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jindoguy(at)gmail.com Guest
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:36 am Post subject: Oxygen deprivation |
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(a) General. No person may operate a civil aircraft of U.S. registry—
(1) At cabin pressure altitudes above 12,500 feet (MSL) up to and including 14,000 feet (MSL) unless the required minimum flight crew is provided with and uses supplemental oxygen for that part of the flight at those altitudes that is of more than 30 minutes duration;
During a flight around Mt. St. Helens a few years ago, I discovered the rationale for this limitation first hand. I was taking a friend up to take some pictures of the mountain and because of winds aloft we had to make the flight at 13,500'. As we passed through 12,000 feet I started a stop watch. We were 20 minutes into it and my friend had just moved back into the front seat (we were in a C182). As I was busy keeping a close watch for other traffic, I didn't notice immediately that she was bent over with her head between her knees. When I asked if she was all right, she said she was fine except she couldn't see. I began a descent as soon as I was sure we were clear of any other traffic. I monitored her condition on the way down and her vision gradually returned. We landed at a small airport west of the mountain as planned for a picnic lunch. While eating lunch, I heard an airplane in the distance and looked up. I could not distinguish the aircraft from all the other objects that seemed to be there. It was almost two hours before my vision cleared.
When I asked my doctor about it later, he said it was my reaction to oxygen deprivation. I asked if it was normal to have such a reaction so much later and after returning to sea level, he said it apparently is for me.
My friend is 5' 1" and barely 100 lb. I am 6' 1" and 210 lb. Both of us are in fairly good shape. We both had a reaction, based upon our individual tolerance to lack of sufficient oxygen. Your reaction may be different, still, but it will be individual to you. If you don't know what that reaction might be, you might want to consider taking along a portable oxygen system. Finding myself blind at the controls of an airplane is not where I would ever want to be.
Rick
--
Rick Girard
"Ya'll drop on in"
takes on a whole new meaning
when you live at the airport. [quote][b]
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1246
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:10 am Post subject: Re: Oxygen deprivation |
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That shows an incredibly low tolerance to altitude, you must not be in as good a shape as you think... I have flown up to 18,000 feet with zero effects, and have gone up 15,000 feet on my motorcycle. I have done heavy excercise and spent the night above 12,000, all with zero ill effects. If you are in poor shape, smoke, etc. etc. you need to be careful for that, but just because it happens to you does not mean it will happen to others.
I know lots of guys that go to high altitude from sea level, and I never heard anything as severe as what you are talking about. I would be worried if I were you, that is really not normal for someone that does not smoke and is in reasonable health.
Mike
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_________________ "NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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a58r(at)verizon.net Guest
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:10 pm Post subject: Oxygen deprivation |
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Some 41 yrs ago, when I was 41 yrs younger, on one ferry trip from VNY to Washington DC area, I was tired of previous trips via PSP and ABQ, so decided to use the high route on the old com'l exam: Alamosa CO to Walsenburg CO, filing for 13K eastbound IFR. Taxiing by an airline Convair 340 at Alamosa, the pilot, who had hear me on radio, sneered "You gonna get that toy over the humps?" My only discomfort at 13k was that my cigar kept going out unless I kinda breathed in almost continually thru the soggy thing. Later I had to go to 15 to avoid some rotors. No more cigars.
regards,
Bob N. FireFly 070 Old Kolb
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/ronoy/
do not archive
[quote][b]
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Thom Riddle
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1597 Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:52 am Post subject: Re: Oxygen deprivation |
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Rick - Thanks for the personal story. I never new that sight loss was a symptom of oxygen deprivation. I've flown to as high as 12,500 for less than 30 minutes due to the regulation and fortunately had no problem, either then or afterwards. I've been tempted to see how high our Allegro will go since it has a claimed service ceiling of about 18,000 feet. But since I don't have an oxy system I've not tried it but been tempted to. Your story convinces me not to try it without oxy.
Several years ago I took my 91 year old father up Pikes Peak which is abit over 14,000 feet and he started feeling faint so we headed down and he was fine by the time we got down to the tree line. When I was in my early 30s I went to the top of Pikes, and walked around with no ill effects but on this trip with my father, when I was in my early 50s walking was a lot more tiring. I have never smoked and have outstanding lung capacity and a bit overweight but otherwise in good shape.
As is the norm for government regulations, the 12,500 for more than 30 minutes rule is set on the conservative side for the most vulnerable-to-oxygen-deprivation among the pilot population. Others may not need it until much higher, but as Rick stated, some do. BTW it is not merely a function of physical conditioning that determines the oxygen level that is tolerated by any individual. Unless the FARs have changed, airliners are required to maintain cabin pressure of no more than 8,000 feet.
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_________________ Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)
Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous |
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David Lucas
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 79 Location: Europe. based Amsterdam NL
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:18 am Post subject: Re: Oxygen deprivation |
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Be careful with this one people, it's potentially dangerous ! ! !
You may get and recognise certain symptoms such as blue fingernails, tunnel vision or headaches etc BUT you also may not get the symptoms even though you're suffering the effects !
You WILL have impairement of your judgement and your responses and skill levels without realising it, regardless of your initial fitness status, and therein lies the danger.
There was a 'spam-can' driver some years ago who went up to something like 14 or 15 thousand, which seems harmless enough, to take advantage of a great tail-wind. He was feeling great (euphoria) and thinking things were going just fine but didn't even notice the fuel level steadily dropping towards zero. Lucky for him he did start to descend to his destination before he ran out of fuel . . . but only just. You see, the original plan was to have an en-route fuel stop !
He thought everything was OK but it was far from it. There's one side dangerous side effect, euphoria, you think all is OK when it's not.
Second have you seen those Air Force altitude chamber tests ? Yes they pass out at 30,000 ft+ if they don't get their oxy masks on very quickly but even at lower levels it starts to tell. At altitudes below 20,000 ft they get them to take ther masks off and do simple tasks like adding numbers or joining the dots to make a drawing. They think they've done OK but when theu get down to sea level and look at their performance, they can hardly believe it, the numbers are almost unreadable, not aligned with the page and often wrong and the dot to dot drawings are just a random scribble.
So second side effect, you think your skill levels are OK when they most certainly are not. What would they have performed like in a real emergency situation. Adrenalin does come to the rescue to a certain degree, but not enough.
So getting a Kolb above 10,000 without oxygen is potentially dangerous. Take care !
David.
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davistcs(at)eoni.com Guest
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:26 am Post subject: Oxygen deprivation |
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Listers,
Not Kolb related, but altitude related.
Years ago when my daughter was getting her private licence at Nampa, Idaho the FBO there had the contract to air transport mental patients to the state hospital at Blackfoot, Id. They always needed volunteers to ride along in the C182, it's pretty lonely as a single pilot in a plane with a crazy person. I always went along if I got the chance. The transportee(s) arrived in chains and lightly sedated. In spite of this some were angry, wild eyed types. After strapping them in (over the chains) the SOP was to climb to 12 - 14,000 ft. at which point it got real quiet in the back. We would then do a gradual cruise decent to Blackfoot where they would be just waking up. Then I got to fly back, while the pilot dozed. I'd do anything back then for time, even if I couldn't log it. The moral? Watch those depressants if you want to fly high.
Terry Davis
FS 1, Eastern Oregon
[quote][b]
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Ed in JXN
Joined: 24 Mar 2006 Posts: 122
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject: Oxygen deprivation |
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Bob,
Re: no more cigars - didja run out?? (Ah, the good old days. Nothing like the smell of a good Cuban and 12-year single-malt wafting up front after the bosses closed a deal. Now, many of 'em go spinning or somesuch. ;^( )
The effects of hypoxia are quite insidious, of course. Beware of those who say they suffer 'no effects', they are simply unaware of the effects. Many's the time while cruising with a cabin altitude in the 8K range that I sniffed a little O2 from the mask, and was surprised to see everyone on the ground suddenly brighten their lights on cue. Oxygen - it's a good thing.
Ed in JXN
MkII/503
Do not archive.
[quote] ---
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eagle1(at)commspeed.net Guest
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Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject: Oxygen deprivation |
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My brother in law was a crew man on an old C 47 flying Chinese soldiers over the Hump in the CBI in WWW II. He told me that they would pack the Chinese in the back and after they got up to 12 or 13000 feet everything would get quiet in the back.After they started to descend they would all shake there heads and come alive again. I guess it didn't hurt them any.
This is Kolb related because I have built and flown two of them.
Az Bald Eagle
do not archive
[quote] ---
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