the wings and rested the pipes on
sawhorses. This allows the wings to rotate around pipes. Another piece
of 2" PVC placed in one end helps secure the wing in a horizontal
position. Paint one side, flip the wing over, paint the other side.
I've ready the recommendation to practice painting on paper. I don't
know if this would work, but the slippery side of "coated" making paper
might make a better test piece since it won't absorb the paint.
The first "tack" coat of paint should be shot from about 12", and
applied quickly to provide about 50% coverage. Wait 10 minutes, shoot
the rivet lines and edges lightly, then shoot the final coat at 6"-8"
and a little more slowly and more heavily. Make sure to overlap up to
50%.
Pinholes - I know a lot has been written already, but I thought I could
be successful with less work. WRONG! Sand the parts until there are no
shiny spots left. Using a Bondo-type squeegee, work SuperFil back and
forth quickly, like using a paint brush, then scrape the squeegee
backwards to remove excess. The pinholes will have blue SuperFil in
them and will be easy to see. Let cure overnight, then lightly sand
entire piece, making sure not to remove the blue SuperFil from the
pinholes. Prime several filled parts with the same primer you're using
for your painting. After the primer cures, look closely for pinholes.
If any pinholes remain, fill with "glazing/spot putty" available from
auto parts stores. This putty is like a thinned Bondo and works into
the pinholes with the same squeegee. In 15 minutes it's ready to sand,
clean, and reprime. This method sounds like a lot of work, but it's
effective and doesn't take a lot of elbow grease.
Striping - Chances are that your paint will go on a little thicker than
the manufacturer recommends. Wait a little longer to use fine line tape
for stripes, or you may get tape tracks that have to be buffed out.
Ask the paint store for paint spec sheets, or locate and print them off
the internet, for the specific primer and paint that you'll be using.
Depending on the answers to my questions above, you may want to increase
the amount of reducer, and go with a reducer that is for a temperature
range higher than what you'll be working in.
Three good reasons to go with white; Red paint can cost twice as much as
white paint, dark colors show mistakes more easily, and dark colors
absorb a lot of energy from the sun.
My investment:
Paint booth - $250 (plastic, drop cloths, sawhorses, fans, filters,
door, and duct tape)
Supplies - $100 (masking tape, coated masking paper, fine line tape,
coveralls, wipes, tack cloths, etc.)
Paint - $1400 (1 gallon corrosion resistant primer, 2-3 gallons paint,
reducer, hardener, cleaner)
I'll be happy to provide more detailed information if anyone has
questions. Again, this may all be covered in the books that I haven't
read, and if so, I apologize. Questions can be posted on this site or
to my direct email address.
Happy pa================================================ - The RV-List Email Fo;List utilities such as the Subscriptions ================================================ - NEW MATRONICS WEB FO====================================================== [quote][b]
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dsnow(at)coosahs.net Guest
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Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:57 am Post subject: Painting Questions and Advice |
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The spec sheet says it can be taped in about 8 hours. I let mine cure
overnight and still got tape trails. The next time I let it cure for about
24 hours and that worked much better. My problem is probably that I'm
putting on too much paint. I'm about to paint now and will try using more
reducer to reduce paint buildup and to get more flow out.
Quote: | Time: 04:30:16 PM PST US
From: "n801bh(at)netzero.com" <n801bh(at)netzero.com>
Subject: Re: Painting Questions and Advice
As alot of us that have painted our kit planes know by now,
there is a VERY fine line between getting a slick finish with very li
ttle orange peel and creating that dreaded ,,, RUN .. I am curious thoug
h, with the product your are spraying,, How long do you wait for the pai
nt to cure till you tape off for stripes???
Thanks in advance..
|
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deruiteraircraftservices( Guest
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Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:34 pm Post subject: Painting Questions and Advice |
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Hi All,
two things are of major influence when you paint:
1: temperature, most two pack paints require at least 15 centigrade
preferable a bit higher around 18- 20 C mark. IF you CANNOT maintain this
temperature for at least 6 hours, don't even attempt any paint spraying.
2: humidity,humidy between 40 - 70 % is fairly ideal. It can be elevated by
wetting the floor, this is perfect when you're trying to accelerate the
curing of polyurethane. Around 27C with a bucket of water over the floor
does miracles on the cure time with Polyurethane. Excessive high temps won't
hasten your case with poly.
The 2 points above are required because of chemical reaction to be started
and maintained between base and hardener. Yes, I know people too who claim
to got away with far less, but it's like a poorly built aircraft, it flies
and that's that.
Technique and practise is what will make your paintjob look well. It can't
be stressed enough 2 thin coats are better than one heavy one, regardless of
what you spray.
When I paint RV's I give it a single crosscoat where I just go a bit heavier
than dusting the surface. When it's complete I go out of the booth and have
a coffee and a snack, after half an hour I suit up again and give it a wet
crosscoat. Look into the light and spray along with the mirror, in other
words when you do your wet crosscoat which is about twice as haevy as your
first coat, you'll notice that you get a good glossy finish which mirrors.
When you make your passes keep spraying in a 50% overlap with the previous
track and bring the mirror towards you without any hurry and without any
interuptions. This will avoid any dry spots you 'll have to cut and polish
afterwards.
As you'll appreciate it's not that easy to teach someone to spray over the
internet, so I only can give you some of the basic tips, if you practise a
bit, even on a bit of masking paper, you'll swiftly get the hang of it. The
most difficult thing in the begining will be the set up of your gun. Again
use the masking paper and set up the ratio between paint and air. Too much
paint at a given amount of air WILL produce orangepeel, no matter what type
of paint you spray.
Finally, the distance between the tip of your gun and your object is about
the spread of your hand, spread hand as far as it goes, the distance between
little finger and thumb is about 8" with most adults a faiurly good distance
to start of with.
As goes for runs and sags, I've been painting airliners for years both in
the factory and out in the big maintenace facilities for years and light
aircraft in the more recent years, they still occasionally happen. As long
as you keep moving and don't keep hitting the same spot over and over you'll
have a fair chance avoiding them.
To aid your concentration switching of the cellphone is certainly a help!
Good luck to all of you trying it for the first time and keep the paint to a
minimum, it's an aircarft and not classic Rolls Royce motorcar needing 32
coats of paint.
Marcel
RV7 flying
RV10 allmost
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pcowper(at)webtv.net (Pet Guest
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Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:23 pm Post subject: Painting Questions and Advice |
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". . . it's an aircarft and not classic Rolls Royce motorcar needing 32
coats of paint."
Besides, if you stay away from airshows ATC will keep other pilots at
least 500 feet away from your plane!
Pete Cowper
RV8 #81139
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deruiteraircraftservices( Guest
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Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:48 pm Post subject: Painting Questions and Advice |
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I'll tell you one better than that, the Boeing specs call for a visual
inspection from 10 feet, even at teen feet it can be difficult to spot some
surface imperfections. So if you want to with your 500 feet..............
do not archive
---
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