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NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
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 Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: Forced landing |
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Ray
I changed the subject line.
You make some good points. You also have allot more decent control in a
glider than the average airplane without power. Those of us that have Kolbs
with flaps have just as much but are working with a much higher sink rate. I
also question how much glider training would help a Kolb pilot due to the
vast difference in glide ratios. I rarely see a 800ft/minute power off climb
in my Kolb.
A few years ago I had a forced landing and was actually surprised how easy
it was. The power of the MKIIIC flap system allows you to pinpoint your
landing by pulling the flaps up and down as necessary. There is just one
itty bitty issue of having a good landing spot close enough.
Last year when I got my biannual check ride in a C172, wow was I ever rusty
in that plane. Anyway the check pilot polled the power and said forced
landing. Using my experience in the Kolb was worthless in fact it was
counter productive. I was near a remote grass strip but I couldn't believe
the problem I had loosing altitude. I would have touched down right at the
end of the runway.
I would recommend everyone try this. Start a landing approach a bit high and
pull the power. Grab the flap handle and pull in some flaps almost
immediately lower the nose. Check your landing spot. Raise the flaps and the
nose. Try keeping your air speed the same by anticipating the effect of the
flaps. Use what ever flaps are necessary to get to your proposed landing
spot. Don't lock the flap in a notch use exactly the amount necessary.
One cautionary note. Do not continue on into the landing flare with zero
power and full flaps if you haven't worked slowly into this. My personal
forced landing technique is to make my plane handle just like it does with
my normal landing. My normal landing is with one notch of flap with about
20% power. I find landing with zero power and no flaps gives me about the
same flair/round out/touch down as my normal landing. Also allow some time
without flap changes to stabilize your approach before land. One last
thought, a no flap landing allows you more up elevator power to get your
tail down first and keep it down to reduce the chance of a nose over.
Rick Neilsen
Redrive VW powered MKIIIC
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jb92563
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: Forced landing |
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True you may not see any lift but the point I was trying to make was that a 1200lb glider coming down at 1000+ fpm is probably similar to a light power plane in terms of having to manage your approach to landing.
I am sure the flare timing is crucial but if you keep the speed up the control effectiveness will still be there.
The best speed for extending the glide is generally 1.2 x the stall speed, plus 1/2 the headwind.
A 45 mph stall aircraft should fly at around 55 mph + 1/2 the headwind to get the best glide distance.
I somehow dont think many power pilots know what their best power off glide for distance is, but could make the difference between hitting the fence or making the numbers in a power out situation.
I guess when you cant go around and try again you have to know these details.
My instructors favorite example is why a power plane pilot will ussually crash and burn if he losses power at 600' AGL and why Glider pilots with a tow failure at 200' AGL have no trouble doing a 180 turn to land back on the same runway.
Its about learning how to aggresively roll into a quick 60+ deg bank angle to make the turn in a glider while the power pilot makes his ussual 2 min turn he was taught with maybe 30 deg bank......but at 600' AGL and your power plane is sinking at say 600 fpm you have 1 minute of glide time before reaching the ground......guess what.....a standard 2 minute turn will get you a 180 degree turn right at ground level with no room to flare(I edited my previous statement since a 2 minute turn produces 360 degrees....ooops).....but if you had banked it up to 60 degrees and finished your turn in 30 seconds like the glider you will have height and time to decide where you want to park your plane at the end of the ground roll on the runway.
As far as fear of spinning goes, the highly banked turn actually reduces the possibility of spinning for reasons that I can explain if anyone would like to know.
Ray
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Ray
Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider
Do Not Archive
Last edited by jb92563 on Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jim
Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 107
Location: N. Idaho
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:22 pm Post subject: Forced landing |
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You forgot to mention that a glider will glide 30:1, whereas a typical
cessna may be 8:1. Starting at Vy, I don't think many powered aircraft
could make a 180 in 200 feet. But you're right about 600'. Using proper
technique most light aircraft should be able to make a 180 in 600 feet.
| Quote: |
My instructors favorite example is why a power plane pilot will ussually
crash and burn if he losses power at 600' AGL and why Glider pilots with a
tow failure at 200' AGL have no trouble doing a 180 turn to land back on
the same runway.
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Jim
N. Idaho |
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d-m-hague(at)comcast.net
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject: Forced landing |
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At 03:11 PM 4/4/2007, Richard & Martha Neilsen wrote:
| Quote: | You make some good points. You also have allot more decent control in a
glider than the average airplane without power. Those of us that have
Kolbs with flaps have just as much..
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Which brings up an interesting question. My US, of course, has no
flaps. Neither did my T-Craft, but in a full rudder slip it would drop
like a rock, so no flaps were needed. With so little side area, how
effective is a slip in an Ultrastar? In the Quick I was flying last year
slips were worthless, but that was because of the large dihedral; the
rudder overpowered the ailerons. Of course a Quick is so draggy you just
push the stick forward and dive straight at the runway.
-Dana
--
--
The citizens of the United States are getting the government they deserve.
The problem is that I'm also getting the government they deserve.
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jb92563
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: Forced landing |
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True gliders do 30:1 and sink at only 200fpm instead of 600fpm......thats why we compared with different heights....so that it was still about the 1 minute and what you do with it when you are forced to land.
Bank it up 60+ degrees and get that turn done quicker is the message.
UStars dont seem to have much side area for a slip, but turning the wing sideways to the direction of travel makes the wing shorter and hence produces less lift, so you sink faster, plus you have the rudder cranked way over and producing drag as well......but not as well as if there was a big fuselage to create drag as well.....but still enough to make it worthwhile I imagine....plus its fun.
Ray
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Ray
Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:39 pm Post subject: Forced landing |
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| UStars dont seem to have much side area for a slip, but turning the
wing sideways to the direction of travel makes the wing shorter and
hence produces less lift, so you sink faster, plus you have the rudder
cranked way over and producing drag as well......but not as well as if
there was a big fuselage to create drag as well.....but still enough
to make it worthwhile I imagine....plus its fun.
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| Ray
Ray:
How much time did you say you have in your Ultrastar?
john h
mkIII
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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Russ Kinne
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 182
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:00 pm Post subject: Forced landing |
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| Quote: | Can't resist asking -- you say "I rarely see a 800ft/minute power
off climb in my Kolb."??? -- Climb?
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Forced landing |
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| jb92563 wrote: |
UStars dont seem to have much side area for a slip, but turning the wing sideways to the direction of travel makes the wing shorter and hence produces less lift, so you sink faster, plus you have the rudder cranked way over and producing drag as well......but not as well as if there was a big fuselage to create drag as well.....but still enough to make it worthwhile I imagine....plus its fun.
Ray |
Maximum yaw in a kolb is maybe 15 degrees.... If you do the math of how long the wing is in relation to the air hitting it, at maximum yaw you may effectively shorten the wing a couple inches. In other words, you shortening a Kolb wing a couple inches has zero noticiable effect in sink. Its the extra drag created by a sideslip that does it.
Mike
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"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
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Thom Riddle
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Forced landing |
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Ray,
Your statement about best glide speed being about 1.2 times stall speed got me to thinking a bit (dangerous at times). This number may be fairly close for gliders with high aspect ratio wings but is not quite accurate for airplanes that generally have far lower aspect wings.
Attached is a spreadsheet showing TYPICAL V speeds for light aircraft in the approximately 100 mph cruise speed range. For slower aircraft with similar aspect ratios (like most Kolbs) the ratio between the various speeds and the RANGE of speed between stall and max. continous cruise holds fairly constant. The spreadsheet also contains a column that shows an airplane with a max. continuous cruise speed of 85 and stall of 35. You can plug in the numbers for your airplane in the two yellow fields and the blue fields will automatically be calculated.
These numbers are for calm wind conditions (glide and climb angles). Adding 1/2 the headwind component or subtracting 1/2 the tailwind component is a good approximation of how to modify the ANGLE speeds, as Ray said.
None of these numbers are carved in stone but are very good first order approximations for most airplanes with typical aspect ratio wings.
If you don't have spreadsheet software and want to know what the calculations for your airplane would be, send me an email with your max. continous cruise speed and your stall speed (without flaps) and I'll be glad to send you the numbers.
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V speeds estimator.xls |
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