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grabo172

Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Beaver, OH

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:27 pm Post subject: Full throttle power loss

So my Rotax 447 Bing 54 carb Firestar has been at another airport for 2 days now...  the reason...



When I apply full power and take off about 30 seconds into the climb I loose engine power.  I can run at partial throttle and get back and land, but the full throttle will kill it.



I have a couple theories...



One is a bad/wrong size main jet... 

but I took it apart and verified it was clean and the right size (it's a 165) and today it was an internationally standard day temp wise (65F) at sea level.  



My other thought is maybe the carb is not vertical and tilted too far back during the climb and therefore the bowl level is tilted and uncovering the jet?



I'll attach a picture of the carb...



Any other thoughts on what it may be...



Ground run is good, I adjusted the clip to #2 from top and re tuned the carb on the ground.



-Erik

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_________________
-Erik Grabowski
N?????
CFI/CFII/LS-I

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject: Full throttle power loss

Try taking out your squeeze bulb if you have one in your gas line. I had the 

same problem and it was due to a brand new out of the box squeeze bulb.

Larry

---

grabo172

Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Beaver, OH

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Full throttle power loss

Unfortunately... No squeeze bulb...

_________________
-Erik Grabowski
N?????
CFI/CFII/LS-I

planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Full throttle power loss

Is the main jet "Loose"..... I've had one do that......



   Gotta Fly...

Mike & "Jaz" in MN

.

.

.PS also check yer hard line from the engine to the fuel pump....make sure yer pulse line isn't loosing it's  ummf....

captainron1(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:09 pm Post subject: Full throttle power loss

It sounds like its chocking on too much fuel. do you have a choke in          the Rotax, or anything else that will either restrict air or give it          too much fuel.              

         My SWAG              

                       

         Ron (Arizona)

---- grabo172 <grabo172(at)sc.rr.com> wrote:



=============

-->          Kolb-List message posted by: "grabo172" <grabo172(at)sc.rr.com>



Unfortunately...          No squeeze bulb... 



--------

-Erik Grabowski

Kolb          Firestar N197BG

CFI/CFII/LS-I





Read this topic             

      [quote][b]

grabo172

Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Beaver, OH

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Full throttle power loss

I took out the main jet and cleaned and verified it to be the right size and re tightened it with the same loss of power results...



I very vaguely looked at the pulse line... I'll check it better next time I get out to the plane...

_________________
-Erik Grabowski
N?????
CFI/CFII/LS-I

grabo172

Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Beaver, OH

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: Full throttle power loss

 	  captainron1(at)cox.net wrote: 	
		  It sounds like its chocking on too much fuel. do you have a choke in          the Rotax, or anything else that will either restrict air or give it          too much fuel.              

         My SWAG              

                       

   	




I do have a choke...  that might be something to check too, I wonder if maybe it is stuck a little bit on...  



Keep'm coming, I need a good list to check when I get out there...

_________________
-Erik Grabowski
N?????
CFI/CFII/LS-I

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:17 pm Post subject: Full throttle power loss

Then I would change the fuel pump, whichever kind that you have. You have a 

blockage somewhere in the system that will not allow sufficient fuel to be 

delivered for full power. I am assuming that you have changed all the 

filters and checked the pickup tube in the fuel tank its self for blockage.

Larry

---

jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Full throttle power loss

What was your egt at FT on ground and in climb?  Low EGT indicates rich.  If it's good on the ground but way too rich in air, could be flooding due to nose-up climb attitude.  



You may want to tie down and raise the nose to simulate climb attitude.



While limping back with part throttle, does it ever recover to the point where you can get full throttle again (before landing).

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

Eugene Zimmerman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:54 pm Post subject: Full throttle power loss

The symptoms you describe do not fit a fuel enrichner problem. Any  

problem with a leaking or stuck open enrichner would definitely be  

worse a part throttle than full throttle.

What you describe indicates a fuel starvation problem. Several things  

could cause this. Worn or defective fuel pump diaphragm, or leaking  

pulse line or fuel lines that allow air to enter under negative  

pressure, or foreign matter causing restriction.

Gene

On Mar 19, 2007, at 6:13 PM, grabo172 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 captainron1(at)cox.net wrote:

> It sounds like its chocking on too much fuel. do you have a choke  

> in          the Rotax, or anything else that will either restrict  

> air or give it          too much fuel.

>          My SWAG

 I do have a choke...  that might be something to check too, I  

 wonder if maybe it is stuck a little bit on...

 Keep'm coming, I need a good list to check when I get out there...

 --------

 -Erik Grabowski

 Kolb Firestar N197BG

 CFI/CFII/LS-I

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=101723#101723

jim

Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: Full throttle power loss

If I have time, I will do a couple things to troubleshoot engine power loss.



One would be to pull out the choke/enrichment and see if the problem gets better or worse.  Better => it was too lean.  Worse => it is too rich.



You can check EGTs.  If the engine is at reduced power it's harder to gage but it may help.  If EGTs spike just before power loss, too lean (fuel starvation?).



I had problems last Summer in a Quicksilver with Cuyuna 430 and Mikuni carb.  It would always run great during climbout but would lose power after level off.  Took me about 4 flights for me to make the connection.  Turns out the Mikuni would flood out when tilted forward during level off.  It ran great on the ground.  Rotated the carb back a bit (and marked its position) and it worked great after that.

_________________
Jim
N. Idaho

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:46 pm Post subject: Full throttle power loss

Erik, Did you buy fuel between the time the engine ran properly and when it didn't? 

Have you tried pushing over to level flight or shallow dive while still at WOT? 

What do the plugs look like? 

Was the flight to this airport where the airplane is now uneventful?  

If you are practiced at dead stick landings, put in new plugs (after you put the needle back where it was) let it begin to miss and stumble on climb, shut it down and glide in. Check the plugs per the Bing manual.

 >From my Italian and English sport car days, "95% of carburetor problems are solved in the ignition system".



Rick



On 3/19/07, Larry Cottrell  <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com (lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Larry Cottrell" <lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com (lcottrell(at)fmtcblue.com)>



Try taking out your squeeze bulb if you have one in your gas line. I had the 

same problem and it was due to a brand new out of the box squeeze bulb.

Larry

---

grabo172

Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Beaver, OH

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: Full throttle power loss

 	  jindoguy(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  Erik, Did you buy fuel between the time the engine ran properly and when it didn't? 

Have you tried pushing over to level flight or shallow dive while still at WOT? 

What do the plugs look like? 

Was the flight to this airport where the airplane is now uneventful?  

If you are practiced at dead stick landings, put in new plugs (after you put the needle back where it was) let it begin to miss and stumble on climb, shut it down and glide in. Check the plugs per the Bing manual.

 >From my Italian and English sport car days, "95% of carburetor problems are solved in the ignition system".



Rick

--- 	




Let's see...



I did put gas in before this flight.



The flight to the airport (aside from being very bumpy) was uneventful.  It's about 18 miles away and I made a pass over another airport before I got there, so my total flight was about 25 miles to the airport where it is now.



I'd try the dead stick idea, but I only get to about 400' before the problem acts up... not really safe for a dead stick from there.



I haven't tried to push it over for level WOT...  I'll try that the next time I'm out trouble shooting.



Right now, I'm leaning toward the fuel line contamination...  I've been only up a few times in the last couple months.  



I think my next act is to drain the tank and inspect the fuel pickup and refuel with fresh gas.  Also I'm going to pull the plugs and see what's been going on with the mixture.  And I'm going to inspect the pulse line and fuel pump for indication of a failure...



I'll put the wheels up in a climb attitude, tie her down tight and see if I can recreate the problem on the ground too...  I prefer that to the take off and see what happens method...



Let me know if you guys think of anything else...

_________________
-Erik Grabowski
N?????
CFI/CFII/LS-I

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject: Full throttle power loss

Erik:



Anybody tell you to change the fuel filter?



Blow back through the fuel line from pump to tank to insure it is 

clear.



Take the bowl off the carb again and insure there are no little specks 

of "stuff" in there that might get into the main jet.



Tie it down and run it wide open for 5 mins or more to see what the 

results are.



john h

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

DAquaNut(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:00 pm Post subject: Full throttle power loss

In a message dated 3/19/2007 5:47:23 P.M. Central Standard Time,  jindoguy(at)gmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  If you    are practiced at dead stick landings, put in new plugs (after you put the    needle back where it was) let it begin to miss and stumble on climb, shut it    down and glide in. Check the plugs per the Bing manual.

 	  Quote: 	
		  From my Italian    and English sport car days, "95% of carburetor problems are solved in the    ignition system".


	


Rick



	


 

                  I found out recently that your plugs may not ignite the fuel properly once the  plugs get fouled or very wet with fuel. Engine at full throttle was 300 rpm  below normal. Changed the plugs and the rpms came back up. Plugs looked almost  like new! Ya CAN'T tell by lookin!

  

            Ed    ( In Houston)



AOL now offers free email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. 

  [quote][b]

rowedenny(at)windstream.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:23 pm Post subject: Full throttle power loss

You will also want to make sure there is no foreign debris in the float 

bowl.

I had a small piece of rubber from the inside of the primer bulb once cause 

me to suck the seat cushion of my Loehle up my butt during a low, fast pass 

at a friends strip.

Added full power and got half, too hot to land so I used the excess speed to 

buy enough altitude to nurse it around the pattern to a safe landing.

Ever since, I have run a small extra fuel filter just before the carb.

Denny Rowe

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:45 pm Post subject: Full throttle power loss

Erik, I experienced an identical and I mean IDENTICAL situation I narated a 

couple of months back.

The problem turned out to be a little miniature looking pine cone (seed) 

that would lodge itself in the petcock exiting the gas tank, whenever you 

gave it full throttle.

     You'd get full throttle for long enough to get airborne...then back to 

idle!!   Yet, on the ground everything seemed to be ok!!   You see it would 

plug the hole enough for only idle speed(after full T/O throttle), yet gave 

good performance while it was building a vacuum in the fuel line from the 

tank.

     If it were me, I'd clean and verify EVERY speck of crap is not slowing 

the fuel down, from the gas cap to the line entering the carburator.  And 

this problem is BEFORE the filter....not in front of the carb.    FWIW      

Mike in SW Utah



PS  I know now to  never, never. never, use a household (for lawnmowers, 

etc) gas can to refuel a plane.  BTW  This wasn't my plane.  I was just an 

assistant.



_________________________________________________________________

Watch free concerts with Pink, Rod Stewart, Oasis and more. Visit MSN 

Presents today. 

http://music.msn.com/presents?icid=ncmsnpresentstagline&ocid=T002MSN03A07001

grabo172

Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Beaver, OH

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: Full throttle power loss

I think I recall you talking about that Mike...



Even though I use a normal gas can, I now ALWAYS put my fuel through a Mr. Funnel before it goes in the tank... I think your story inspired me to go get one.



but I don't think the builder of my plane did that and I actually didn't the first couple times I fueled it, I used a regular funnel, until I read your story.



I'm most definatently going to clean and inspect the entire fuel sytem...

_________________
-Erik Grabowski
N?????
CFI/CFII/LS-I

Roger Lee

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1464
Location: Tucson, Az.

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: Full throttle power loss

When this exact same thing happened to me it was a split in the fuel pump diaphram.  My airplane had the same symptoms.

Won't hurt to pull it apart and take a look.

This was why I installed a low pressure electric pump and just removed the stock pump. I put in a more reliable one.

_________________
Roger Lee
Tucson, Az.
Rotax Instructor & Rotax IRC
Light Sport Repairman
Home 520-574-1080 TRY HOME FIRST
Cell 520-349-7056

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:28 pm Post subject: Full throttle power loss

My similar story was that my electric backup (Facet) pump (plumbed in series) developed a faulty check valve that restricted flow just enough so that I'd only notice it at full-throttle.  Replacing it with a new one fixed the problem. 



  -- Robert

On 3/19/07, Roger Lee <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Roger Lee" <ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com (ssadiver1(at)yahoo.com)>



When this exact same thing happened to me it was a split in the fuel pump diaphram.  My airplane had the same symptoms. 

Won't hurt to pull it apart and take a look.

This was why I installed a low pressure electric pump and just removed the stock pump. I put in a more reliable one.



--------

Roger Lee

Tucson, Az.



 



[b]

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

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