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Cross country/MOA's/Thunder Ridge

 
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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:49 am    Post subject: Cross country/MOA's/Thunder Ridge Reply with quote

In reading Guy's trip report, and finding Thunder Ridge on my Phoenix
chart, it reminded me that I'll have a lot of MOA's to deal with
crossing the country. Right now I don't have my radio
endorsement...I'm hoping to get with my instructor before I go to Sun
'n' Fun to sign me off. So what is the group's experience with
dealing with MOA's? Go around, go through with radio calls, go
through with crossed fingers....what?

Lynn
do not archive


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Lynn
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Bob



Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Damascus, Maryland, USA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:00 am    Post subject: Re: Cross country/MOA's/Thunder Ridge Reply with quote

Got buzzed by a pair of F-4 Phantoms (showing my age here) and don't want to EVER have that happen again. I absolutely believe in squawking 1200 and telling whoever is listed as the controlling agency (see bottom of the sectional chart) that I'm there!

BTW, a transponder and antenna can work just fine on a battery! We have a electric-less Champ at our airport that runs the xpdr and an Icom off an Odyssey motorcycle battery.

Bob


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mscotter



Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 49
Location: Winston-Salem, NC

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:55 am    Post subject: Cross country/MOA's/Thunder Ridge Reply with quote

Hi Lynn, I'll give you one guy's opinion on the matter.
You can always look up the controlling agency for that MOA on the chart as well as the normal hours of operation (listed on the bottom of the chart, isn't it?), and that is definitely a good idea. I personally would never enter an MOA without talking with atc and asking whether that area is 'hot' or not and whether you can enter. Personally, I'm a firm believer in flight following whenever I'm on a cross-country. It's not a guarantee, but at least then you have a pretty direct link to a controller to talk to and they can pick up the phone and find out about the moa for you. They're usually very on the ball as far as the current status of MOA's in their area. If they say it's okay, I would have no problem flying through. You're best bet, of course, is to have a file a flight plan and state this intention to a briefer before departing so they can make sure it's inactive well before you get there.
Mark Scott
Elkton, MD

[quote]-------------- Original message --------------
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

Quote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson

In reading Guy's trip report, and finding Thunder Ridge on my Phoenix
chart, it reminded me that I'll have a lot of MOA's to deal with
crossing the country. Right now I don't have my radio
endorsement...I'm hoping to get with my instructor before I go to Sun
'n' Fun to sign me off. So what is the group's experience with
dealing with MOA's? Go around, go through with radio calls, go
through with crossed fingers....what?

Lynn
do not archive
[b]


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Mark Scott
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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:50 am    Post subject: Cross country/MOA's/Thunder Ridge Reply with quote

Being north of the 49th and the snow line:-) I'm not sure what MOAs are

Noel

[quote] --


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Guy Buchanan



Joined: 16 Jul 2006
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Location: Ramona, CA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:07 am    Post subject: Cross country/MOA's/Thunder Ridge Reply with quote

At 03:42 AM 4/9/2007, you wrote:
Quote:
So what is the group's experience with
dealing with MOA's? Go around, go through with radio calls, go
through with crossed fingers....what?

When I'm flying cross country alone I fly for best winds, usually
relatively high, and I use flight following. As such I can easily
determine whether an MOA or even restricted area is "hot" by asking
ATC. If hot I'll stay out. I generally plan to stay out anyway, but
sometimes it's too difficult / dangerous a routing to stay out of an
MOA so I'll stay low and keep my eyes open.
Guy Buchanan
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 100% done, thanks mostly to Bob Ducar.


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mscotter



Joined: 15 Jan 2006
Posts: 49
Location: Winston-Salem, NC

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:19 am    Post subject: Cross country/MOA's/Thunder Ridge Reply with quote

MOA's: Military operational areas. These are generally training areas that may be under part- or full-time use by our country's military. They are shown on charts and while private pilots are not restricted from this airspace, one does have to take care and exercise caution when entering one. You stand the potential of having some very high-speed traffic in your vicinity. If you talk to Air Traffic Control and confirm that there are no operations in the area before you traverse it you will be fine.


[quote]-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca>

Quote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys"

Being north of the 49th and the snow line:-) I'm not sure what MOAs are

Noel
[b]


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Mark Scott
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:33 am    Post subject: Cross country/MOA's/Thunder Ridge Reply with quote

Here's another 2 cents worth Lynn.

I live in (actually under) the Hersey MOA. I fly from Evart (9C8), also under the MOA. All summer long, ANG A-10's periodically dogfight overhead at, I'd guess, about 10kft agl.

The book says that if you operate below 5kft agl you're below their playground, tho I have seen them fly over in transit to/from Camp Grayling much lower than that.

There's a good article about safe flying in MOAs in the Feb. issue of Sport Aviation, referencing www.SeeAndAvoid.org as a resource to find out about a particular MOA.

Marco


mscotter(at)comcast.net wrote:
[quote] Hi Lynn, I'll give you one guy's opinion on the matter.
You can always look up the controlling agency for that MOA on the chart as well as the normal hours of operation (listed on the bottom of the chart, isn't it?), and that is definitely a good idea. I personally would never enter an MOA without talking with atc and asking whether that area is 'hot' or not and whether you can enter. Personally, I'm a firm believer in flight following whenever I'm on a cross-country. It's not a guarantee, but at least then you have a pretty direct link to a controller to talk to and they can pick up the phone and find out about the moa for you. They're usually very on the ball as far as the current status of MOA's in their area. If they say it's okay, I would have no problem flying through. You're best bet, of course, is to have a file a flight plan and state this intention to a briefer before departing so they can make sure it's inactive well before you get there.
Mark Scott
Elkton, MD

[quote]-------------- Original message --------------
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

Quote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Lynn Matteson

In reading Guy's trip report, and finding Thunder Ridge on my Phoenix
chart, it reminded me that I'll have a lot of MOA's to deal with
crossing the country. Right now I don't have my radio
endorsement...I'm hoping to get with my instructor before I go to Sun
'n' Fun to sign me off. So what is the group's experience with
dealing with MOA's? Go around, go through with radio calls, go
through with crossed fingers....what?

Lynn
do not archive
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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:07 am    Post subject: Cross country/MOA's/Thunder Ridge Reply with quote

Thanks for that scary reminder, Bob. I've got the xponder in panel,
as well as an Icom 200, and a backup handheld radio.
How'd the Kitfox handle the wash from the jets?

Lynn
do not archive
On Apr 9, 2007, at 9:00 AM, Bob wrote:

Quote:


Got buzzed by a pair of F-4 Phantoms (showing my age here) and
don't want to EVER have that happen again. I absolutely believe in
squawking 1200 and telling whoever is listed as the controlling
agency (see bottom of the sectional chart) that I'm there!

BTW, a transponder and antenna can work just fine on a battery! We
have a electric-less Champ at our airport that runs the xpdr and an
Icom off an Odyssey motorcycle battery.

Bob

--------
Remember that internet advice may only be worth what you pay.


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=105842#105842




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Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM
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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:18 am    Post subject: Cross country/MOA's/Thunder Ridge Reply with quote

Thanks for the reminder, Mark...I had completely forgotten about
those "special use airspace" notes on the charts. Just goes to show
what having a GPS on board does to you...makes you (me) lazy.
I was looking at my plane this morning, and thinking "what if I were
a jet jocky and saw this small orange plane with a big #3 on the tail
(or a big E if looking at the other side)...would I think it was a
little drone...to be shot at?" hmmmm.....

I'll get more input from my instructor when the time draws near, but
thanks to all who responded in the mentime.

Lynn
do not archive
On Apr 9, 2007, at 9:54 AM, mscotter(at)comcast.net wrote:

Quote:
Hi Lynn, I'll give you one guy's opinion on the matter.
You can always look up the controlling agency for that MOA on the
chart as well as the normal hours of operation (listed on the
bottom of the chart, isn't it?), and that is definitely a good
idea. I personally would never enter an MOA without talking with
atc and asking whether that area is 'hot' or not and whether you
can enter. Personally, I'm a firm believer in flight following
whenever I'm on a cross-country. It's not a guarantee, but at
least then you have a pretty direct link to a controller to talk to
and they can pick up the phone and find out about the moa for you.
They're usually very on the ball as far as the current status of
MOA's in their area. If they say it's okay, I would have no
problem flying through. You're best bet, of course, is to have a
file a flight plan and state this intention to a briefer before
departing so they can make sure it's inactive well before you get
there.
Mark Scott
Elkton, MD

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>

>
>
> In reading Guy's trip report, and finding Thunder Ridge on my
Phoenix
> chart, it reminded me that I'll have a lot of MOA's to deal with
> crossing the country. Right now I don't have my radio
> endorsement...I'm hoping to get with my instructor before I go to
Sun
> 'n' Fun to sign me off. So what is the group's experience with
> dealing with MOA's? Go around, go through with radio calls, go
> through with crossed fingers....what?
>
> Lynn
> do not archive
www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List _-
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rjdaugh



Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:20 pm    Post subject: Cross country/MOA's/Thunder Ridge Reply with quote

I live near Ellsworth Air Force base. Half of the nation's B-1's are based
here. There is an MAO in southeast Montana where they practice, among other
things, low altitude terrain following. I have often seen them (always
from a car so far!) at altitudes much lower than 1000'. And they are
moving FAST.

I have flown through there, but only when it is inactive. I would hate to
run into their wake turbulence.

Incidently, in couple of weeks the Air Force is going to let civilians land
at Ellsworth. I am looking forward to that. It will be a kick to land on a
runway that's over 2.5 miles long. I wonder if they would let me land
across the runway????

Randy

.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:55 pm    Post subject: Cross country/MOA's/Thunder Ridge Reply with quote

Many years ago I got to fly in MOA's in both speed
regimes - helos and later jets. Sometimes they are in
the same place at the same time covering a lot of
space. I also was a MOA military scheduler for a few
years out in California.

In the helos, you might be doing anything from hide
and hover to 160 knots picking up tree branches and
climbing over fences. Nap-of-the-earth it is called
and necessary training for desert environments.

In the jets, 360-420 knots at a few feet higher is
quite normal. Back then we crossed a ridge line by
pulling up and rolling inverted. As you came to the
top you were already pulling down towards the ground,
upside down to stay low. Very scarry stuff and not
much room for error. (Now they go over sideways)
This is necessary to reduce exposure to ground fire
and rockets.

In each case, you are very busy and don't have a lot
of time to look anywhere except where you are going.
You don't have a lot of leeway for an object to move
into your path. A slow moving Fox would look almost
stationary to a jet, so you don't see it until you are
within a few seconds of impact. If youj don't see
movement, it blends into the background.

We sometimes had a civilian fly thru during
engagements and found them to be at greater risk then
they ever realized. But the rules are rules and they
could go at their own risk. But it was our risk too!

So basically I sty out of them now. If I have to go
in, I talk to someone all the way across and keep a
lookout.

One time when I was flying a C-130, I looked over at
the copilot just in time to see a C-141 diving under
his window. Near miss! I called the controller and
he said, "Maintain VFR". They don't really control
it, just monitor it ya' know.

Kurt S.

Get your own web address.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL


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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:02 pm    Post subject: Cross country/MOA's/Thunder Ridge Reply with quote

Those areas are also on our charts.. I don't think they have the same name but operations are generally posted as NOTAMs. I'm not too sure about the area in northern Labrador where all the NATO countries used to practice low and fast flying..... very low and very fast. In that area a higher altitude with a transponder would be much safer.



Noel [quote]
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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 5:05 pm    Post subject: Cross country/MOA's/Thunder Ridge Reply with quote

Lower than 1000' ... In Labrador they would be considered high at 100' and
I'm sure they trained a lot lower than that.

Noel

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